The NationStates Feminism Thread IV: Fight Like A Girl!

[Nekostan-e Gharbi]

Japan has changed extraordinarily throughout history though. It's susceptible to change as much as any other place.

Especially during the 19th and 20th centuries, the most recent previous centuries have been the biggest changes in Japan for a while, especially after nearly three centuries of Sakoku, the Meiji restoration had seen the gradual adoption of so many western customs.

Yup but that’s due to the country being in mortal danger.

[Suriyanakhon]

Japan has changed extraordinarily throughout history though. It's susceptible to change as much as any other place.

Especially during the 19th and 20th centuries, the most recent previous centuries have been the biggest changes in Japan for a while, especially after nearly three centuries of Sakoku, the Meiji restoration had seen the gradual adoption of so many western customs.

Rangaku intensifies.

[Nekostan-e Gharbi]

Especially during the 19th and 20th centuries, the most recent previous centuries have been the biggest changes in Japan for a while, especially after nearly three centuries of Sakoku, the Meiji restoration had seen the gradual adoption of so many western customs.

Rangaku intensifies.

Yup. It doesn’t change the cultural roots of Japan though.

[Fahran]

I chimed in on a conversation about "I hate men" recently on a feminist page I follow and got called a pick-me for my troubles like three times. I also noticed that any man who complained got called an incel immediately, regardless of what their complaints were. It's like they're trying to make me even more right-wing at this point. I'm still a feminist, of course, but I think we need to do some house-cleaning.

[Giovenith]

I chimed in on a conversation about "I hate men" recently on a feminist page I follow and got called a pick-me for my troubles like three times. I also noticed that any man who complained got called an incel immediately, regardless of what their complaints were. It's like they're trying to make me even more right-wing at this point. I'm still a feminist, of course, but I think we need to do some house-cleaning.

It's an unfortunate problem.

Personally, I'd go so far as to say that not hating men is far more radically feminist than misandry. Not just because "oh feminism is about equality for everyone" either. I think to embrace misandry is to embrace the notion that men cannot be expected to behave themselves, which is one of the oldest excuses for poor behavior from men and mistreatment against women in the book. A bad man does not care that you hate him because he is a man, in fact, it often delights him: abusive people want you to believe that that's "just the way they are," because it means that they don't have to change and the rest of the world has to learn to live with them.

When you internalize that men are perfectly capable of respect, kindness, civility, love, and equality, you more strongly expect them to demonstrate those traits, just like you expect them to tie their own shoes. And when someone fails to do something that you expect from them, it stands out more strongly that this was an active choice on their part, and active choices are more easily condemned and their perpetrator held responsible. It's not something they just couldn't help but do because of the way they were born, and they will not find solidarity or solace by looking to the men around them — it takes the finger that they're pointing at nature or other men and points it right back where it belongs, at themselves. I don't hate men. I hate men who are assholes. And they are assholes because they chose to be assholes, not because they're helpless victims of the circumstances of their birth. I'm not going to give assholes the satisfaction of believing that there's nothing they could do to earn my approval and thus nothing they must do.

Misandry (aside from being just plain wrong in it of itself for the way it hurts innocent boys and men) is the perpetuation of the "boys will be boys" mentality and that doesn't change just because you're doing so contemptuously (kind of like how telling women to stay in the kitchen doesn't suddenly become non-oppressive just because you gush about how important and honorable kitchen duty is, i.e. benevolent sexism).

[Luminesa]

I chimed in on a conversation about "I hate men" recently on a feminist page I follow and got called a pick-me for my troubles like three times. I also noticed that any man who complained got called an incel immediately, regardless of what their complaints were. It's like they're trying to make me even more right-wing at this point. I'm still a feminist, of course, but I think we need to do some house-cleaning.

It's an unfortunate problem.

Personally, I'd go so far as to say that not hating men is far more radically feminist than misandry. Not just because "oh feminism is about equality for everyone" either. I think to embrace misandry is to embrace the notion that men cannot be expected to behave themselves, which is one of the oldest excuses for poor behavior from men and mistreatment against women in the book. A bad man does not care that you hate him because he is a man, in fact, it often delights him: abusive people want you to believe that that's "just the way they are," because it means that they don't have to change and the rest of the world has to learn to live with them.

When you internalize that men are perfectly capable of respect, kindness, civility, love, and equality, you more strongly expect them to demonstrate those traits, just like you expect them to tie their own shoes. And when someone fails to do something that you expect from them, it stands out more strongly that this was an active choice on their part, and active choices are more easily condemned and their perpetrator held responsible. It's not something they just couldn't help but do because of the way they were born, and they will not find solidarity or solace by looking to the men around them — it takes the finger that they're pointing at nature or other men and points it right back where it belongs, at themselves. I don't hate men. I hate men who are assholes. And they are assholes because they chose to be assholes, not because they're helpless victims of the circumstances of their birth. I'm not going to give assholes the satisfaction of believing that there's nothing they could do to earn my approval and thus nothing they must do.

Misandry (aside from being just plain wrong in it of itself for the way it hurts innocent boys and men) is the perpetuation of the "boys will be boys" mentality and that doesn't change just because you're doing so contemptuously (kind of like how telling women to stay in the kitchen doesn't suddenly become non-oppressive just because you gush about how important and honorable kitchen duty is, i.e. benevolent sexism).

Very much agree on the bolded part. Young boys and men need to be taught to internalize that they are not miserable, over-aggressive little skirt-chasing caricatures, but that they are human beings capable of love and virtue. Otherwise they figure love and kindness are for sissies, and we get emotionally-stifled men with mounting mental health crises.

[Vassenor]

I chimed in on a conversation about "I hate men" recently on a feminist page I follow and got called a pick-me for my troubles like three times. I also noticed that any man who complained got called an incel immediately, regardless of what their complaints were. It's like they're trying to make me even more right-wing at this point. I'm still a feminist, of course, but I think we need to do some house-cleaning.

It's an unfortunate problem.

Personally, I'd go so far as to say that not hating men is far more radically feminist than misandry. Not just because "oh feminism is about equality for everyone" either. I think to embrace misandry is to embrace the notion that men cannot be expected to behave themselves, which is one of the oldest excuses for poor behavior from men and mistreatment against women in the book. A bad man does not care that you hate him because he is a man, in fact, it often delights him: abusive people want you to believe that that's "just the way they are," because it means that they don't have to change and the rest of the world has to learn to live with them.

When you internalize that men are perfectly capable of respect, kindness, civility, love, and equality, you more strongly expect them to demonstrate those traits, just like you expect them to tie their own shoes. And when someone fails to do something that you expect from them, it stands out more strongly that this was an active choice on their part, and active choices are more easily condemned and their perpetrator held responsible. It's not something they just couldn't help but do because of the way they were born, and they will not find solidarity or solace by looking to the men around them — it takes the finger that they're pointing at nature or other men and points it right back where it belongs, at themselves. I don't hate men. I hate men who are assholes. And they are assholes because they chose to be assholes, not because they're helpless victims of the circumstances of their birth. I'm not going to give assholes the satisfaction of believing that there's nothing they could do to earn my approval and thus nothing they must do.

Misandry (aside from being just plain wrong in it of itself for the way it hurts innocent boys and men) is the perpetuation of the "boys will be boys" mentality and that doesn't change just because you're doing so contemptuously (kind of like how telling women to stay in the kitchen doesn't suddenly become non-oppressive just because you gush about how important and honorable kitchen duty is, i.e. benevolent sexism).

So why does none of that gel with any of the feminist circles I've engaged with?

[Luminesa]

It's an unfortunate problem.

Personally, I'd go so far as to say that not hating men is far more radically feminist than misandry. Not just because "oh feminism is about equality for everyone" either. I think to embrace misandry is to embrace the notion that men cannot be expected to behave themselves, which is one of the oldest excuses for poor behavior from men and mistreatment against women in the book. A bad man does not care that you hate him because he is a man, in fact, it often delights him: abusive people want you to believe that that's "just the way they are," because it means that they don't have to change and the rest of the world has to learn to live with them.

When you internalize that men are perfectly capable of respect, kindness, civility, love, and equality, you more strongly expect them to demonstrate those traits, just like you expect them to tie their own shoes. And when someone fails to do something that you expect from them, it stands out more strongly that this was an active choice on their part, and active choices are more easily condemned and their perpetrator held responsible. It's not something they just couldn't help but do because of the way they were born, and they will not find solidarity or solace by looking to the men around them — it takes the finger that they're pointing at nature or other men and points it right back where it belongs, at themselves. I don't hate men. I hate men who are assholes. And they are assholes because they chose to be assholes, not because they're helpless victims of the circumstances of their birth. I'm not going to give assholes the satisfaction of believing that there's nothing they could do to earn my approval and thus nothing they must do.

Misandry (aside from being just plain wrong in it of itself for the way it hurts innocent boys and men) is the perpetuation of the "boys will be boys" mentality and that doesn't change just because you're doing so contemptuously (kind of like how telling women to stay in the kitchen doesn't suddenly become non-oppressive just because you gush about how important and honorable kitchen duty is, i.e. benevolent sexism).

So why does none of that gel with any of the feminist circles I've engaged with?

I mean Fahran experienced it, things do happen outside of feminist groups you yourself interact with. Don't go around minimizing other people's experiences.

[Sundiata]

It's an unfortunate problem.

Personally, I'd go so far as to say that not hating men is far more radically feminist than misandry. Not just because "oh feminism is about equality for everyone" either. I think to embrace misandry is to embrace the notion that men cannot be expected to behave themselves, which is one of the oldest excuses for poor behavior from men and mistreatment against women in the book. A bad man does not care that you hate him because he is a man, in fact, it often delights him: abusive people want you to believe that that's "just the way they are," because it means that they don't have to change and the rest of the world has to learn to live with them.

When you internalize that men are perfectly capable of respect, kindness, civility, love, and equality, you more strongly expect them to demonstrate those traits, just like you expect them to tie their own shoes. And when someone fails to do something that you expect from them, it stands out more strongly that this was an active choice on their part, and active choices are more easily condemned and their perpetrator held responsible. It's not something they just couldn't help but do because of the way they were born, and they will not find solidarity or solace by looking to the men around them — it takes the finger that they're pointing at nature or other men and points it right back where it belongs, at themselves. I don't hate men. I hate men who are assholes. And they are assholes because they chose to be assholes, not because they're helpless victims of the circumstances of their birth. I'm not going to give assholes the satisfaction of believing that there's nothing they could do to earn my approval and thus nothing they must do.

Misandry (aside from being just plain wrong in it of itself for the way it hurts innocent boys and men) is the perpetuation of the "boys will be boys" mentality and that doesn't change just because you're doing so contemptuously (kind of like how telling women to stay in the kitchen doesn't suddenly become non-oppressive just because you gush about how important and honorable kitchen duty is, i.e. benevolent sexism).

Very much agree on the bolded part. Young boys and men need to be taught to internalize that they are not miserable, over-aggressive little skirt-chasing caricatures, but that they are human beings capable of love and virtue. Otherwise they figure love and kindness are for sissies, and we get emotionally-stifled men with mounting mental health crises.

I've had the blessing to meet men who are extraordinarily virtuous people. To see the seven virtues embodied in the way a man leads his life is reason enough for great exuberance.

[Giovenith]

So why does none of that gel with any of the feminist circles I've engaged with?

Vass, I know that you're smart enough to know that "but it never happened to me" is not a valid counterpoint. Your experiences are not universal.

[Luminesa]

Very much agree on the bolded part. Young boys and men need to be taught to internalize that they are not miserable, over-aggressive little skirt-chasing caricatures, but that they are human beings capable of love and virtue. Otherwise they figure love and kindness are for sissies, and we get emotionally-stifled men with mounting mental health crises.

I've had the blessing to meet men who are extraordinarily virtuous people. To see the seven virtues embodied in the way a man leads his life is reason enough for great exuberance.

...If we want to be pedantic, there are nine fruits of the Holy Spirit. But the same idea.

[The Blaatschapen]

When you internalize that men are perfectly capable of respect, kindness, civility, love, and equality, you more strongly expect them to demonstrate those traits, just like you expect them to tie their own shoes.

I am perfectly capable of respect, kindness, civility, love and equality.

But tieing my shoes.

I have hooves, how do you expect this

[Sundiata]

I've had the blessing to meet men who are extraordinarily virtuous people. To see the seven virtues embodied in the way a man leads his life is reason enough for great exuberance.

...If we want to be pedantic, there are nine fruits of the Holy Spirit. But the same idea.

Yes!

[Borderlands of Rojava]

I chimed in on a conversation about "I hate men" recently on a feminist page I follow and got called a pick-me for my troubles like three times. I also noticed that any man who complained got called an incel immediately, regardless of what their complaints were. It's like they're trying to make me even more right-wing at this point. I'm still a feminist, of course, but I think we need to do some house-cleaning.

If you drew a venn diagram and one circle was "mysandrist" and the other circle was "daddy issues," people would say "where's the other circle? Why is there only one?" Alot of people who hate the other gender tend to be losers and embarrassments, whether it's MGTOW types or anti male "feminists." You tend not to be against 50% of the population unless you had a bad experience as a kid and won't let it go like normal people do.

[Ostroeuropa]

When you internalize that men are perfectly capable of respect, kindness, civility, love, and equality, you more strongly expect them to demonstrate those traits, just like you expect them to tie their own shoes.

I am perfectly capable of respect, kindness, civility, love and equality.

But tieing my shoes.

I have hooves, how do you expect this

I am now suffering an existential crisis as I realize no ponies in MLP wore laced shoes, only slippers.

[Borderlands of Rojava]

It's an unfortunate problem.

Personally, I'd go so far as to say that not hating men is far more radically feminist than misandry. Not just because "oh feminism is about equality for everyone" either. I think to embrace misandry is to embrace the notion that men cannot be expected to behave themselves, which is one of the oldest excuses for poor behavior from men and mistreatment against women in the book. A bad man does not care that you hate him because he is a man, in fact, it often delights him: abusive people want you to believe that that's "just the way they are," because it means that they don't have to change and the rest of the world has to learn to live with them.

When you internalize that men are perfectly capable of respect, kindness, civility, love, and equality, you more strongly expect them to demonstrate those traits, just like you expect them to tie their own shoes. And when someone fails to do something that you expect from them, it stands out more strongly that this was an active choice on their part, and active choices are more easily condemned and their perpetrator held responsible. It's not something they just couldn't help but do because of the way they were born, and they will not find solidarity or solace by looking to the men around them — it takes the finger that they're pointing at nature or other men and points it right back where it belongs, at themselves. I don't hate men. I hate men who are assholes. And they are assholes because they chose to be assholes, not because they're helpless victims of the circumstances of their birth. I'm not going to give assholes the satisfaction of believing that there's nothing they could do to earn my approval and thus nothing they must do.

Misandry (aside from being just plain wrong in it of itself for the way it hurts innocent boys and men) is the perpetuation of the "boys will be boys" mentality and that doesn't change just because you're doing so contemptuously (kind of like how telling women to stay in the kitchen doesn't suddenly become non-oppressive just because you gush about how important and honorable kitchen duty is, i.e. benevolent sexism).

So why does none of that gel with any of the feminist circles I've engaged with?

So far two people have said it gels with the ones they've dealt with, and I'm pretty sure both are women and feminists so idk, your personal experiences don't disprove that of others.

[Auzkhia]

Phrases like "men are trash" should be unpacked with a shitload of nuance.

Like, saying "some men are trash", while technically more accurate, is less effective rhetorically. I generally take the stance if a man is personally bothered by phrases like that, than he is basically admitting to be part of the problem. A good man wouldn't be bothered by "men are trash" anymore than a white person hearing "white people are the devil" from PoC or a cis person hearing "down with cis" from a trans person. It's all about punching up, not punching down, especially when it comes from a place of venting and unloading pain and trauma. A woman may distrust men often because she has been hurt. That does resonate with me, especially as a trans woman. Men do not treat me like their equals. I never really fit in with boys, but not really with girls, I was left on my own. Of course I'm also genderqueer and the non-binary community helped, but the whole transgender community was my lifeline. And soon I found more acceptance from cis women. And going back to men, I know that I am not one, but like, I kinda can sympathize with them in a way but also not really? I just stopped pretending to be a man, rejecting what was socially expected of me, because of some roles imposed me with the symbolic mistake of the gender marker on the original birth certificate printed almost 24 years ago. It's just that I don't need to put forward a new healthier, less toxic model of manhood and masculinity. That's not my job. Though, I'm sure the trans male and transmasculine community has a lot to say about it

The most common objection is that it is misandrist, and it's technically true, though misandry doesn't really have the same institutional weight behind it like misogyny. Sexism is not a one way street, it's a traffic jam of drunks. Hot take, I know. Though misandry in a patriarchal society is an undercurrent of sexism and misogyny alike. The stringent roles and behaviors imposed on men have been their weak points.

I support more gender freedom, even for men, to be freed from patriarchal value systems, even if they have, for the most part, benefited from it, as a whole, and any caveats are due to other factors, like race, class, sexuality, being trans (and that's a whole can of worms, but trans men are men), and ability.

Ideally, "men are trash" would be hateful or at least useless and weird to say. As of now, enough men for it to be understandable.

[Borderlands of Rojava]

Phrases like "men are trash" should be unpacked with a shitload of nuance.

Like, saying "some men are trash", while technically more accurate, is less effective rhetorically. I generally take the stance if a man is personally bothered by phrases like that, than he is basically admitting to be part of the problem. A good man wouldn't be bothered by "men are trash" anymore than a white person hearing "white people are the devil" from PoC or a cis person hearing "down with cis" from a trans person. It's all about punching up, not punching down, especially when it comes from a place of venting and unloading pain and trauma. A woman may distrust men often because she has been hurt. That does resonate with me, especially as a trans woman. Men do not treat me like their equals. I never really fit in with boys, but not really with girls, I was left on my own. Of course I'm also genderqueer and the non-binary community helped, but the whole transgender community was my lifeline. And soon I found more acceptance from cis women. And going back to men, I know that I am not one, but like, I kinda can sympathize with them in a way but also not really? I just stopped pretending to be a man, rejecting what was socially expected of me, because of some roles imposed me with the symbolic mistake of the gender marker on the original birth certificate printed almost 24 years ago. It's just that I don't need to put forward a new healthier, less toxic model of manhood and masculinity. That's not my job. Though, I'm sure the trans male and transmasculine community has a lot to say about it

The most common objection is that it is misandrist, and it's technically true, though misandry doesn't really have the same institutional weight behind it like misogyny. Sexism is not a one way street, it's a traffic jam of drunks. Hot take, I know. Though misandry in a patriarchal society is an undercurrent of sexism and misogyny alike. The stringent roles and behaviors imposed on men have been their weak points.

I support more gender freedom, even for men, to be freed from patriarchal value systems, even if they have, for the most part, benefited from it, as a whole, and any caveats are due to other factors, like race, class, sexuality, being trans (and that's a whole can of worms, but trans men are men), and ability.

Ideally, "men are trash" would be hateful or at least useless and weird to say. As of now, enough men for it to be understandable.

I guess I shouldn't be bothered then when someone says "Hispanics are drug runners."

[Giovenith]

I am perfectly capable of respect, kindness, civility, love and equality.

But tieing my shoes.

I have hooves, how do you expect this

I am now suffering an existential crisis as I realize no ponies in MLP wore laced shoes, only slippers.

The real mindfuck is questioning what they need shoes with heels or toes for.

[Celritannia]

Georgia considering “a panel of three physicians” to evaluate girls’ genitals for school sports

[Punished UMN]

Georgia considering “a panel of three physicians” to evaluate girls’ genitals for school sports

What a bunch of fucking weirdos.

[The New California Republic]

I am now suffering an existential crisis as I realize no ponies in MLP wore laced shoes, only slippers.

The real mindfuck is questioning what they need shoes with heels or toes for.

It's called being f a b u l o u s darling.

[Nekostan-e Gharbi]

Phrases like "men are trash" should be unpacked with a shitload of nuance.

Like, saying "some men are trash", while technically more accurate, is less effective rhetorically. I generally take the stance if a man is personally bothered by phrases like that, than he is basically admitting to be part of the problem. A good man wouldn't be bothered by "men are trash" anymore than a white person hearing "white people are the devil" from PoC or a cis person hearing "down with cis" from a trans person. It's all about punching up, not punching down, especially when it comes from a place of venting and unloading pain and trauma. A woman may distrust men often because she has been hurt. That does resonate with me, especially as a trans woman. Men do not treat me like their equals. I never really fit in with boys, but not really with girls, I was left on my own. Of course I'm also genderqueer and the non-binary community helped, but the whole transgender community was my lifeline. And soon I found more acceptance from cis women. And going back to men, I know that I am not one, but like, I kinda can sympathize with them in a way but also not really? I just stopped pretending to be a man, rejecting what was socially expected of me, because of some roles imposed me with the symbolic mistake of the gender marker on the original birth certificate printed almost 24 years ago. It's just that I don't need to put forward a new healthier, less toxic model of manhood and masculinity. That's not my job. Though, I'm sure the trans male and transmasculine community has a lot to say about it

The most common objection is that it is misandrist, and it's technically true, though misandry doesn't really have the same institutional weight behind it like misogyny. Sexism is not a one way street, it's a traffic jam of drunks. Hot take, I know. Though misandry in a patriarchal society is an undercurrent of sexism and misogyny alike. The stringent roles and behaviors imposed on men have been their weak points.

I support more gender freedom, even for men, to be freed from patriarchal value systems, even if they have, for the most part, benefited from it, as a whole, and any caveats are due to other factors, like race, class, sexuality, being trans (and that's a whole can of worms, but trans men are men), and ability.

Ideally, "men are trash" would be hateful or at least useless and weird to say. As of now, enough men for it to be understandable.

I guess I shouldn't be bothered then when someone says "Hispanics are drug runners."

Not that many Hispanics run drugs though.

[Sundiata]

Phrases like "men are trash" should be unpacked with a shitload of nuance.

Like, saying "some men are trash", while technically more accurate, is less effective rhetorically. I generally take the stance if a man is personally bothered by phrases like that, than he is basically admitting to be part of the problem. A good man wouldn't be bothered by "men are trash" anymore than a white person hearing "white people are the devil" from PoC or a cis person hearing "down with cis" from a trans person. It's all about punching up, not punching down, especially when it comes from a place of venting and unloading pain and trauma. A woman may distrust men often because she has been hurt. That does resonate with me, especially as a trans woman. Men do not treat me like their equals. I never really fit in with boys, but not really with girls, I was left on my own. Of course I'm also genderqueer and the non-binary community helped, but the whole transgender community was my lifeline. And soon I found more acceptance from cis women. And going back to men, I know that I am not one, but like, I kinda can sympathize with them in a way but also not really? I just stopped pretending to be a man, rejecting what was socially expected of me, because of some roles imposed me with the symbolic mistake of the gender marker on the original birth certificate printed almost 24 years ago. It's just that I don't need to put forward a new healthier, less toxic model of manhood and masculinity. That's not my job. Though, I'm sure the trans male and transmasculine community has a lot to say about it

The most common objection is that it is misandrist, and it's technically true, though misandry doesn't really have the same institutional weight behind it like misogyny. Sexism is not a one way street, it's a traffic jam of drunks. Hot take, I know. Though misandry in a patriarchal society is an undercurrent of sexism and misogyny alike. The stringent roles and behaviors imposed on men have been their weak points.

I support more gender freedom, even for men, to be freed from patriarchal value systems, even if they have, for the most part, benefited from it, as a whole, and any caveats are due to other factors, like race, class, sexuality, being trans (and that's a whole can of worms, but trans men are men), and ability.

Ideally, "men are trash" would be hateful or at least useless and weird to say. As of now, enough men for it to be understandable.

I guess I shouldn't be bothered then when someone says "Hispanics are drug runners."

A lot of the people who say "men are trash," have just had bad experiences with dating or unfortunate relationships with their fathers. It's just a phase. I would also take what you hear from unmarried people who feel bitter towards men (my experience) with a grain of salt.

[Proctopeo]

I chimed in on a conversation about "I hate men" recently on a feminist page I follow and got called a pick-me for my troubles like three times. I also noticed that any man who complained got called an incel immediately, regardless of what their complaints were. It's like they're trying to make me even more right-wing at this point. I'm still a feminist, of course, but I think we need to do some house-cleaning.

Might require more than just housecleaning tbh. Such attitudes seem especially pervasive.

I guess I shouldn't be bothered then when someone says "Hispanics are drug runners."

That whole diatribe reeks of "your feelings don't matter" to me...