The NationStates Feminism Thread IV: Fight Like A Girl!

[Shu Chengdu]

I feel like there's a joke to be made with sex work and socialism, means of production and all that.

Equal distribution across the spectrum.

[Proctopeo]

Yes, but it will not and cannot be present in socialism.

Bold claim
In its present (or even historical) form, no
Entirely nonexistent? Not so certain

Even in the absence of formal currency, people still exchange things with value, whether it's perceived or real. In some form, money has existed for an incredibly long time, longer than writing. While an interesting concept, abolishing money is going to immediately fail.

[Auzkhia]

Bold claim
In its present (or even historical) form, no
Entirely nonexistent? Not so certain

Is it really sex work if you don't get paid for it though?

There is a lot of unpaid work that goes on.

And I think the *feminist* thread is the best place to talk about that.

[Nakena]

Why though?

Seriously, why is sex so wrong in your eyes?

Because it supposedly offends his church and the gods he worships. Yeshua and Yaweh.

Yes it does, but we have to commit ourselves to making it stop.

As a pansexual nympho...I say nay.

What she said.

[Kowani]

Bold claim
In its present (or even historical) form, no
Entirely nonexistent? Not so certain

Even in the absence of formal currency, people still exchange things with value, whether it's perceived or real. In some form, money has existed for an incredibly long time, longer than writing. While an interesting concept, abolishing money is going to immediately fail.

I presumed UMN and I were talking about sex work, not money
Anyway, the “perceived/real” distinction isn’t really one that holds up to a rigorous economic analysis, because most commodity money has historically, only been useful as currency. It’s much more useful to differentiate it from fiat currency by analyzing the different laws of supply and demand for each
Or we could use Knapp’s state theory of money, which is a good deal more interesting

Basically: money fills a lot more roles than just a unit of exchange and any attempt to place it within a socialist paradigm has to take that into account

[Bienenhalde]

Is it really sex work if you don't get paid for it though?

There is a lot of unpaid work that goes on.

And I think the *feminist* thread is the best place to talk about that.

If someone finds sex to be so unpleasant that they will not do it without pay, then I would think that person was better off not having sex at all.

[Shu Chengdu]

Still trying to wrap my head around “sex being unpleasant”...

[Bienenhalde]

I understand where it would seem unfair to expell children from school because of their parents' actions, but perhaps the children would have been better off being raised by different parents.

[Suriyanakhon]

That still doesn't relate to the children of the parents though, and doesn't explain punishing them for something outside of their control.

Yeah, it does not merit expelling children, like, firing, while something I would not agree with, is still kinda reasonable even if their reasons are BS.

It bothers me on a personal level because I grew up in an extremely rural community where my parents were unmarried, which is something that resulted in us being semi-ostracized with disapproving comments. It wouldn't have been surprising had I been thrown out of the school I was attending, and the fact that people think that would have been okay is a bit disturbing.

[Auzkhia]

I understand where it would seem unfair to expell children from school because of their parents' actions, but perhaps the children would have been better off being raised by different parents.

Careful you might break that pearl necklace of yours.

Still trying to wrap my head around “sex being unpleasant”...

Sometimes it can be disappointing or unpleasant, especially when you don't have the right rapport and might doing it for the wrong reasons, oh wait this isn't my therapy session.

[Fahran]

I feel like there's a joke to be made with sex work and socialism, means of production and all that.

Means of reproduction. :^)

[Fahran]

If we define “paid” as exclusive to money, no
But that’s a bad definition so we’re not gonna do that

I mean... Taking the transactional nature out of sex work changes it in many respects in much the same way that taking the transactional nature out of building a house with your neighbors changes the nature of construction work.

[Fahran]

Still trying to wrap my head around “sex being unpleasant”...

I'm certain it can be markedly unpleasant depending on the precise circumstances.

[Shu Chengdu]

Still trying to wrap my head around “sex being unpleasant”...

I'm certain it can be markedly unpleasant depending on the precise circumstances.

I mean yeah, but I’m talking consensual with a desired partner. Or interpreting rather. Just to clarify.

[Borderlands of Rojava]

I feel like there's a joke to be made with sex work and socialism, means of production and all that.

"And we share our hoes, bitch let the squad enter."

-Comrade Gino Marley, War, Comrades Gino Marley, SD, and Fredo Santana.

[Borderlands of Rojava]

Still trying to wrap my head around “sex being unpleasant”...

Unpleasant sex is a thing. Here, let Chef explain: https://youtu.be/32xVdxnssy4

[Suriyanakhon]

Still trying to wrap my head around “sex being unpleasant”...

One or both partners not really knowing what they're doing.

[Fahran]

I mean yeah, but I’m talking consensual with a desired partner. Or interpreting rather. Just to clarify.

You don't have to be attracted to a person to consent to sexual activity, and, notably, a lot of sex workers probably aren't altogether attracted to their clients. They're doing what they do for a pay check after all. This is why it's bad manners to fall in love with a stripper or e-girl/boy.

[Punished UMN]

Yes, but it will not and cannot be present in socialism.

Sex work will still exist, it just won't be the same as it is now. Sure money is often a reason, but I know some people who genuinely liked it, and had more power in a transaction than any other so called legitimate job offered them.

Having casual sex for enjoyment is not sex work.

[Punished UMN]

Yes, but it will not and cannot be present in socialism.

Bold claim
In its present (or even historical) form, no
Entirely nonexistent? Not so certain

Monetary exchange taking place under socialism wouldn't even be coherent, if all commodities are owned in common and there is not private commodity production or accumulation, then you wouldn't need to be paid for anything anyway. What would you be given for sex work? Nothing you can't already have, so why bother with it? Monetary exchange necessitates that there is an uneven distribution of commodities and commodity accumulation, this is not socialism.

[Shu Chengdu]

Still trying to wrap my head around “sex being unpleasant”...

One or both partners not really knowing what they're doing.

I’d say both. If one knows what they are doing they can guide the inexperienced partner to bliss if they play it smooth and meaningly. But I hear you.

[Shu Chengdu]

I mean yeah, but I’m talking consensual with a desired partner. Or interpreting rather. Just to clarify.

You don't have to be attracted to a person to consent to sexual activity, and, notably, a lot of sex workers probably aren't altogether attracted to their clients. They're doing what they do for a pay check after all. This is why it's bad manners to fall in love with a stripper or e-girl/boy.

I was really talking sex in general not sec work per se, and TBH being a bit of a smart ass when I said that. Personally I wouldn’t want to be a sex worker. Getting paid for it is nice and all but I’d rather not... well... have to pleasure one outside my pallet for a paycheck.

[Punished UMN]

Also, sex work isn't productive work and therefore doesn't contribute to socialist production. It doesn't create value, only rearranges it.

[Kowani]

If we define “paid” as exclusive to money, no
But that’s a bad definition so we’re not gonna do that

I mean... Taking the transactional nature out of sex work changes it in many respects in much the same way that taking the transactional nature out of building a house with your neighbors changes the nature of construction work.

You can have a transaction without money, ‘Ran

Bold claim
In its present (or even historical) form, no
Entirely nonexistent? Not so certain

Monetary exchange taking place under socialism wouldn't even be coherent, if all commodities are owned in common and there is not private commodity production or accumulation, then you wouldn't need to be paid for anything anyway. What would you be given for sex work? Nothing you can't already have, so why bother with it? Monetary exchange necessitates that there is an uneven distribution of commodities and commodity accumulation, this is not socialism.

Okay I was specifically talking about sex work, not money
Money under socialism is something that while absolutely fascinating, I really don’t wanna try to explain it on my phone and this is also not the thread

[Galloism]

I mean... Taking the transactional nature out of sex work changes it in many respects in much the same way that taking the transactional nature out of building a house with your neighbors changes the nature of construction work.

You can have a transaction without money, ‘Ran

Monetary exchange taking place under socialism wouldn't even be coherent, if all commodities are owned in common and there is not private commodity production or accumulation, then you wouldn't need to be paid for anything anyway. What would you be given for sex work? Nothing you can't already have, so why bother with it? Monetary exchange necessitates that there is an uneven distribution of commodities and commodity accumulation, this is not socialism.

Okay I was specifically talking about sex work, not money
Money under socialism is something that while absolutely fascinating, I really don’t wanna try to explain it on my phone and this is also not the thread

Something something seize the means of reproduction.