The NationStates Feminism Thread IV: Fight Like A Girl!

[The Islamic Caliphate of the Balkans]

I do believe in patriarchy. But not in forced patriarchy. Women and men should have the same rights and be able to have the same opportunities, paychecks, and everything. But it should be taught that male and female are fundamentally different. Not inferior or superior, just, different, and each of them is more adequate to certain tasks. Women at work suffer more than men, with or without discrimination, because it is not the task foe which they were made. They were not made to work with schedules, they were not make for having to run to work and then spend eight hours in front of a computer or writing a 100 page paper, neither to bring the boss a coffee, neither for being reminded that they have to do something for certain day. They must be able to do it if they want and treated equally, but it is not their natural space.

[Borderlands of Rojava]

I do believe in patriarchy. But not in forced patriarchy. Women and men should have the same rights and be able to have the same opportunities, paychecks, and everything. But it should be taught that male and female are fundamentally different. Not inferior or superior, just, different, and each of them is more adequate to certain tasks. Women at work suffer more than men, with or without discrimination, because it is not the task foe which they were made. They were not made to work with schedules, they were not make for having to run to work and then spend eight hours in front of a computer or writing a 100 page paper, neither to bring the boss a coffee, neither for being reminded that they have to do something for certain day. They must be able to do it if they want and treated equally, but it is not their natural space.

Strange, the women at my job don't seem to be particularly worse for wear than the men are. I have this wonderful idea where we let people do what they want and stop forcing ridiculous roles on people based solely on whether they have a cock or a vagina. Stay at home dads and working women are a-okay, and I'm thankful my sister lives in a generation where she can do anything she wants to do without some patronizing asshole saying "oh but honey women aren't good at math. You should just stay at home and raise kids and have no life at all." I hope it remains that way.

[Esalia]

I do believe in patriarchy. But not in forced patriarchy. Women and men should have the same rights and be able to have the same opportunities, paychecks, and everything. But it should be taught that male and female are fundamentally different. Not inferior or superior, just, different, and each of them is more adequate to certain tasks. Women at work suffer more than men, with or without discrimination, because it is not the task foe which they were made. They were not made to work with schedules, they were not make for having to run to work and then spend eight hours in front of a computer or writing a 100 page paper, neither to bring the boss a coffee, neither for being reminded that they have to do something for certain day. They must be able to do it if they want and treated equally, but it is not their natural space.

No human born today, male or female, is "made" to work with schedules, sit for eight hours in front of a computer, write hundreds of pages, or do plenty of other tasks because a) we're not "made", and b) we evolved into our current state far before we started doing any of these.

[Kowani]

I do believe in patriarchy. But not in forced patriarchy. Women and men should have the same rights and be able to have the same opportunities, paychecks, and everything. But it should be taught that male and female are fundamentally different. Not inferior or superior, just, different, and each of them is more adequate to certain tasks. Women at work suffer more than men, with or without discrimination, because it is not the task foe which they were made. They were not made to work with schedules, they were not make for having to run to work and then spend eight hours in front of a computer or writing a 100 page paper, neither to bring the boss a coffee, neither for being reminded that they have to do something for certain day. They must be able to do it if they want and treated equally, but it is not their natural space.

No human born today, male or female, is "made" to work with schedules, sit for eight hours in front of a computer, write hundreds of pages, or do plenty of other tasks because a) we're not "made", and b) we evolved into our current state far before we started doing any of these.

weak modern men: golfing with your work colleagues on a saturday
strong traditional men: get gored hunting mammoth to build up meat reserves for the winter

[Galloism]

No human born today, male or female, is "made" to work with schedules, sit for eight hours in front of a computer, write hundreds of pages, or do plenty of other tasks because a) we're not "made", and b) we evolved into our current state far before we started doing any of these.

weak modern men: golfing with your work colleagues on a saturday
strong traditional men: get gored hunting mammoth to build up meat reserves for the winter

You know, golf doesn't seem as bad as I first thought.

[Dumb Ideologies]

I do believe in patriarchy. But not in forced patriarchy. Women and men should have the same rights and be able to have the same opportunities, paychecks, and everything. But it should be taught that male and female are fundamentally different. Not inferior or superior, just, different, and each of them is more adequate to certain tasks. Women at work suffer more than men, with or without discrimination, because it is not the task foe which they were made. They were not made to work with schedules, they were not make for having to run to work and then spend eight hours in front of a computer or writing a 100 page paper, neither to bring the boss a coffee, neither for being reminded that they have to do something for certain day. They must be able to do it if they want and treated equally, but it is not their natural space.

It shouldn't be taught in that unnuanced or blunt a form as that's just not true. There is no single template of "male" and "female" abilities or spirit that can be applied to presume with any certainty who is "naturally" going to be good at what. Are there differences in average capabilities such that we shouldn't be aiming for 50/50 representation in every sphere of work through affirmative action? Absolutely. But it is a nonsense to claim that there are not some women who are better suited to office work or even manual work than some men, and equally a nonsense to claim that some men aren't better suited to childcare than some women. Where these people are doing things that they are good at for the benefit of the wider society they are no more acting against their "nature" than anyone else in their workplace.

[Fahran]

weak modern men: golfing with your work colleagues on a saturday
strong traditional men: get gored hunting mammoth to build up meat reserves for the winter

You know, golf doesn't seem as bad as I first thought.

I feel like patriarchy is keeping me from getting gored to death hunting mammoths. And that's an outrage. Because golf is just obscene.

[The Blaatschapen]

weak modern men: golfing with your work colleagues on a saturday
strong traditional men: get gored hunting mammoth to build up meat reserves for the winter

You know, golf doesn't seem as bad as I first thought.

For a sport it's pretty much par for the course.

[Fahran]

I do believe in patriarchy. But not in forced patriarchy. Women and men should have the same rights and be able to have the same opportunities, paychecks, and everything. But it should be taught that male and female are fundamentally different. Not inferior or superior, just, different, and each of them is more adequate to certain tasks. Women at work suffer more than men, with or without discrimination, because it is not the task foe which they were made. They were not made to work with schedules, they were not make for having to run to work and then spend eight hours in front of a computer or writing a 100 page paper, neither to bring the boss a coffee, neither for being reminded that they have to do something for certain day. They must be able to do it if they want and treated equally, but it is not their natural space.

You actually appear to support what bell hooks and many other feminists would define as patriarchy. I've realized recently that in spite of my femininity (or, perhaps, because of it) and my feminism that a lot of my attitudes and beliefs serve to reinforce patriarchal conventions and social arrangements.

Also, please let me continue pursuing my career as a doctor. I'm definitely suffering, but I'm hopeful that it'll pay off in the end. I want to help people and I'm passionate about the profession.

[Fahran]

You know, golf doesn't seem as bad as I first thought.

For a sport it's pretty much par for the course.

Boo!

[Kowani]

You know, golf doesn't seem as bad as I first thought.

For a sport it's pretty much par for the course.

but for kids, it's the bogeyman

[Galloism]

For a sport it's pretty much par for the course.

but for kids, it's the bogeyman

A little birdie told me to avoid it.

[Eighth Eurasia]

What does everyone here think of this piece of Graffiti Art that was once in my hometown?

I thought the original artwork was quite tastefully done and it looked like they had a real woman to pose for the artwork, but other people clearly disagreed and graffitied over it.

[SD_Film Artists]

I do believe in patriarchy. But not in forced patriarchy. Women and men should have the same rights and be able to have the same opportunities, paychecks, and everything. But it should be taught that male and female are fundamentally different. Not inferior or superior, just, different, and each of them is more adequate to certain tasks. Women at work suffer more than men, with or without discrimination, because it is not the task foe which they were made. They were not made to work with schedules, they were not make for having to run to work and then spend eight hours in front of a computer or writing a 100 page paper, neither to bring the boss a coffee, neither for being reminded that they have to do something for certain day. They must be able to do it if they want and treated equally, but it is not their natural space.

Like others have said, people (male or female) weren't made for that and it's rather odd that you say women aren't inferior and then list lots of things that they supposedly can't do/"weren't made for" compared to a man. I hope you're not going to say that women were made for collecting berries and washing.

One thing I would say is that the patriarchy is at least kind of balanced by the fact that men are judged on their job. A women with little or no income will typically get more dates on dating site than a man who has little or no income. For women there's a glass ceiling yet also a glass floor.

[Fahran]

What does everyone here think of this piece of Graffiti Art that was once in my hometown?

I thought the original artwork was quite tastefully done and it looked like they had a real woman to pose for the artwork, but other people clearly disagreed and graffitied over it.

How are we defining tasteful here? To me, the image looks pretty erotic and I imagine that's what the artist had in mind. A woman posing for it doesn't mean that it isn't objectifying on some level. Women model in Playboy magazines too, and we all know the intention behind those. Mind you, I get that some art is erotic or pornographic. I think the issue here is how public this art is. Audience interaction, no?

[The Islamic Caliphate of the Balkans]

As I have said at the beginning, I do not support forcing that way of life on either women or men. I just would encourage women to stay at home, have children, do the chores, and men to work and bring the money home. However, if anyone wants to do it in a different way, such as both working and doing the chores, stay at home dad and working mom, etc, that is fine to me. I believe in certain things, but I do not wish to force that think on anyone. Besides, this is a game. And I am conservative, but not to that extreme.

[The Islamic Caliphate of the Balkans]

What does everyone here think of this piece of Graffiti Art that was once in my hometown?

I thought the original artwork was quite tastefully done and it looked like they had a real woman to pose for the artwork, but other people clearly disagreed and graffitied over it.

How are we defining tasteful here? To me, the image looks pretty erotic and I imagine that's what the artist had in mind. A woman posing for it doesn't mean that it isn't objectifying on some level. Women model in Playboy magazines too, and we all know the intention behind those. Mind you, I get that some art is erotic or pornographic. I think the issue here is how public this art is. Audience interaction, no?

Nowadays everything is sexist/objectifying.

[Kowani]

How are we defining tasteful here? To me, the image looks pretty erotic and I imagine that's what the artist had in mind. A woman posing for it doesn't mean that it isn't objectifying on some level. Women model in Playboy magazines too, and we all know the intention behind those. Mind you, I get that some art is erotic or pornographic. I think the issue here is how public this art is. Audience interaction, no?

Nowadays everything is sexist/objectifying.

conservative rhetoric, people
when you can't argue a point, allude to "modern sensibilities bad"
and somehow, this works on millions of people

"everyone's so offended" "everything is racist" "everything is sexist" now
it's the same old delegitimization strategy
it's just dumb

[Fahran]

Nowadays everything is sexist/objectifying.

Well, no, but an image of a woman posing erotically in the way shown above is definitely objectifying and deliberately so. Again, I get that erotic art and pornography are things that some people may want to access, but the audience is often able to interact with public art installations and, in the case of street art, the reaction was fair play, assuming this mural(?) wasn't protected by local laws and governments.

It actually reminds me of a cleaning lady at a museum who threw a modern art exhibit made of toilet paper into the trash because she thought it was trash. If an artist poses a question, implicitly or explicitly, to their audience, they should anticipate a measured response appropriate to the work, the media, and the location.

The piece of modern art asked "what is really art?". The cleaning lady answered "not this." The grafitti asked "what is the role of women and sexuality in society?". The audience answered "not this."

[Fahran]

conservative rhetoric, people
when you can't argue a point, allude to "modern sensibilities bad"
and somehow, this works on millions of people

"everyone's so offended" "everything is racist" "everything is sexist" now
it's the same old delegitimization strategy
it's just dumb

Amusingly enough, my argument on this is probably the more conservative one in many respects. I've just put a little more effort into it. I could probably argue the other side just as well, and have argued the other side in the past with regard to art and aesthetics.

[Eighth Eurasia]

What does everyone here think of this piece of Graffiti Art that was once in my hometown?

I thought the original artwork was quite tastefully done and it looked like they had a real woman to pose for the artwork, but other people clearly disagreed and graffitied over it.

How are we defining tasteful here? To me, the image looks pretty erotic and I imagine that's what the artist had in mind.

I'm not sure if the artist was a man or a woman, but the original artwork was entitled gender trouble after the famous feminist non-fiction novel- the woman is even reading it in the art. I'm fairly certain eroticism was not the intention.

A woman posing for it doesn't mean that it isn't objectifying on some level. Women model in Playboy magazines too, and we all know the intention behind those.

What I meant was an average(ish) young woman. She looks very androgynous, sad and serious, not hyper-feminine, playful and flirty. She has A-cups too, so she's not some page 3 girl or playboy playmate.

Mind you, I get that some art is erotic or pornographic. I think the issue here is how public this art is. Audience interaction, no?

Understandable. It is long gone now, but I just wanted to talk to some feminists about it.

[Saiwania]

People don't care about objectification in my experience, asides from those that want to complain. People will just do what they will or always have done because that's easier. I'd say its crossing a line too far, primarily if someone is harassing someone else or not keeping their hands to themselves if it isn't wanted. Otherwise, just looking or remarking in private is usually okay.

Its not a good place to be in my view, to worry all that much about what other people might be doing or thinking.

[Grave_n_idle]

Here's the problem - in order to argue that I'm infantilizing females, you have literally had to refer to the Republic of Sudan. You had to bring to the table a 'republic' so far out on the extreme of horrible human rights that they only outlawed crucifixion within the lifetime of my kids.

You're arguing that women have greater autonomy and that my contradiction of it is "infantilizing women and trying to remove their agency" by using as an example a state where women are so powerless that they can literally be forced into legal child marriages.

You're so desperate to prove an unsupportable point that you've blinded yourself to what your evidence actually says.

Nope. You just made that up.

As Bettina Shell-Duncan stated, "If we look at data across Africa, the support for the practice is stronger among women than among men." She conducted personal research in Kenya, Gambia, and Senegal, and consulted other studies across Africa (which is where most FGM takes place) and came to the conclusion that it's women who promote and push this practice moreso than men.

https://anthropology.washington.edu/new ... ell-duncan

Educate yourself.

As you said:

You're so desperate to prove an unsupportable point that you've blinded yourself to what your evidence actually says.

When you make a claim like you did - again, without a single shred of evidence supporting it - make up lies trying to support it, and then dismiss the evidence presented to by multiple learned scholars on the subject, you are acting desperate to prove an unsupportable point to the point you've blinded yourself to what the evidence actually says.

I really think you should read things before you post them. I'm not saying some of these academics have never been to other African states.

How about you go back and read what you posted and get all caught up, and then we'll move forward with the arguments about Sudan that your own source said was about Sudan, and then we can - if you wish - move onto the fact that genital mutilation also exists in other parts of Africa?

[Fahran]

I'm not sure if the artist was a man or a woman, but the original artwork was entitled gender trouble after the famous feminist non-fiction novel- the woman is even reading it in the art. I'm fairly certain eroticism was not the intention.

I was unaware of that detail, though, given the pose of the woman and the substance of "Gender Trouble", the erotic can actually serve to elucidate the themes of Butler's foundational work. This ensures that both the original street art and the grafitti response exist in a spirited conversation about the meaning of womanhood, sexuality, and gender. Heck, even the street art itself represents a response and, potentially, a challenge to Butler's theses.

What I meant was an average(ish) young woman. She looks very sad and serious, not playful and flirty. She has A-cups too, so she's not some page 3 girl or playboy playmate.

I do not think the erotic has to be narrowly defined here in all honesty. The erotic can be and often is intended to be intellectually stimulating, serving the purpose of political and social commentary. A-cups can be erotic too. Boob equality now.

Understandable. It is long gone now, but I just wanted to talk to some feminists about it.

Of course! It's an interesting subject!

[Fahran]

People don't care about objectification in my experience, asides from those that want to complain. People will just do what they will or always have done because that's easier. I'd say its crossing a line too far, primarily if someone is harassing someone else or not keeping their hands to themselves if it isn't wanted. Otherwise, just looking or remarking in private is usually okay.

Its not a good place to be in my view, to worry all that much about what other people might be doing or thinking.

I think there's a difference between a discussion of the aesthetic and the political as a matter of academic/intellectual discourse and a studied awareness of objectification that carries into all interpersonal exchanges. I'm not going to reflect on a regular basis about the social implications of my boyfriend telling me he thinks I look pretty because that's probably not healthy for me. That said, in these broader conversations, it can be insightful and useful to reflect on such issues.