The NationStates Feminism Thread IV: Fight Like A Girl!

[Ostroeuropa]

Why do people get so riled up about not being able to "manspread" on a crowded train or similar? It reduces seating capacity and is annoying. Its not that uncomfortable to keep your legs straight up to provide room for the people sitting next to you

Edit: also, re the first video. Ho do we know that they didn't just take the most extreme feminist videos and use them to paint the entire movement?

using the "man" prefix in this fashion is fairly brazen sexism for one thing.

[Esalia]

I mean how do we get from "please stop taking up several people's worth of space on the bus" to "OMG MEN ARE BEING ELIMINATED FEMALE SUPREMACY"?

If your objective is solely to make the point of "please stop taking up several people's worth of space on the bus", limiting your focus to solely "men spreading legs" isn't exactly conductive to not being seen as attacking men.

Particularly given that "men spreading legs" is not the only way anybody of any gender takes up too much space on the bus, and is arguably one of the more understandable ones (in moderation).

[New Regovia]

Women have a wider pelvis and thighbones that more naturally angle in toward the body's midline, rather than away from it. Sitting with the knees close together is a stress-free position most of the time, although that changes during pregnancy, when the weight of the belly pushes the knees out.

So as stated above, there are the moral reasons against the extremism in the modern feminist movement, then there are the logical ones, like this basic, scientific rebuttal against the infamous "manspreading."

[Dogmeat]

OK, but what does any of that have to do with feminism? Unless you're suggesting that women being subservient to men is also a "fundamental fact of human nature".

Gender abolitionism in some form increasingly appears to be one of the goals of feminists. Down to the point of pretending that it isn't natural for men to like masculine things and women to like feminine things. There are exceptions, of course. Absolutely. And those exceptions should have a protected right to not conform. But don't push uncertainty on those who do not wish it.

You're being oversensitive.

[Jello Biafra]

Why do people get so riled up about not being able to "manspread" on a crowded train or similar? It reduces seating capacity and is annoying. Its not that uncomfortable to keep your legs straight up to provide room for the people sitting next to you

Edit: also, re the first video. Ho do we know that they didn't just take the most extreme feminist videos and use them to paint the entire movement?

using the "man" prefix in this fashion is fairly brazen sexism for one thing.

Is 'womanspreading' a thing?

[Jello Biafra]

If your objective is solely to make the point of "please stop taking up several people's worth of space on the bus", limiting your focus to solely "men spreading legs" isn't exactly conductive to not being seen as attacking men.

The objective of opposing manspreading is not solely to oppose people taking up too much space, though that is probably the most common negative effect of manspreading.

[Galloism]

using the "man" prefix in this fashion is fairly brazen sexism for one thing.

Is 'womanspreading' a thing?

Women engage in the same inconsiderate behavior on public transit - it’s just usually a bag taking up a seat instead of spreading their legs.

[Jello Biafra]

Is 'womanspreading' a thing?

Women engage in the same inconsiderate behavior on public transit - it’s just usually a bag taking up a seat instead of spreading their legs.

Sure, but if we're talking about a specific action - in this case, spreading one's legs - that is done by only men, then is it sexist to refer to that action with the prefix 'man'? I mean, if it's actually done only by men and not a specific action that both men and women take?

[Galloism]

Women engage in the same inconsiderate behavior on public transit - it’s just usually a bag taking up a seat instead of spreading their legs.

Sure, but if we're talking about a specific action - in this case, spreading one's legs - that is done by only men, then is it sexist to refer to that action with the prefix 'man'? I mean, if it's actually done only by men and not a specific action that both men and women take?

Yes, because it’s not about the actual problem, rather a gendered aspect of the problem.

Would you find a huge campaign regarding “femspreading” talking about the bag issue - which is almost never done by men, btw - to be sexist?

EDIT: To explain, it is essentially, at a much lower scale of social undesirability, the huge campaign on crack cocaine.

REGULAR cocaine didn't have the same campaign against it. Why?

Because regular cocaine was used by wall street executive types. White collar. "Good folk". You know - white people. Crack cocaine was used by bad people. Rude people. Thugs. You know - black people. Ergo bad. Crack down, etc.

The deal with being inconsiderate on public transport is the same. Being inconsiderate with a bag is usually done by good people. Decent people. You know, women. Being inconsiderate with their body is done by bad people. Rude people. Thugs. You know - men. Thus it is bad, needs crack down, etc.

[Wizlandia]

Can I ask what y'all think of the Men's Lib movement? I'm in it, and it generally, at leas on the reddit platform, seems to be pretty pro-feminist

Well one of the stickied thread treats “the number of confirmed false rape allegations” as “the number of actual false rape allegations” in order to “prove” that very few allegations are false. Which is either incredibly dumb or incredibly dishonest, as it implicitly assumes that all rape allegations that are not proven or disproven (i.e. the vast majority of them) are true.

So not off to a good start.

[Spokesland]

Can I ask what y'all think of the Men's Lib movement? I'm in it, and it generally, at leas on the reddit platform, seems to be pretty pro-feminist

Well one of the stickied thread treats “the number of confirmed false rape allegations” as “the number of actual false rape allegations” in order to “prove” that very few allegations are false. Which is either incredibly dumb or incredibly dishonest, as it implicitly assumes that all rape allegations that are not proven or disproven (i.e. the vast majority of them) are true.

So not off to a good start.

To me, this is just another case of people being indoctrinated by the media to believe that any rape allegation is true and any man accused of rape is a horrible creature, even though we live in a country where you are innocent until proven guilty.

[Stellar Colonies]

I've never understood people going with assuming the percentage of false rape claims as being the true amount in any context outside of being malicious or unaware of the implications, because the only two metrics which should really matter are 'proven true' or 'proven false'. My first inclination would probably be to project the difference between them onto the rest (so for instance, 3% proven false and 8% proven true translates to 37.5% of all rape claims reported to police as being false and 62.5% reported to police being true, but even that's really vague and full of error bars because of factors like 'reported to police' versus not reported to police and such).

'Unproven' is irrelevant outside of it being unproven.

[Ostroeuropa]

using the "man" prefix in this fashion is fairly brazen sexism for one thing.

Is 'womanspreading' a thing?

No. And nor is manspreading.

"Negro-gibberish".

"Well do white people say things in quite the same uneducated way?"

(Disclaimer. I am drunk and this is a genuine attempt to communicate via memes. i ask you read it in good faith to understand the concept being communicated rather than read it in bad faith.).

chad-gallo: "Well you know, they do also say things that aren't linguistically accurate."

soy-Jello- "NOooOOooOO but is it the exact same? If not, that legitimizes my dehumanizing racist bullshit!".

Or you know. Any number of examples like this.

And as chad-Estalia pointed out here;

I mean how do we get from "please stop taking up several people's worth of space on the bus" to "OMG MEN ARE BEING ELIMINATED FEMALE SUPREMACY"?

If your objective is solely to make the point of "please stop taking up several people's worth of space on the bus", limiting your focus to solely "men spreading legs" isn't exactly conductive to not being seen as attacking men.

Particularly given that "men spreading legs" is not the only way anybody of any gender takes up too much space on the bus, and is arguably one of the more understandable ones (in moderation).

the sheer sexist energy of the viewpoint is something akin to;

"Well it's not proof we're a being hateful, because we're focused on crack. crack bad, crack bad, crack bad. C-R-A-C-K. CRACK. Why are we balkanizing the discussion of drugs like this? Well not all drugs are- oh you're asking specifically about why we've balkanized cocaine? Something directly comparable? um. It's certainly not because we should be physically forced out of polite society to share a space at the periphery of society with neo-nazis. It's a perfectly legitimate political philosophy."

But noticing any of this leads to... well.

Crack cocaine and powder cocaine were both targetted by the Nixon administration. Just one more so than the other. This is still considered a major crime against one of the groups involved. To the point is considered a slam dunk example of racism and brazenly racism.

[Fahran]

Can I ask what y'all think of the Men's Lib movement? I'm in it, and it generally, at leas on the reddit platform, seems to be pretty pro-feminist

I tend to have a positive view of men's rights activism in the abstract, especially when I can't detect a lot of vitriol or misogyny.

[Ostroeuropa]

Can I ask what y'all think of the Men's Lib movement? I'm in it, and it generally, at leas on the reddit platform, seems to be pretty pro-feminist

I tend to have a positive view of men's rights activism in the abstract, especially when I can't detect a lot of vitriol or misogyny.

One big reason for vitriol is that multiple generations of MRAs tried playing nice and received constant vitriol, misrepresentation, and abuse from feminists.

When we entered the Elam era where he started being vitriolic in turn, we started making progress. A comparison here would be for you to be like "Oh I support civil rights, when I don't see race riots.".

You might legitimately feel that way, but it's still ignoring the context to pretend that the vitriol means anything about MRAs rather than acknowledging it as a condemnation of feminism.

"Well there's something wrong with civil rights activists that they're rioting" VS "I think maybe we might be terrible people, because it's reached the stage where civil rights activists are rioting.".

It's not out of the blue. It's there for a reason.

And there's probably more to be said for the idea that feminists who aren't total shitbags should adopt a vitriolic and hostile attitude to feminists opposed to the MRM and engage in an escalatory race with MRAs over it until misandrists are genuinely too terrified to voice their opinions. At that point it would be emotio-functionally impossible for the vitriol to be directed by MRAs against "comrades" whether they were feminists or not.

"Woh woh, can't we all just get along uwu?" - Person telling a slave revolt they're fine with ending slavery but don't like the violent methods.

VS

"Yehhh, i'm cool with killing slavers and making them fear the wrath of god. Oh, cool, you have a spare gun? Neat! By the way, not all white people, okay?". - Person who isn't a "White moderate".

[Jello Biafra]

The deal with being inconsiderate on public transport is the same. Being inconsiderate with a bag is usually done by good people. Decent people. You know, women. Being inconsiderate with their body is done by bad people. Rude people. Thugs. You know - men. Thus it is bad, needs crack down, etc.

You don't see a distinction between a person being inconsiderate with a bag and being inconsiderate with their body?

[Vassenor]

The deal with being inconsiderate on public transport is the same. Being inconsiderate with a bag is usually done by good people. Decent people. You know, women. Being inconsiderate with their body is done by bad people. Rude people. Thugs. You know - men. Thus it is bad, needs crack down, etc.

You don't see a distinction between a person being inconsiderate with a bag and being inconsiderate with their body?

You need to look at it from the angle of everything being designed to oppress men for being men.

[Galloism]

The deal with being inconsiderate on public transport is the same. Being inconsiderate with a bag is usually done by good people. Decent people. You know, women. Being inconsiderate with their body is done by bad people. Rude people. Thugs. You know - men. Thus it is bad, needs crack down, etc.

You don't see a distinction between a person being inconsiderate with a bag and being inconsiderate with their body?

I mean, the bag thing is worse for sure. A person being comfortable while being inconsiderate certainly has more utility than a bag being comfortable, given it has no ability to feel comfortable at all.

To use a really bad example, a person farting in public is certainly inconsiderate, but it likely also relieves pressure in their gut that was making them uncomfortable. Thus, while inconsiderate, it’s understandable.

A person randomly spraying fart spray in public is being more inconsiderate, as there’s no utility in doing this at all. They’re just being an asshole.

[The Blaatschapen]

You don't see a distinction between a person being inconsiderate with a bag and being inconsiderate with their body?

I mean, the bag is worse for sure. A person being comfortable while being inconsiderate certainly has more utility than a bag being comfortable, given it has no ability to feel comfortable at all.

Quite a few bags felt more comfortable when they were still alive

[Galloism]

You don't see a distinction between a person being inconsiderate with a bag and being inconsiderate with their body?

You need to look at it from the angle of everything being designed to oppress men for being men.

“Designed” is a strong word, but systems of oppression definitely target men in significant and extreme fashion.

If you look at our society and can’t seem to recognize the systems of oppression against black people and men, you may come from a position of extreme privilege, and need to become more educated on systems of oppression and how they work. You might also try listening to the lived experiences of the oppressed classes.

[Jello Biafra]

You don't see a distinction between a person being inconsiderate with a bag and being inconsiderate with their body?

I mean, the bag thing is worse for sure. A person being comfortable while being inconsiderate certainly has more utility than a bag being comfortable, given it has no ability to feel comfortable at all.

To use a really bad example, a person farting in public is certainly inconsiderate, but it likely also relieves pressure in their gut that was making them uncomfortable. Thus, while inconsiderate, it’s understandable.

A person randomly spraying fart spray in public is being more inconsiderate, as there’s no utility in doing this at all. They’re just being an asshole.

I guess that's one way of looking at it.
However, I was thinking more along the lines of a person being inconsiderate with their body can lead to them making physical contact with one or more of the people surrounding them, which is presumably unwanted by those people. In order for someone to do so with their bag, they'd need to put it in the lap of the person next to them and rummage through it occasionally.

[Galloism]

I mean, the bag thing is worse for sure. A person being comfortable while being inconsiderate certainly has more utility than a bag being comfortable, given it has no ability to feel comfortable at all.

To use a really bad example, a person farting in public is certainly inconsiderate, but it likely also relieves pressure in their gut that was making them uncomfortable. Thus, while inconsiderate, it’s understandable.

A person randomly spraying fart spray in public is being more inconsiderate, as there’s no utility in doing this at all. They’re just being an asshole.

I guess that's one way of looking at it.
However, I was thinking more along the lines of a person being inconsiderate with their body can lead to them making physical contact with one or more of the people surrounding them, which is presumably unwanted by those people. In order for someone to do so with their bag, they'd need to put it in the lap of the person next to them and rummage through it occasionally.

Whether it's the person making contact with you with their clothing that they're wearing or making contact with you with a bag that they are wearing doesn't strike me as substantively different. But to each their own.

[Kowani]

Bell Hooks dead at 69

[Galloism]

Bell Hooks dead at 69

This is unfortunate.

[Ostroeuropa]

"They'll get an abortion when it's THEIR wife who needs one!".

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front ... daughters/

Same energy.

(Conservatives and men are vastly more worried about boys prospects than girls prospects. Liberals and women worry about both, but girls more. When you change the question to "Are you worried about your son/daughter?"

S
U
D
D
E
N
L
Y

Liberals and women are like "Oh fuck yes. Way more than my daughter.".)

Strikingly, liberals are more worried about their sons than their daughters, even though as we showed above, they are more worried about girls in general.

Very normal psychological behavior. Not indicative of something wrong at all.