The NationStates Feminism Thread IV: Fight Like A Girl!

[Theberstan]

1. I did, and I don't agree with your comparison.

And is that to do with feminism?
Education as a whole need a dramatic update, thats how we will improve children and young people.'
There is more to do with the a fall of Working Class boys in school than feminism. In fact, the lowest achieves are travellers, as the article mentioned.

More often, men are the ones who tell boys not to cry.

So if it is not true of all women and moths, why are you trying to suggest it is a epidemic?
Each family is different, and the reasons for divorce etc will be different for each.

2. And the majority of rape is still carried out by men against both women and men. Sexual assault against men is a danger, I have not disagreed with that. But you are trying to down play the problem .

3. I edited my post.

I've explained to you what it's to do with feminism.

The fatherlessness epidemic is another issue related to this and caused by feminism, as is the widespread psychological abuse of boys by mothers that feminism has warped discussion of by taking the results and blaming patriarchy for it rather than their threat narrative against men, and failing to examine womens prejudices and hatred for men sufficiently without linking it back to patriarchy theory despite them being based in a very different framework (Feminist paranoia and resentment). See the "Boys must be beaten" study from India to understand why mothers punish boys for expressing emotions; in their own words it is to prevent them from being "volatile" and growing up to be controlling and abusive. This also happens in the west, but psychologically rather than with physical beatings. Women perceive a girl throwing a tantrum as "strong" and "empowered", but a boy doing so as "dangerous" and so on.

All of that feeds into how mothers are crippling their children, not much different than if it was widespread for fathers to beat girls when they tried to read and then we all blamed "Toxic femininity and womens stupid ideas about what it means to be a woman" for them falling behind in schools. Emotional literacy is one of the major skills necessary for schooling, and mothers actively curtail it in their sons. Feminism prevents acknowledgement of that and confronting it through its framing of these issues, as well as its endless and trite glorification of single motherhood, women, and so on, and the threat narrative they continue to peddle about male violence that causes these mothers to abuse their children in the first place.

Those are just *some* examples of how feminism has caused this crisis. There are many more.

Here.

The fatherlessness epidemic is directed related to feminist activism through the 70s, 80s, and 90s, and continues due to their refusal to reverse the cultural and policy changes they brought about.

"Policing as a whole needs an overhaul, so let's we should downplay racism in the policeforce as a discussion that needs to happen.".

More often, men are the ones who tell boys not to cry.

This is feminist misinformation and revealing of their hateful prejudices and assumptions, and how patriarchy theory routinely causes them to assume this kind of thing because it is fundamentally a sexist worldview.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/sci-tech/boys-do ... -1.4693208

2. No. The most you can say is a plurality of rape is committed by men against women, and only during some years. Other years demonstrate parity. And again, that's despite the many problems with recording male victimization we have extensively covered. Some years show more male rape victims than female ones.

3. I'll look for it now.

And why do men work longer? Is this because of feminism, or the capitalistic society?
None of this says why women should be paid less than men.

Because of feminist activism through the 70s, 80s, and 90s, their demonization of fatherhood and how this impacted popular culture, opposition to the mens rights and fathers rights movements, and their misframing of the cause of the wage gap. This means men have a fundamental aspect of their humanity denied to them and do not have the same work-life balance options as women do. As a consequence, they work longer hours and more overtime, and end up with more money.

Do you think a part-time worker should be paid the same as a full-time worker?

No obviously the reason they are not paid the same is found in how much they work. You just got to look super closely and maybe you’ll find it.

[Ostroeuropa]

3. So you have no evidence to provide? Very well then.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... gap-report

https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlab ... theuk/2019

First link discusses the general pay gap, not "Paid less for the same job" as you demanded when I pointed out that men earn less than women right up until children enter the picture.

So does the second.

So now we're back to discussing wages in general, here you go:

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2015/ ... tudy-finds

Women are paid more than men right up until those women have children. They then shift into work-life balance because as I have repeatedly pointed out, men are treated far worse than women are when they take those options.

This is because feminist activism and gynocentrism in our society actually *overvalues womens work compared to mens*, precisely the opposite of what feminists would have you believe. This is also why women who do not have children out-earn men.

[Celritannia]

1. I did, and I don't agree with your comparison.

And is that to do with feminism?
Education as a whole need a dramatic update, thats how we will improve children and young people.'
There is more to do with the a fall of Working Class boys in school than feminism. In fact, the lowest achieves are travellers, as the article mentioned.

More often, men are the ones who tell boys not to cry.

So if it is not true of all women and moths, why are you trying to suggest it is a epidemic?
Each family is different, and the reasons for divorce etc will be different for each.

2. And the majority of rape is still carried out by men against both women and men. Sexual assault against men is a danger, I have not disagreed with that. But you are trying to down play the problem .

3. I edited my post.

I've explained to you what it's to do with feminism.

The fatherlessness epidemic is another issue related to this and caused by feminism, as is the widespread psychological abuse of boys by mothers that feminism has warped discussion of by taking the results and blaming patriarchy for it rather than their threat narrative against men, and failing to examine womens prejudices and hatred for men sufficiently without linking it back to patriarchy theory despite them being based in a very different framework (Feminist paranoia and resentment). See the "Boys must be beaten" study from India to understand why mothers punish boys for expressing emotions; in their own words it is to prevent them from being "volatile" and growing up to be controlling and abusive. This also happens in the west, but psychologically rather than with physical beatings. Women perceive a girl throwing a tantrum as "strong" and "empowered", but a boy doing so as "dangerous" and so on.

All of that feeds into how mothers are crippling their children, not much different than if it was widespread for fathers to beat girls when they tried to read and then we all blamed "Toxic femininity and womens stupid ideas about what it means to be a woman" for them falling behind in schools. Emotional literacy is one of the major skills necessary for schooling, and mothers actively curtail it in their sons. Feminism prevents acknowledgement of that and confronting it through its framing of these issues, as well as its endless and trite glorification of single motherhood, women, and so on, and the threat narrative they continue to peddle about male violence that causes these mothers to abuse their children in the first place.

Those are just *some* examples of how feminism has caused this crisis. There are many more.

Here.

The fatherlessness epidemic is directed related to feminist activism through the 70s, 80s, and 90s, and continues due to their refusal to reverse the cultural and policy changes they brought about.

"Policing as a whole needs an overhaul, so let's we should downplay racism in the policeforce as a discussion that needs to happen.".

More often, men are the ones who tell boys not to cry.

This is feminist misinformation and revealing of their hateful prejudices and assumptions, and how patriarchy theory routinely causes them to assume this kind of thing because it is fundamentally a sexist worldview.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/sci-tech/boys-do ... -1.4693208

2. No. The most you can say is a plurality of rape is committed by men against women, and only during some years. Other years demonstrate parity. And again, that's despite the many problems with recording male victimization we have extensively covered. Some years show more male rape victims than female ones.

3. I'll look for it now.

1. You edited the post as I moved on, not my fault I didn't see it.
This is heavily emotionally opinionated argument.

While policing does need a overhaul, this is not the same.

And why do mother tell boys not to cry? Because older generation of men were told not to cry by their fathers. It was a cultural concept, established by men.
So instead of blaming women, let's look at destroying these concepts.

2. The fact remain, more men do rape, whether men or women.
Sexual assault of women, which is still a problem, is not are prevalent.

3. good.

[Ostroeuropa]

I've explained to you what it's to do with feminism.


Here.

The fatherlessness epidemic is directed related to feminist activism through the 70s, 80s, and 90s, and continues due to their refusal to reverse the cultural and policy changes they brought about.

"Policing as a whole needs an overhaul, so let's we should downplay racism in the policeforce as a discussion that needs to happen.".


This is feminist misinformation and revealing of their hateful prejudices and assumptions, and how patriarchy theory routinely causes them to assume this kind of thing because it is fundamentally a sexist worldview.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/sci-tech/boys-do ... -1.4693208

2. No. The most you can say is a plurality of rape is committed by men against women, and only during some years. Other years demonstrate parity. And again, that's despite the many problems with recording male victimization we have extensively covered. Some years show more male rape victims than female ones.

3. I'll look for it now.

1. You edited the post as I moved on, not my fault I didn't see it.
This is heavily emotionally opinionated argument.

While policing does need a overhaul, this is not the same.

And why do mother tell boys not to cry? Because older generation of men were told not to cry by their fathers. It was a cultural concept, established by men.
So instead of blaming women, let's look at destroying these concepts.

2. The fact remain, more men do rape, whether men or women.
Sexual assault of women, which is still a problem, is not are prevalent.

3. good.

1. Didn't claim it was your fault.
"Emotionally opinionated", no, it's backed by the studies mentioned therein.

What is your proof this is the case compared to their own stated motivations? They police their emotions to "prevent" them becoming controlling and abusive as adult men, because that is how women see men. That is literally what they tell you when you ask them why they do this, see the "Boys must be beaten" study.
I am looking to destroy the concept at the root of it.

2. Depends on the year.

3. Brb.

[Celritannia]

3. So you have no evidence to provide? Very well then.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... gap-report

https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlab ... theuk/2019

First link discusses the general pay gap, not "Paid less for the same job" as you demanded when I pointed out that men earn less than women right up until children enter the picture.

So does the second.

So now we're back to discussing wages in general, here you go:

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2015/ ... tudy-finds

Women are paid more than men right up until those women have children. They then shift into work-life balance because as I have repeatedly pointed out, men are treated far worse than women are when they take those options.

This is because feminist activism and gynocentrism in our society actually *overvalues womens work compared to mens*, precisely the opposite of what feminists would have you believe. This is also why women who do not have children out-earn men.

Alright, here you go:

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/27/glassdo ... y-gap.html

For the same job?
And the article is still arguing the problems of gender pay gap.

Smethers described the decline in income as a worrying trend. “Women have been suffering [from the economic downturn] more than men because they had even less job security,” she said. “They were more at risk and thus worse hit when the recession struck.”

[Hirota]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/oct/28/women-paid-less-than-men-over-careers-gender-pay-gap-report

https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlab ... theuk/2019

Circling back to this because the "pregnancy gap" bears investigating. There is a growing body of evidence which shows the pay gap for women becomes pronounced after childbirth - Vox does a decent job of summarising some of the studies.

One of your sources can be seen to imply it as well. What happens, around the 22 to 39 mark that a lot of women and men do in the UK?

Correlation does not imply causation, obviously, but there is that growing body of evidence to be fairly confident that childbirth has a pronounced effect on wages. And of course, if women cannot earn because they have just given birth, it makes sense that men transition from part-time to full time work - you can see a suggestion of that in the proportion of male employees working part time jobs.

[Celritannia]

1. You edited the post as I moved on, not my fault I didn't see it.
This is heavily emotionally opinionated argument.

While policing does need a overhaul, this is not the same.

And why do mother tell boys not to cry? Because older generation of men were told not to cry by their fathers. It was a cultural concept, established by men.
So instead of blaming women, let's look at destroying these concepts.

2. The fact remain, more men do rape, whether men or women.
Sexual assault of women, which is still a problem, is not are prevalent.

3. good.

1. Didn't claim it was your fault.
"Emotionally opinionated", no, it's backed by the studies mentioned therein.

What is your proof this is the case compared to their own stated motivations? They police their emotions to "prevent" them becoming controlling and abusive as adult men, because that is how women see men. That is literally what they tell you when you ask them why they do this, see the "Boys must be beaten" study.
I am looking to destroy the concept at the root of it.

2. Depends on the year.

3. Brb.

1. But you are being heavily opinionated on the subject, and overly emotional about it.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/48379047

Throughout history, emotional tears have been considered a weakness in many cultures, and it is often seen as a more feminine thing to do.

In the past, masculinity - behaviour associated with men and boys - suggested that all boys should be strong, brave and confident, and boys should not act in a way which is considered 'feminine'.

2. Not really.

[West Leas Oros 2]

Cek really went off the pseudointellectual deep-end this time.

[Celritannia]

Cek really went off the pseudointellectual deep-end this time.

I saw, it's why I tend not to debate with her now.

[West Leas Oros 2]

Cek really went off the pseudointellectual deep-end this time.

I saw, it's why I tend not to debate with her now.

Although I would enjoy someone peer-reviewing that "study".

The methodology is poor, the sources are practically non-existent, and of course, it's biased as all hell.

[Wink Wonk We Like Stonks]

I saw, it's why I tend not to debate with her now.

Although I would enjoy someone peer-reviewing that "study".

The methodology is poor, the sources are practically non-existent, and of course, it's biased as all hell.

the abstract was the only nice part, though that's up to personal interpretation.

[Celritannia]

Although I would enjoy someone peer-reviewing that "study".

The methodology is poor, the sources are practically non-existent, and of course, it's biased as all hell.

the abstract was the only nice part, though that's up to personal interpretation.

I liked the spreadsheet, but then again, I do like a good spreadsheet.

[West Leas Oros 2]

Although I would enjoy someone peer-reviewing that "study".

The methodology is poor, the sources are practically non-existent, and of course, it's biased as all hell.

the abstract was the only nice part, though that's up to personal interpretation.

Abstract is good.

But can we seriously stop for a moment and appreciate that Cek took 5 hours out of her day to comb through posts, slap together some numbers, and then try to "mathematically prove" that she is great and we're all terrible.

Richard as Well as Mortimer reference?

[Wink Wonk We Like Stonks]

the abstract was the only nice part, though that's up to personal interpretation.

Abstract is good.

But can we seriously stop for a moment and appreciate that Cek took 5 hours out of her day to comb through posts, slap together some numbers, and then try to "mathematically prove" that she is great and we're all terrible.

Richard as Well as Mortimer reference?

"richard as well as mortimer" im-

i have to assume she either found it entertaining or thought people would actually fall for it i kinda fell for it but then again i didn't really understand any of it because im not in college doing research type stuff, which was probably the intended effect. i bet the majority of that time was spend reading the articles that ostro regularly posts, if it even did actually take five hours.

[West Leas Oros 2]

Abstract is good.

But can we seriously stop for a moment and appreciate that Cek took 5 hours out of her day to comb through posts, slap together some numbers, and then try to "mathematically prove" that she is great and we're all terrible.

Richard as Well as Mortimer reference?

"richard as well as mortimer" im-

i have to assume she either found it entertaining or thought people would actually fall for it i kinda fell for it but then again i didn't really understand any of it because im not in college doing research type stuff, which was probably the intended effect. i bet the majority of that time was spend reading the articles that ostro regularly posts, if it even did actually take five hours.

I was kind of entertained, and to be fair, it looks almost legit. I almost want to cite it in future discussions.

[Wink Wonk We Like Stonks]

who was given the best inaccurate psych profile? discuss.

[Wink Wonk We Like Stonks]

"richard as well as mortimer" im-

i have to assume she either found it entertaining or thought people would actually fall for it i kinda fell for it but then again i didn't really understand any of it because im not in college doing research type stuff, which was probably the intended effect. i bet the majority of that time was spend reading the articles that ostro regularly posts, if it even did actually take five hours.

I was kind of entertained, and to be fair, it looks almost legit. I almost want to cite it in future discussions.

the formatting was done well, and the psych profiles were amusing. it's a real contrast to her other posts, in the amount of effort and the attempted legitimizing of her views. all that work, just to say ostro was wrong, bully like 4 other people, and then get banned for two weeks.

[West Leas Oros 2]

who was given the best inaccurate psych profile? discuss.

Mine was pretty cool.

WEST LEAS OROS: Introverted, young, rash, not an overthinker. Perhaps left out of activities as a child or currently, hence the overwhelming desire to be included and validated. Likely to be somewhat uncertain about identity and place. Does not appear to be particularly well-versed in history, politics, sociology, or rhetoric; most familiarity with political discourse was likely formed via social media/Internet fora.
Desired perception: Brave, logical, a desirable comrade
Public perception: Neutral - hot-headed, common-sense, overall adequate
Mindset: Pathos

I'm actually pretty extraverted, I'm just bad at it.
Rash, not an overthinker? Yeah, that's fairly accurate.
"Perhaps left out of activities as a child or currently, hence the overwhelming desire to be included and validated." Never have I been so offended by something I absolutely agree with.
"Likely to be somewhat uncertain about identity and place." What does that even mean?
"Does not appear to be particularly well-versed in history, politics, sociology, or rhetoric; most familiarity with political discourse was likely formed via social media/Internet fora." A bold jab.
And yeah, I think desired perception is about right. Honestly, I'm just here because I have a low tolerance for bigots, and someone has to scuffle with bigots.

[Celritannia]

who was given the best inaccurate psych profile? discuss.

Mine was pretty cool.

WEST LEAS OROS: Introverted, young, rash, not an overthinker. Perhaps left out of activities as a child or currently, hence the overwhelming desire to be included and validated. Likely to be somewhat uncertain about identity and place. Does not appear to be particularly well-versed in history, politics, sociology, or rhetoric; most familiarity with political discourse was likely formed via social media/Internet fora.
Desired perception: Brave, logical, a desirable comrade
Public perception: Neutral - hot-headed, common-sense, overall adequate
Mindset: Pathos

I'm actually pretty extraverted, I'm just bad at it.
Rash, not an overthinker? Yeah, that's fairly accurate.
"Perhaps left out of activities as a child or currently, hence the overwhelming desire to be included and validated." Never have I been so offended by something I absolutely agree with.
"Likely to be somewhat uncertain about identity and place." What does that even mean?
"Does not appear to be particularly well-versed in history, politics, sociology, or rhetoric; most familiarity with political discourse was likely formed via social media/Internet fora." A bold jab.
And yeah, I think desired perception is about right. Honestly, I'm just here because I have a low tolerance for bigots, and someone has to scuffle with bigots.

I'm not even on the list

[Wink Wonk We Like Stonks]

who was given the best inaccurate psych profile? discuss.

mine:

"WONK STONKS OR WHATEVER: Extraverted, happy-go-lucky, young. Cheerful, up to date on current culture, well-liked by most. Desired perception: Quirky, unique, fun
Public perception: Positive - "in", friendly, humorous
Mindset: Pathos(?)"

name: incorrect. it's not even a hard name. was this intentional? it doesn't really matter, so i don't really care.
extroverted: correct, but extraverted is not a word
happy-go-lucky: incorrect. the future gives me anxiety, so i just ignore it until it becomes the present. modern problems require modern solutions.
young: correct. that's not psychological tho.
cheerful: very disputable, it depends. generally, i'd say im 4-6/10 on the cheerfulness scale
up to date on current culture: i try.
well-liked-by-most: correct.
desired perception: i guess it's correct.
public perception: well, cek is part of the public, and this doen't seem outlandish, so correct.
pathos mindset: F E E L I N G S

i find it odd that there's nothing negative in it. if i was making a psych profile for myself, i'd definately have some negative things to put in there, and it's not like i was simping for cek or smth, so it doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

[West Leas Oros 2]

who was given the best inaccurate psych profile? discuss.

mine:

"WONK STONKS OR WHATEVER: Extraverted, happy-go-lucky, young. Cheerful, up to date on current culture, well-liked by most. Desired perception: Quirky, unique, fun
Public perception: Positive - "in", friendly, humorous
Mindset: Pathos(?)"

name: incorrect. it's not even a hard name. was this intentional? it doesn't really matter, so i don't really care.
extroverted: correct, but extraverted is not a word
happy-go-lucky: incorrect. the future gives me anxiety, so i just ignore it until it becomes the present. modern problems require modern solutions.
young: correct. that's not psychological tho.
cheerful: very disputable, it depends. generally, i'd say im 4-6/10 on the cheerfulness scale
up to date on current culture: i try.
well-liked-by-most: correct.
desired perception: i guess it's correct.
public perception: well, cek is part of the public, and this doen't seem outlandish, so correct.
pathos mindset: F E E L I N G S

i find it odd that there's nothing negative in it. if i was making a psych profile for myself, i'd definately have some negative things to put in there, and it's not like i was simping for cek or smth, so it doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Honestly, I don't see myself as that much of "pathos", but okay I guess.

[Wink Wonk We Like Stonks]

the unfortunate thing about it is that i can't come to my own conclusion about if ostro is right or wrong because his posts are too long.

[West Leas Oros 2]

the unfortunate thing about it is that i can't come to my own conclusion about if ostro is right or wrong because his posts are too long.

Ostro is wrong. He's occasionally right, but ultimately I think he sees conspiracy and oppression around every corner. Which is a bit ironic, actually.

[Wink Wonk We Like Stonks]

mine:

"WONK STONKS OR WHATEVER: Extraverted, happy-go-lucky, young. Cheerful, up to date on current culture, well-liked by most. Desired perception: Quirky, unique, fun
Public perception: Positive - "in", friendly, humorous
Mindset: Pathos(?)"

name: incorrect. it's not even a hard name. was this intentional? it doesn't really matter, so i don't really care.
extroverted: correct, but extraverted is not a word
happy-go-lucky: incorrect. the future gives me anxiety, so i just ignore it until it becomes the present. modern problems require modern solutions.
young: correct. that's not psychological tho.
cheerful: very disputable, it depends. generally, i'd say im 4-6/10 on the cheerfulness scale
up to date on current culture: i try.
well-liked-by-most: correct.
desired perception: i guess it's correct.
public perception: well, cek is part of the public, and this doen't seem outlandish, so correct.
pathos mindset: F E E L I N G S

i find it odd that there's nothing negative in it. if i was making a psych profile for myself, i'd definately have some negative things to put in there, and it's not like i was simping for cek or smth, so it doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Honestly, I don't see myself as that much of "pathos", but okay I guess.

i don't really get that part. like i know pathos is feeling, logos is logic and ethos is reputable sources, but i don't see how someone could have an ethos mindset. is it supposed to mean how the person tries to convince people of stuff?

[Wink Wonk We Like Stonks]

the unfortunate thing about it is that i can't come to my own conclusion about if ostro is right or wrong because his posts are too long.

Ostro is wrong. He's occasionally right, but ultimately I think he sees conspiracy and oppression around every corner. Which is a bit ironic, actually.

it's interesting because he was talking about gynocentrism existing and being bad, but he's got a female in the center of his flag.