The NationStates Feminism Thread IV: Fight Like A Girl!

[Saiwania]

I don't know how it works for other people, but every relationship I've ever been in has started with me just talking to people, about things that aren't necessarily "would you like to be my girlfriend?" It was more like, "hey, what did you think of that movie?" or something. You know, normal conversation.

Like, we're not peacocks. You don't have to approach "the female" and do a courtship display where you show off your symmetrical features and lack of parasites, and express your desire to mate.

The point is that if someone does too much conversation before springing it on them, that they'll be too deep into what's informally called someone's "friend zone" even if it doesn't literally exist. If you're only considered a friend, and the desire to escalate is only one sided, of course he going to be rejected when had he done things differently, maybe he wouldn't have been rejected at some point in the past but his window of opportunity closed permanently.

[Cekoviu]

I don't know how it works for other people, but every relationship I've ever been in has started with me just talking to people, about things that aren't necessarily "would you like to be my girlfriend?" It was more like, "hey, what did you think of that movie?" or something. You know, normal conversation.

Like, we're not peacocks. You don't have to approach "the female" and do a courtship display where you show off your symmetrical features and lack of parasites, and express your desire to mate.

The point is that if someone does too much conversation before springing it on them, that they'll be too deep into what's informally called someone's "friend zone" even if it doesn't literally exist. If you're only considered a friend, and the desire to escalate is only one sided, of course he going to be rejected when had he done things differently, maybe he wouldn't have been rejected at some point in the past but his window of opportunity closed permanently.

maybe he wouldnt have been rejected but would that relationship have lasted ? i'd say No. either way, you'll decide someone's not worth dating after knowing them for a while. if that happens when u ask a friend out it would still happen in a relationship without a preexisting friendship.

you seem to be overlooking this cuz you're making the assumption that all relationships are permanent and the only thing that matters is initial rejection or acceptance which is not true, you have to continually work and be good enough for the other person and if you aren't it's your fault for getting the boot.

[USS Monitor]

If women broadly speaking, had to choose between men approaching them for courtship or for men to not bother at all anymore, which would it be?

I'd find this to be an intriguing question. Keep in mind that in choosing one over the other, you have to accept all of the downsides that go with it and not only the upside. If men are expected to do all of the initiation for courtship like tradition dictates, then there is the chance that a woman will have to reject an undesirable guy's advances. If men don't bother to approach women anymore, it may be harder for women to find any of the guys they'd prefer which tends to be those men who aren't afraid to make a move or are a conversationalist of some sort.

i'd easily pick the latter and im pretty sure most women would

Not sure about that.

I think most women are OK being asked out if it's a question: "Do you want to go out with me?" I'm OK with it anyway.

The problem is when it's an implied demand and someone won't take no for an answer, or if they go straight to vulgar sexual stuff right off the bat.

[USS Monitor]

I once threatened to shove a guy off his bike into oncoming traffic because he not only had his dick out and was jerking off in the middle of the sidewalk -- he had already rode past me, made a u-turn, and came back for a second pass.

He did not come back for a 3rd pass.

Holy shit, sorry you had to deal with that creep at all but good on you for being assertive, he deserved it.

I've heard so many stories from my friends about guys being awful like that and the precautions they take to avoid them. It's so disgustingly infuriating to hear these stories, knowing that people like that are traumatizing my friends and peers so much that they have to prepare for them whenever they go outside.

Being willing to cuss people out loudly when they deserve it is the best precaution.

[Alcala-Cordel]

If women broadly speaking, had to choose between men approaching them for courtship or for men to not bother at all anymore, which would it be?

I'd find this to be an intriguing question. Keep in mind that in choosing one over the other, you have to accept all of the downsides that go with it and not only the upside. If men are expected to do all of the initiation for courtship like tradition dictates, then there is the chance that a woman will have to reject an undesirable guy's advances. If men don't bother to approach women anymore, it may be harder for women to find any of the guys they'd prefer which tends to be those men who aren't afraid to make a move or are a conversationalist of some sort.

It's very easy to not be a sexual predator, and if your way of finding relationships is dehumanizing and predatory then you're doing something really wrong.

If I think I might want a relationship with someone I try to make friends with them first, and it generally works itself out that way. I've made some of my best friends that way, and if I decide that I want a more romantic relationship after that then I'll ask them, and they say no I respect that. Successful relationships can only happen with mutual respect and friendship.

[Northern Socialist Council Republics]

Oh, hey, Cekoviu is debating Saiwania again. How does that quote go? Right. Too bad they can’t both lose.

And by goodness, Saiwania, here’s another reminder that something being is not in itself a sufficient case towards it having to be. ‘We should adapt to reality as it currently exists because it currently exists’ is a valid point, but ‘we should defend reality as it currently exists because it currently exists’ is not.

---

With regards the whole catcalling issue, Gallo’s perspective makes the most intuitive sense to me. Both parties interact with the other as they would themselves like to be interacted with, which is not necessarily what the other party desires. That being said, in the absence of evidence it is just a hypothesis and I’m not at all sure how one might go about demonstrating this; maybe someone can do a study on the prevalence of catcalling among sexual minorities and do an analysis of that?

I’ve never been catcalled, so I can’t really say how that feels for me.

[Saiwania]

you seem to be overlooking this cuz you're making the assumption that all relationships are permanent and the only thing that matters is initial rejection or acceptance which is not true, you have to continually work and be good enough for the other person and if you aren't it's your fault for getting the boot.

Relationships aren't permanent but shouldn't be so freely discarded if there is still just enough value in it left to be had for the other person. It is ideally give and take for both sides but isn't always so.

If a woman is picky enough to insist that her man keep being perfect, he's probably going to hold her to the same standard. No one will be 100% of what anyone wants and will have flaws of some sort more often than not. Its a packaged deal where its all or nothing. A person decides what they'll tolerate and what they won't over the long term.

I don't agree at all with the notion that someone has to or should give into all of someone's demands or they'll break everything off. If they're unlikely to find someone else compatible again, their bluff should be called.

[USS Monitor]

you seem to be overlooking this cuz you're making the assumption that all relationships are permanent and the only thing that matters is initial rejection or acceptance which is not true, you have to continually work and be good enough for the other person and if you aren't it's your fault for getting the boot.

Relationships aren't permanent but shouldn't be so freely discarded if there is still just enough value in it left to be had for the other person. It is ideally give and take for both sides but isn't always so.

If a woman is picky enough to insist that her man keep being perfect, he's probably going to hold her to the same standard. No one will be 100% of what anyone wants and will have flaws of some sort more often than not. Its a packaged deal where its all or nothing. A person decides what they'll tolerate and what they won't over the long term.

I don't agree at all with the notion that someone has to or should give into all of someone's demands or they'll break everything off. If they're unlikely to find someone else compatible again, their bluff should be called.

What does this have to do with anything?

[The Free Joy State]

Relationships aren't permanent but shouldn't be so freely discarded if there is still just enough value in it left to be had for the other person. It is ideally give and take for both sides but isn't always so.

If a woman is picky enough to insist that her man keep being perfect, he's probably going to hold her to the same standard. No one will be 100% of what anyone wants and will have flaws of some sort more often than not. Its a packaged deal where its all or nothing. A person decides what they'll tolerate and what they won't over the long term.

I don't agree at all with the notion that someone has to or should give into all of someone's demands or they'll break everything off. If they're unlikely to find someone else compatible again, their bluff should be called.

What does this have to do with anything?

Clearly your standards are too high if you wouldn't wait to see if the man getting off in a public street had inner beauty. Clearly. /s

i'd easily pick the latter and im pretty sure most women would

Not sure about that.

I think most women are OK being asked out if it's a question: "Do you want to go out with me?" I'm OK with it anyway.

The problem is when it's an implied demand and someone won't take no for an answer, or if they go straight to vulgar sexual stuff right off the bat.

Yes, there is a qualitative difference in someone asking if you'll go out with them (then taking no for an answer), and a sleazy guy making remarks about your body or following you shouting lewd suggestions or groping you. The former is fine, the latter is harassment and suggests a sense of entitlement.

[Neutraligon]

Had someone follow me in a car while I was walking home once. Then he called out asking me if he could suck my boob...ugh

[USS Monitor]

Had someone follow me in a car while I was walking home once. Then he called out asking me if he could suck my boob...ugh

Ewww....

[Neutraligon]

Had someone follow me in a car while I was walking home once. Then he called out asking me if he could suck my boob...ugh

Ewww....

very much ewww. I've had other experiences but that one creeped me out the most because he kept following me.

[The Free Joy State]

Ewww....

very much ewww. I've had other experiences but that one creeped me out the most because he kept following me.

The first time two creepers asked me to show them a certain part of my anatomy, I was wearing my primary uniform. They followed me to a neighbours house (someone I knew, obv.) where I ran inside. That is the creepiest incident I ever had, though it has competition.

Attempts to paint catcalling as innocent flirting never fails to ring hollow to me.

[New haven america]

Had a guy and girl follow me around for ~6 months.

Even when to the store one time then drove home, and the guy (Who doesn't live nearby as far as I know) passed by my house after I got back nd stared though my indow. Not even sure how he figured out where I live. Pretty sure it was the girl who kept egging him on though.

[New haven america]

Oh, hey, Cekoviu is debating Saiwania again. How does that quote go? Right. Too bad they can’t both lose.

And by goodness, Saiwania, here’s another reminder that something being is not in itself a sufficient case towards it having to be. ‘We should adapt to reality as it currently exists because it currently exists’ is a valid point, but ‘we should defend reality as it currently exists because it currently exists’ is not.

---

With regards the whole catcalling issue, Gallo’s perspective makes the most intuitive sense to me. Both parties interact with the other as they would themselves like to be interacted with, which is not necessarily what the other party desires. That being said, in the absence of evidence it is just a hypothesis and I’m not at all sure how one might go about demonstrating this; maybe someone can do a study on the prevalence of catcalling among sexual minorities and do an analysis of that?

I’ve never been catcalled, so I can’t really say how that feels for me.

Sure they can.

[The Free Joy State]

*snip*

With regards the whole catcalling issue, Gallo’s perspective makes the most intuitive sense to me. Both parties interact with the other as they would themselves like to be interacted with, which is not necessarily what the other party desires. That being said, in the absence of evidence it is just a hypothesis and I’m not at all sure how one might go about demonstrating this; maybe someone can do a study on the prevalence of catcalling among sexual minorities and do an analysis of that?

I’ve never been catcalled, so I can’t really say how that feels for me.

There is at least some evidence that the majority of men do not see catcalling as appropriate all, most or even any of the time.

The British Social Attitudes Survey (2018) on more than 3000 adults found that only 9% of all adults they surveyed viewed uninvited male comments about a woman's appearance "rarely" (7%) or "never" (2%) wrong. 61% of men viewed it as "always" or "usually" wrong (interestingly a smaller proportion of women, 52%, did). Meanwhile, the opposite pattern occurs when asking about unsolicited comments about the personal appearance of men: 54% of women say it is "always" or "usually" wrong, compared to 35% of men.

The link leads to that detailed chapter on gender -- the Social Attitudes Survey is broken up into sections: the full report can be found here; the gender section that leads to the linked chapter is here.

[Saiwania]

Attempts to paint catcalling as innocent flirting never fails to ring hollow to me.

That is still essentially what they're trying to do, even if the methods are very incompetent or disasterously bad. At the end of the day, they're doing that because they don't truly know what they're doing, whilst they're too horny/perverted for their own good and ideally; its a phase they mature out of eventually, although it isn't a given. It could also be that someone has mental or behavioral problems, there are just too many reasons for why people do what they do.

In any case, perhaps I'm not like most people in that it frustrates me more that the only/primary way people typically connect verbally, is via small talk or mundane, random topics. Crap like hobbies or what's going on at their work, favorite media series and etc.

I find it more refreshing for people to skip the crap and tell me upfront why they really are talking to me. If they can tell me what they want. Chances are I don't want to feel the burden of keeping a conversation going for too long, and I won't be too interested in the story someone is telling me if I likely won't remember most of it off the top of my head later on. Its all nonsense formalities to me. Only done because its whats expected. I can't blame them though, because I'm no better off if I were in the role of initiating conversation. I get that its at least something to go off of in terms of building some rapport.

[Pasong Tirad]

Had a friend and her friend (now my acquaintance) come up to me and my partner while we were at a McDonald's going like "There you guys are! We've been looking everywhere for you." Fortunately, my partner was able to pick up on the situation immediately and responded in kind. I understood the situation quickly enough as well, and sure enough a moment later two sketchy-looking dudes were following them and were unsure of what to do.

We stayed with them until another friend of ours with a car arrived. We drove the two to a safe place and left. They talked to us later about the experience and how traumatic it was. Apparently, one of the guys was hitting on one of them and couldn't take the hint that they weren't interested. The dudes followed them out of the bar. Fortunately, my partner and I were close by grabbing dinner at McDonald's.

My partner's also been harassed a bunch. It sucks that there's not a lot I can do to help other than to be there for her after the fact. But she's made it clear she can take care of herself, and she does say she regularly yells at guys who leer or who say disgusting things at her.

[Auzkhia]

very much ewww. I've had other experiences but that one creeped me out the most because he kept following me.

The first time two creepers asked me to show them a certain part of my anatomy, I was wearing my primary uniform. They followed me to a neighbours house (someone I knew, obv.) where I ran inside. That is the creepiest incident I ever had, though it has competition.

Attempts to paint catcalling as innocent flirting never fails to ring hollow to me.

I mean, based on my experiences.

I think the gas station isn't a place to spark romantic interest in a rando especially if you slur your into asking me about my marital status and then wheeze out how you're the total package. Like, my sexuality is confused slutbag but sometimes, get this, I just wanna be unbothered.

I wish I had the confidence a sloppy mediocre man.

Oh and sometimes they just outright say slurs, in fact that's my first experience of street harassment, since age 13, though it was homophobic slurs, which is funny because I wasn't gay (But a deeply repressed trans lesbian lol)

[Cekoviu]

you seem to be overlooking this cuz you're making the assumption that all relationships are permanent and the only thing that matters is initial rejection or acceptance which is not true, you have to continually work and be good enough for the other person and if you aren't it's your fault for getting the boot.

Relationships aren't permanent but shouldn't be so freely discarded if there is still just enough value in it left to be had for the other person. It is ideally give and take for both sides but isn't always so.

relationships are a two-person game. the first person to be so unhappy with how it's going that they would rather break it off outweighs the other party. you can't force somebody to stay in a relationship because the other person still wants it LOL. but i don't see how this really relates to the actual argument.

If a woman is picky enough to insist that her man keep being perfect, he's probably going to hold her to the same standard. No one will be 100% of what anyone wants and will have flaws of some sort more often than not. Its a packaged deal where its all or nothing. A person decides what they'll tolerate and what they won't over the long term.

I don't agree at all with the notion that someone has to or should give into all of someone's demands or they'll break everything off. If they're unlikely to find someone else compatible again, their bluff should be called.

what the hell are you talking about? your perception of relationships is so insanely warped i don't think it's possible to engage in productive dialogue here. i pity you, really.

Oh, hey, Cekoviu is debating Saiwania again. How does that quote go? Right. Too bad they can’t both lose.

guy who's so hostile to women's rights that he thinks the incel white supremacist and i are on equal footing

Attempts to paint catcalling as innocent flirting never fails to ring hollow to me.

That is still essentially what they're trying to do, even if the methods are very incompetent or disasterously bad. At the end of the day, they're doing that because they don't truly know what they're doing, whilst they're too horny/perverted for their own good and ideally; its a phase they mature out of eventually, although it isn't a given. It could also be that someone has mental or behavioral problems, there are just too many reasons for why people do what they do.

no, it really isn't. catcalling isn't an attempt to get with a random woman walking by. men are smart enough to know that won't work. at best it's a disastrous attempt at a compliment, at worst it's a game of intimidation meant solely to make women feel bad, and i'm willing to hazard a guess that most cases lean towards the latter end of the spectrum. but it's never meant to spark a real relationship.

and i think you're projecting on the mental disorder part, because:

In any case, perhaps I'm not like most people in that it frustrates me more that the only/primary way people typically connect verbally, is via small talk or mundane, random topics. Crap like hobbies or what's going on at their work, favorite media series and etc.

I find it more refreshing for people to skip the crap and tell me upfront why they really are talking to me. If they can tell me what they want. Chances are I don't want to feel the burden of keeping a conversation going for too long, and I won't be too interested in the story someone is telling me if I likely won't remember most of it off the top of my head later on. Its all nonsense formalities to me. Only done because its whats expected. I can't blame them though, because I'm no better off if I were in the role of initiating conversation. I get that its at least something to go off of in terms of building some rapport.

that's not normal, like, you realize that that's a symptom of autism or a personality disorder, right? plenty of people don't like small talk, i don't necessarily mean that, it's just the way you're talking about it.

[Celritannia]

Attempts to paint catcalling as innocent flirting never fails to ring hollow to me.

That is still essentially what they're trying to do, even if the methods are very incompetent or disasterously bad. At the end of the day, they're doing that because they don't truly know what they're doing, whilst they're too horny/perverted for their own good and ideally; its a phase they mature out of eventually, although it isn't a given. It could also be that someone has mental or behavioral problems, there are just too many reasons for why people do what they do.

People with mental and behavioural problems would not do that if they know how to respect people.

As someone with mental problems, please stop promoting this idiotic concept.

[Saiwania]

People with mental and behavioural problems would not do that if they know how to respect people.

They don't and have no shame, that is what I'd say is the problem. I doubt anyone just tries to get a rise out of people in person hoping they'll get an angry response. Its more that they're looking for the rare person that's more flattered than offended if their efforts are pitiful and desperate.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

That is still essentially what they're trying to do, even if the methods are very incompetent or disasterously bad. At the end of the day, they're doing that because they don't truly know what they're doing, whilst they're too horny/perverted for their own good and ideally; its a phase they mature out of eventually, although it isn't a given. It could also be that someone has mental or behavioral problems, there are just too many reasons for why people do what they do.

People with mental and behavioural problems would not do that if they know how to respect people.

As someone with mental problems, please stop promoting this idiotic concept.

Or have gotten proper treatment for their conditions.

[Celritannia]

People with mental and behavioural problems would not do that if they know how to respect people.

They don't and have no shame, that is what I'd say is the problem. I doubt anyone just tries to get a rise out of people in person hoping they'll get an angry response. Its more that they're looking for the rare person that's more flattered than offended if their efforts are pitiful and desperate.

Do you mean like how you can't get a date, so you post in here?

[Saiwania]

Do you mean like how you can't get a date, so you post in here?

I post here because its full of interesting discussion on a complex topic. So far as my real situation goes, I don't even try to put myself out there because I view the risks as outweighing any benefits to be had. I never truly tried if I'm being honest. I had chances I passed on in the past but don't get chances anymore generally speaking.

I don't care about romance in general beyond the theoretical. I'm more content to observe what other people are doing and watching them succeed/fail as opposed to experiencing anything myself good or bad. Its not for me so long as I have an income problem anyways. There are more reasons for me to not trust anyone enough to let them figure out that I'm not fully independent or have all the trappings that people expect or take for granted.

It has served me well to instead just put on a good show in a "fake it until you make it" sort of way when I do pull it off.