The NationStates Feminism Thread IV: Fight Like A Girl!

[Galloism]

Nope. You just made that up.

As Bettina Shell-Duncan stated, "If we look at data across Africa, the support for the practice is stronger among women than among men." She conducted personal research in Kenya, Gambia, and Senegal, and consulted other studies across Africa (which is where most FGM takes place) and came to the conclusion that it's women who promote and push this practice moreso than men.

https://anthropology.washington.edu/new ... ell-duncan

Educate yourself.

As you said:



When you make a claim like you did - again, without a single shred of evidence supporting it - make up lies trying to support it, and then dismiss the evidence presented to by multiple learned scholars on the subject, you are acting desperate to prove an unsupportable point to the point you've blinded yourself to what the evidence actually says.

I really think you should read things before you post them. I'm not saying some of these academics have never been to other African states.

How about you go back and read what you posted and get all caught up, and then we'll move forward with the arguments about Sudan that your own source said was about Sudan, and then we can - if you wish - move onto the fact that genital mutilation also exists in other parts of Africa?

Nah, I'll point out that your claim that female genital mutilation was primarily pushed by men stands unsupported, and contradicted by multiple experts who have studied across Africa, where the practice is most prevalent. Your lies about my sources and what the conversation was about don't change the facts. You claimed this:

Not at all.

Children having their genitals mutilated by adults who have care over them with state permission is a severe violation of bodily autonomy and right to choose (as an adult when they get there). FGM is a major form of bodily autonomy violation by adults "caring" over girls, as is MGM of adults "caring" over boys.

No. It's just not. That's not what autonomy means. Like, by definition.

If we really want to nitpick, the fact that men tend to have their opinion valued more in the discussion of genital mutilation for girl OR boy babies means that this is yet another issue where men are enfranchised more than women, even when the issues either affect both, or disproportionately affect one.

This is literally the opposite of autonomy - this is two third parties fighting over who has the right to decide what happens to your body.

Multiple experts say no, when it comes to FGM, women's opinions are valued more in the discussion than men's in the place where it's most prevalent, in Africa.

That's what we were talking about. You diminishing women by inferring they have no power, even when the evidence suggests that in this particular arena, they are the ones exercising power and men are not. This is a common actor/object thing - where people diminish women's authority and culpability in things, even when the evidence stands screaming in their face.

The evidence across Africa is clear - women's opinions are valued more than men's when it comes to female genital mutilation. You lied, and everyone in this thread knows it. Your attempt to dodge, weave, and make the conversation about something else notwithstanding, you lied.

And that is what we were discussing. Your lie.

[SD_Film Artists]

As I have said at the beginning, I do not support forcing that way of life on either women or men. I just would encourage women to stay at home, have children, do the chores, and men to work and bring the money home. However, if anyone wants to do it in a different way, such as both working and doing the chores, stay at home dad and working mom, etc, that is fine to me. I believe in certain things, but I do not wish to force that think on anyone. Besides, this is a game. And I am conservative, but not to that extreme.

How exactly are women "made" for that and only that? The ability to breastfeed doesn't mean that women can't be good lawyers.

[Galloism]

As I have said at the beginning, I do not support forcing that way of life on either women or men. I just would encourage women to stay at home, have children, do the chores, and men to work and bring the money home. However, if anyone wants to do it in a different way, such as both working and doing the chores, stay at home dad and working mom, etc, that is fine to me. I believe in certain things, but I do not wish to force that think on anyone. Besides, this is a game. And I am conservative, but not to that extreme.

How exactly are women "made" for that and only that? The ability to breastfeed doesn't mean that women can't be good lawyers.

It's well known that prolactin makes you unable to say the words "I object" effectively.

[Borderlands of Rojava]

What does everyone here think of this piece of Graffiti Art that was once in my hometown?

I thought the original artwork was quite tastefully done and it looked like they had a real woman to pose for the artwork, but other people clearly disagreed and graffitied over it.

It's not lewd, because it wasn't painted to arouse people. It was painted to send a message.

[Sundiata]

I do believe in patriarchy. But not in forced patriarchy. Women and men should have the same rights and be able to have the same opportunities, paychecks, and everything. But it should be taught that male and female are fundamentally different. Not inferior or superior, just, different, and each of them is more adequate to certain tasks. Women at work suffer more than men, with or without discrimination, because it is not the task foe which they were made. They were not made to work with schedules, they were not make for having to run to work and then spend eight hours in front of a computer or writing a 100 page paper, neither to bring the boss a coffee, neither for being reminded that they have to do something for certain day. They must be able to do it if they want and treated equally, but it is not their natural space.

Well, while we have unique male and female souls, it's true that men and women have the same natural rights. As husbands and fathers we have to support the women in our lives to do good as they likewise have to support us. It is our way as people.

[Fahran]

It's well known that prolactin makes you unable to say the words "I object" effectively.

"I... I... I ob- I am object."

[Galloism]

It's well known that prolactin makes you unable to say the words "I object" effectively.

"I... I... I ob- I am object."

And that's going in AQ.

[Kowani]

conservative rhetoric, people
when you can't argue a point, allude to "modern sensibilities bad"
and somehow, this works on millions of people

"everyone's so offended" "everything is racist" "everything is sexist" now
it's the same old delegitimization strategy
it's just dumb

Amusingly enough, my argument on this is probably the more conservative one in many respects. I've just put a little more effort into it. I could probably argue the other side just as well, and have argued the other side in the past with regard to art and aesthetics.

well, yes
your points tend to be better argued than...the majority of american conservatism is able to

What does everyone here think of this piece of Graffiti Art that was once in my hometown?

I thought the original artwork was quite tastefully done and it looked like they had a real woman to pose for the artwork, but other people clearly disagreed and graffitied over it.

It's not lewd, because it wasn't painted to arouse people. It was painted to send a message.

i don't think that's mutually exclusive (much less questions of relevance of intent)

[The Blaatschapen]

As I have said at the beginning, I do not support forcing that way of life on either women or men. I just would encourage women to stay at home, have children, do the chores, and men to work and bring the money home. However, if anyone wants to do it in a different way, such as both working and doing the chores, stay at home dad and working mom, etc, that is fine to me. I believe in certain things, but I do not wish to force that think on anyone. Besides, this is a game. And I am conservative, but not to that extreme.

How exactly are women "made" for that and only that? The ability to breastfeed doesn't mean that women can't be good lawyers.

Normally it's the lawyer that is milking it for all its worth, and not the client.

[The Blaatschapen]

For a sport it's pretty much par for the course.

Boo!

Baa!

[MaximumOverdrive]

As I have said at the beginning, I do not support forcing that way of life on either women or men. I just would encourage women to stay at home, have children, do the chores, and men to work and bring the money home. However, if anyone wants to do it in a different way, such as both working and doing the chores, stay at home dad and working mom, etc, that is fine to me. I believe in certain things, but I do not wish to force that think on anyone. Besides, this is a game. And I am conservative, but not to that extreme.

How exactly are women "made" for that and only that? The ability to breastfeed doesn't mean that women can't be good lawyers.

Then who's gonna raise the kids? Surely you don't want the father too.

[Galloism]

How exactly are women "made" for that and only that? The ability to breastfeed doesn't mean that women can't be good lawyers.

Then who's gonna raise the kids? Surely you don't want the father too.

Um, why not?

[Herador]

Then who's gonna raise the kids? Surely you don't want the father too.

Ok, I'll bite: why?

[MaximumOverdrive]

Then who's gonna raise the kids? Surely you don't want the father too.

Ok, I'll bite: why?

Men are rougher than women. We're harder edged and we're awkward with something as sensitive as raising kids. We are supposed to keep the roof overhead.we are the workers, the builders, the movers and shakers.

[Galloism]

Ok, I'll bite: why?

Men are rougher than women. We're harder edged and we're awkward with something as sensitive as raising kids. We are supposed to keep the roof overhead.we are the workers, the builders, the movers and shakers.

I think I’m offended.

[Herador]

Ok, I'll bite: why?

Men are rougher than women. We're harder edged and we're awkward with something as sensitive as raising kids. We are supposed to keep the roof overhead.we are the workers, the builders, the movers and shakers.

I went through a couple of emotions reading this. I was angry and kinda wanted to be a dick about it after our other interaction, but reading this and going over your post history out of curiosity, now I just feel bad. I'm being genuine here, and I'm assuming you are, but I don't think whatever led you to hold these opinions was pleasant. I'm blocking you from here, I just don't think a dialogue between us is possible, but you have my sympathy.

I was bamboozled.

[Sundiata]

Ok, I'll bite: why?

Men are rougher than women. We're harder edged and we're awkward with something as sensitive as raising kids. We are supposed to keep the roof overhead.we are the workers, the builders, the movers and shakers.

There are literally female physicians.

[North Washington Republic]

Can someone explain to me how women getting lighter sentences for statutory rape is part of the “patriarchy“ and not female privilege?

[New haven america]

Can someone explain to me how women getting lighter sentences for statutory rape is part of the “patriarchy“ and not female privilege?

IIRC, it's a mix between the idea that men think women are less capable of committing heinous acts (The Women are Wonderful Effect, which tbh, a lot of feminists end up believing as well) and the idea that men are the more sexually aggressive and desiring of sex between the 2 sexes/genders (As women aren't seen as sexual initiators or desperate enough to sleep with minors).

(This isn't what I believe before any of you get any ideas) For example, if a man sleeps with a child then he's a predator, while if a woman sleeps with a male child then... he's a lucky predator because what reason would a woman have to go after a boy?

Hell, read a story a little while ago about an 18 year old who was raped by his aunt (She'd been grooming him since he was 15 or something), and the first response of his parents (Both mom and dad) and uncle figuring this out was that he needs to be taught a lesson and get his ass kicked for sleeping with another man's wife (And incest, but they honestly weren't as pissed about that as they were with the cheating...). Even though, again, by legal definition he was raped (Coercion, specifically).

When tbh, this seriously plays into the Actor-Object Dilemma. Women aren't capable nor do they want to commit heinous acts unless under the influence of a man, do people expect me to buy this...?

[Borderlands of Rojava]

Can someone explain to me how women getting lighter sentences for statutory rape is part of the “patriarchy“ and not female privilege?

Sexism is different than racism like that. Whereas racism gives everything to one group and shafts another, sexism forces both genders to play roles they may not wanna play and gets mad at them when they refuse.

[Grave_n_idle]

Nah, I'll point out that your claim that female genital mutilation was primarily pushed by men...

Stellar Colonies raised the issue of the perceived hypocrisy about genital mutilation based on gender of the victim, and people assuming that FGM is defined by it's worst excesses, and male circumcision is cutesy-fied.

...multiple experts who have studied across Africa, where the practice is most prevalent.

Stellar mentioned multiple times that they were talking about perceptions in the US. You actually hijacked the point there - by suggesting it was an example of female bodily autonomy trumping male autonomy, perhaps not understanding what it was you were responding to.

I followed your tangent, and have had to draw out of you that you weren't talking about perceptions (as the post you responded to was discussing) or the US (as the post you were responding to was discussing) or even opening it up to a universal discussion - no, you were literally fine-tuning it to a discussion about how you believe it shows women have more autonomy in certain parts of one continent. Your evidence at this opint, was someone talking about an extreme authoritarian Islamic state that has SO little value for female autonomy that girl children are sold into marriage.

You've now opened the scope of this a little, so we're talking about all of Africa (it isn't all of Africa, of course, it's some parts of Africa, they're just spread out - but you're going to treat them all the same to prove a point) but your argument is still flawed because you're still arguing that women perpetuating treatment of women as part of a system that oppresses women... is ITSELF an example of female autonomy.

I have to assume you're just too passionate or too close to this subject - taking a step back would show you what a ridiculous chain of comments this is.

Your lies about my sources and what the conversation was about don't change the facts. You claimed this:

I claimed that third parties fighting over who gets to make the choices for an individual is - by definition - not autonomy. That is still true.

You diminishing women by inferring they have no power

This is why I keep suggesting you step back.

You're arguing that I am diminishing women by inferring they have no power. Aside from the semantic argument (I wouldn't be inferring it, I'd be implying it - YOU would be inferring it from my implication) - I'm neither inferring NOR implying it. You had to resort to the Sudan to support your argument - a place so theocratically authoritarian they only just banned crucifixion, and so oppressive to women that forced marriage, marital rape, and child marriage of girl children are all allowed.

Frankly it is hilarious that you're using someone's research in the Sudan to try to suggest that I am 'diminishing' women or stating they have 'no power'.

[Kowani]

Pornhub sued by 34 women for profiting from videos takes without their consent

Isabella says she was in high school and only 17 when her boyfriend coerced her into making a nude video.


She says she forgot about it until she was in college and received a text from a close friend: "I didn't know you did porn." She learned a link to that video had been anonymously posted on Pornhub without her knowledge or consent.

"Immediately, I knew it was me. I mean, my face, my outfit — immediately," she said. "My heart dropped into my stomach." Isabella, who is using a pseudonym to protect her identity, says Pornhub did not try to contact her to confirm her age or to ask whether the video had been consensual.

CBS News spoke with four of the 34 women, including Isabella, who have joined a lawsuit against MindGeek, the company behind Pornhub and dozens of the world's most popular pornography websites.

The civil suit, filed Thursday, accuses the company of running a "criminal enterprise." Pornhub markets itself as a mainstream site for adult content and says it yields 130 million users each day — more than Netflix or Amazon. But the women suing the company have accused it of exploiting them for profit, hosting and promoting graphic videos of rape, revenge porn and even videos that depict child sexual abuse. Isabella said more than 200,000 people ultimately watched the video — "including everybody at my college, pretty much," she said.

"The view count on the video will forever haunt my dreams," she said. "Just knowing that that many people saw it really messed me up."

After learning how many people had seen her video on Pornhub, she said she battled with a sense of shame and worthlessness and had to transfer schools. She couldn't look in a mirror for six months and drew into isolation, she said, fearful that people at her new school would recognize her.

And she struggled with the feeling that she'd brought this on herself. "It's taken me a long time to come to terms with the fact that I am a victim of something," she said. The lawsuit alleges that Pornhub's business model is built around funneling online traffic to videos like Isabella's.

MindGeek owns and operates more than 100 pornographic websites, and its brands include Pornhub, RedTube, YouPorn and Xtube. MindGeek also owns porn production companies that create content, but for years, a majority of the content on Pornhub was uploaded by unverified users. MindGeek operates some paid-subscription sites, but Pornhub is free for anyone to access and earns money through advertising revenue and optional, premium subscriptions.

Isabella said she decided to join the lawsuit to protect other victims. A draft of the lawsuit says MindGeek "embraced under-age, non-consensual, and pirated content in its business" and claims the company "profited from content produced through human trafficking."

Michael Bowe, the lawyer representing the women, said the company has skirted rules that have long been in place to protect actors in the "traditional" porn industry, which requires producers to verify the age and identities of the people featured in videos.

"The online porn industry has essentially been the Red Light District of commerce," Bowe said. "This new industry of online porn, for the last 10 years, has been allowed by law enforcement, government entities, to operate by a different set of rules. Basically, no rules or oversight."

Bowe has spent the past year building a civil case against the company based on racketeering laws normally used to go after mobsters and drug gangs.

Last December, after a wave of backlash over nonconsensual content on the platform, Mastercard and Visa blocked card users from making purchases on Pornhub. Under scrutiny, MindGeek announced an overhaul of its procedures and took down millions of videos uploaded by unverified users, deleting 80% of the content on its site.

MindGeek executives also announced last year that they had removed the ability for users to download videos and added a requirement that people posting videos verify their identification.

"We are committed to eradicating illegal content," the company said in a statement to CBS News, adding that earlier this year, the company enacted "the most comprehensive safeguards in user-generated platform history."

The statement said, "We have banned uploads from unverified users, eliminated downloads, expanded our moderation processes, and partnered with dozens of non-profit organizations around the world, steps that surpass those of any other major platform on the internet."

In a statement Thursday after the lawsuit was filed, MindGeek said the allegations in the complaint that Pornhub is a "criminal enterprise" are "utterly absurd, completely reckless and categorically false."

During a February hearing before the Canadian House of Commons, MindGeek's CEO Feras Antoon decried online child abuse imagery. "Sexual material, child abuse material has no place on our platform. It makes us lose money," he said. "It completely ruins the brand that we have been trying to build for over a decade."

But the company still does not require its users to verify the identity or age of those featured in its videos, something that's standard in the traditional porn industry. The company also doesn't seek to confirm the consent of everyone who appears in videos posted to the site, a measure that victims of abuse believe would help keep nonconsensual content off porn sites.

Some of the victims in the lawsuit told CBS News they joined after they discovered their non-consensual videos on Pornhub and reached out to an activist named Laila Mickelwait. In 2020, Mickelwait founded a campaign called Traffickinghub which started a petition to "Shut Down Pornhub." She told CBS News it now has more than 2 million signatures.

During testimony before the House Financial Services Committee in March, Mickelwait called Pornhub a "mega-sex trafficker," and said the site was infested with non-consensual pornographic content. "The company knowingly has enabled and profited from mass amounts of sex acts induced by force, fraud or coercion, and the commercial sexual abuse of children," she said. Traffickinghub says it's "powered by" a religious organization called Exodus Cry, which has been criticized for its efforts to criminalize parts the sex industry and abolish pornography altogether. On its website, Exodus Cry advocates for laws to "end the sex industry" and "reduce the demand for commercial sex."

Pornhub's executives have said the company was designed to celebrate freedom of expression and empower adults. And in its statement Thursday, the company claims Bowe is a "soldier of the ultra-right wing effort to shut down the adult content industry."

But Bowe said his goal isn't to ban online pornography, but rather, to force it to comply with regulations.

He told CBS News: "This case is not about porn, it's about rape. This is a legitimate industry that consenting people have every right to participate in. It just needs to be done legally and not with illegal content."

Of the 34 women suing the company, 14 said they were underage in videos uploaded to PornHub, and 14 were victims of people charged or convicted of sex crimes. One of those victims is Aubrey, who is also using a pseudonym to protect her identity. She says her ex-husband secretly recorded a video of them having sex, then uploaded it to Pornhub without her consent or her knowledge. The ex-husband now faces criminal charges of forcible rape, domestic assault and non-consensual dissemination of private sexual images by posting the video on Pornhub.

Aubrey learned about the video from a friend in 2018, after she said it had garnered more than 400,000 views.

"I will never, ever be able to recover the emotional pain that this has caused me," Aubrey said. "It truly, truly was a living nightmare. I — I didn't — everybody had seen everything about me. And that's just — that's a very private moment. And it's a very vulnerable moment. And it's just — it's hard to come to terms with. That the world has seen that."

Aubrey said she struggled to convince Pornhub to remove her video. Emails reviewed by CBS News show that after she contacted the company to tell them the video was not taken consensually, a Pornhub representative challenged her.

He asked, "Are you the female in the video? How do you know this is you?"

Aubrey responded, "I know this is me by several things. That is my bed, I have a mole on my right hip, that is my face, my voice, THAT IS ME and I am pissed."

After a three-day exchange, Pornhub took down the video, but even then, Aubrey said she found it posted to other porn websites — renamed and re-uploaded, by users she didn't know.

She said she felt defeated to know that the video was still online. "I felt like everything was taken away from me. And I had no power. I had no say in it. I was completely powerless," she said.

One former executive, who worked at MindGeek before the company overhauled its policies, provided information included in the lawsuit against MindGeek. He said that illegal content was seen as "good" for business. He agreed to be interviewed on the condition of anonymity. He fears retribution. He said the company favored keeping more content on the site. "I mean, if you offer everything on the site, there is something for everyone," he said. "The more you have, the better it is. So for all the free sites like Pornhub, more content is always better."

He said when content was flagged on PornHub, MindGeek often moved it to one of the dozens of other porn sites it owned. "Removed content popped up on all their other sites and no one really cared," he said.

In its statement to CBS News, MindGeek said: "The spread of illegal content is an existential threat to the internet, and every platform has the moral obligation to join the fight against it. Illegal material on the internet harms its victims, internet users and all platforms that operate online. Any suggestion that the company tolerates or celebrates this material is patently false." One victim, Michelle, who is using a pseudonym, said that she was targeted at age 15 by an abuser who has since been convicted of blackmailing children to sexually abuse themselves on camera.

She said he coerced her to take sexual photos and videos, which he later sold as "box sets" to other offenders. Some of those videos were uploaded to Pornhub, and from there, she said, they spread.

She said that the videos' uploads on Pornhub had "way, way worse" of an impact on her than even her blackmailer's initial abuse. "It was only when my videos went on sites like Pornhub that my life started to become something that I couldn't live out properly," she said, adding that she stopped eating, leaving the house and once attempted suicide.

Michelle reported the videos to Pornhub during the fall of 2018 and continued flagging content for the site to take down throughout 2019. And although Pornhub took down all unverified content last year, Michele said she continues to find images of her abuse re-uploaded on other websites. She said, "Any other place I find my videos there's some type of mention of Pornhub or where they originated from, and my name was always with them."

Strangers continue to contact her about her videos, she said, and one man even showed up at her house, telling her that he'd found her through Pornhub.

The National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, which investigates reports of child sexual abuse, told CBS News that MindGeek began reporting suspected child abuse to their Cyber Tipline in April 2020, and throughout 2020, reported more than 13,000 instances of child sexual abuse imagery. In its statement, MindGeek said those reports represent approximately 4,000 unique incidents.

"According to leading advocates, non-profits and third-party analyses, Pornhub's safeguards and technologies have proven effective," the statement said, adding that according to the center's data, one major social media platform was responsible for more than 20 million reports.

Despite that, the center said that victims and survivors who contact them "express frustration" with MindGeek's record in removing sexually abusive content, noting their expectations for MindGeek to take greater steps to proactively identify and remove the content from its site.

The center added that it receives information from the public about suspected child sexual abuse imagery on MindGeek sites "on a daily basis."Another victim, Ashley, who is also using a pseudonym to protect her identity, said in August of last year, she learned that Pornhub was hosting a video of her being assaulted while unconscious.

She said her then-husband drugged and raped her, and had posted the assault on Pornhub. The video was tagged "sleeping pills," and she says it had been on the site for three years and racked up tens of thousands of views before she learned of its existence. Her abuser was arrested last week on charges of sexual assault, distributing intimate images without consent and indecent exposure. She said his arrest came as a relief, but she hopes MindGeek will be held responsible too.

Ashley said the changes the company made to their site last year, which require users to upload a government-issued ID in order to post content, may not have prevented a situation like hers.

"Of course you have consent from the person uploading the video. They're the one uploading it," she said. "But it's the people in the video that really need to be asked."

Even after Pornhub deactivated the original video of her rape, she said the thumbnail image of the video, which shows her unconscious and naked, continues to populate in Google image search results to this day.

She said, "There shouldn't be anywhere safer in the world than at home in your own bed, right? And you shouldn't be able to go to bed one night and wake up on Pornhub."

The new lawsuit asks a federal court in California to order MindGeek to pay damages to the victims, an amount Bowe told CBS News that could be in the hundreds of millions of dollars. Victims who spoke with CBS News also hope the company will someday be held criminally responsible.

"How would they like it if it was someone they loved? Their child? Their sister?" Aubrey said. "They've got to take steps to prevent this from ever happening to anybody ever again." In its statement, MindGeek said: "Anyone who attempts to post nonconsensual imagery or child sexual abuse material on the internet is a criminal, and we are committed to remaining at the forefront of the internet when it comes to the elimination of illegal content. Every online platform has the responsibility to join this fight, and it requires collective action and constant vigilance. We hope other platforms will use our model to help eradicate unwanted content."

[Northern Socialist Council Republics]

Pornhub sued by 34 women for profiting from videos takes without their consent

I do agree that distributors of adult content should be regulated far more strictly to ensure that people do not continue to be victimised, but I don’t think that really strikes at the root of the problem.

The problem is demand. As long as there exists millions of people who want pornography for free and are not too fussed about where it comes from, then legal or illegal there will be people willing to earn advertising revenue on that market. There is only so much you can do by hammering down on the supply side, and that goes double in the information anarchy that is the Internet.

It’s the same problem that you have in the - to use an example off the top of my head - journalism industry. If people aren’t willing to put down real money for neutral journalism then neutral journalism you will not get. Similarly, if people aren’t willing to put down real money for safe and legal pornography, then these things will continue to happen as the industry caters to a clientele that simply doesn’t care.

Ultimately, I see this as a social problem of ethical consumption.

[Eighth Eurasia]

Here's a better photo of that Graffiti art.

[SD_Film Artists]

Can someone explain to me how women getting lighter sentences for statutory rape is part of the “patriarchy“ and not female privilege?

Sexism is different than racism like that. Whereas racism gives everything to one group and shafts another, sexism forces both genders to play roles they may not wanna play and gets mad at them when they refuse.

That sums it up well.