The NationStates Feminism Thread IV: Fight Like A Girl!

[Northern Socialist Council Republics]

Well, yes. My critique here was more so that a lot of people tend to shift premises in a manner that doesn't really make logical sense when it comes to porn and prostitution and, furthermore, that you can't really accuse someone of being dogmatic and intransigent about their paradigm when your own paradigm is similarly narrow and limited. The recent thread about the government regulating online pornography really illustrated that point well since we got to see a number of progressives using rhetoric about industries and markets that would have made Gary Johnson blush with pride. I think some of that is down to people assuming opposite positions for the sake of debate and in the service of prosecuting culture wars.

As an economic authoritarian and social libertarian, I don't think that's as much of a contradiction as you make it to be. Unless you're one of those hard-line planned economy communists, you believe that there is a place for market activity in human society. The question then becomes, why? Since markets are not inherently good (unless, I suppose, you happen to be one of those hard-line capitalists), if we believe that society is better off for having markets then it stands to reason that we believe that markets are an efficient means of pursuing something else that we find desirable.

And means are naturally defined by the ends they serve, are they not? If we believe markets to be a means to some end, then obviously we would support freer markets where that end would be better served, and we would be less passionate about free markets in cases where the market would serve its purpose poorly.

I happen to believe in markets as a means of efficiently distributing resources from people who have them to people who need them. You can follow up the rest of my reasoning on your own.

[Fahran]

That's either a strawman or a very bastardized version of utilitarianism or maybe I am too hedonistic

It's really not. The main issue with utilitarianism is that you have no way of accounting for the likelihood of future pleasure or suffering in a consistent and universally accepted manner. Or for pleasure and suffering that might have resulted from alternatives. One might, for instance, argue that "the Armenian Genocide helped to preserve the Turkish State and the fact that there are tens of millions more Turks living in peace and relative prosperity today as a result means that the suffering of a few million Armenians was justified." If the Nazis had won World War II and created an Aryan Paradise where everyone enjoyed a high standard of living, unlikely though that may be, it would have retroactively made the Nazis ethical. Merely optimizing utility is a very awful way of determining if you're doing the right thing.

But then again, I admit to being a degenerate because how dare one says that are absolutely true.

I mean... no. It's not at all intuitive that pleasurable is the same as good.

[Sundiata]

Come on.

The doctors, the choice of doctors, hospitals, from the time you're born until the time you die should all be included in a government program. Most developed countries did this for their citizens over 40 years ago. The United States is behind nearly every other developed country in matters of healthcare, education, and welfare for our citizens.

Those private actors get so much in contribution from the taxes that you pay. Your taxes pay for young people to become doctors in the first place. You pay for medical research through your taxes.

Those who say that receiving support from the government makes you weak, need I remind you that the United States settled West with taxes spent by the federal government? Heck, that's how we got to the moon. The combination of focused citizens and focused government is what made the United States the greatest economic force in history.

If that means my taxes have to go up then please, raise my taxes. You're owed the decency of not living in poverty.

[Fahran]

As an economic authoritarian and social libertarian, I don't think that's as much of a contradiction as you make it to be. Unless you're one of those hard-line planned economy communists, you believe that there is a place for market activity in human society.

I'm skeptical that a genuine communist can support the existence of conventional markets. I also have no idea how you reconcile economic authoritarianism and social libertarianism in a consistent manner, but I'd have to hear the details of your paradigm to decide how I feel about it.

The question then becomes, why? Since markets are not inherently good (unless, I suppose, you happen to be one of those hard-line capitalists), if we believe that society is better off for having markets then it stands to reason that we believe that markets are an efficient means of pursuing something else that we find desirable.

And means are naturally defined by the ends they serve, are they not? If we believe markets to be a means to some end, then obviously we would support freer markets where that end would be better served, and we would be less passionate about free markets in cases where the market would serve its purpose poorly.

I'm not certain one can pursue social ends without an eye for social means, especially not as it concerns markets when that person holds a Marxist perspective. In any case, I'm inclined to inquire what the end supported in this instance truly is. If it is an optimal degree of sexual liberation, our best approach is to reenact Stranger in a Strange Land.

I happen to believe in markets as a means of efficiently distributing resources from people who have them to people who need them. You can follow up the rest of my reasoning on your own.

That sounds decidedly capitalist to me. My views on prostitution largely begin with my philosophy surrounding sexuality, which is admittedly religious and romantic, and then proceed into the more practical formulation of policy under the assumption that, while prostitution is a form of objectification and degradation, it will occur regardless because of how our society is. I want it regulated, even if that excludes some from the market.

[Ors Might]

Honest question, have you given any thought as to how you intend to persuade people not of your faith? Because almost all of your arguments only seem sound when one assumes your religious beliefs are correct. For example, the idea that sex outside of marriage and for profit are inherently degrading is mostly based in religious teaching.

UMN gave a pretty staunch Kantian argument against prostitution a little earlier in the thread. The issue is that much of NSG has adopted a very libertarian attitude towards issues involving sexuality and the internet, one that many of them would not apply to other issues. There are plenty of arguments to be made from a wide array of paradigms, both religious and secular, but that doesn't really matter when the audience is firmly committed to secular selectively libertarian ethics.

Oh no, my point wasn’t that the religious can’t create well founded arguments against things that they oppose for religious reasons. I disagree with UMN’s stance but it’s a solid enough argument. I meant that Sun was unlikely to convince secular folk who were straddling the fence if he simply put forth his religious objections and nothing else.

[Northern Socialist Council Republics]

I'm skeptical that a genuine communist can support the existence of conventional markets. I also have no idea how you reconcile economic authoritarianism and social libertarianism in a consistent manner, but I'd have to hear the details of your paradigm to decide how I feel about it.

I consider myself a socialist only in the extensive sense of that word, and I definitely don't consider myself a communist.

Still, I'm definitely on the left side of things when it comes to things like taxation, labour rights, and social welfare issues, so I don't think I'm wrong when I say that I'm an economic authoritarian.

My views on prostitution largely begin with my philosophy surrounding sexuality, which is admittedly religious and romantic,

As I said earlier, different set of premises - different set of conclusions. As long as you don't try to feed me nonsense about your magical sky friend telling you that sexuality is beautiful or something, I can accommodate that.

I don't think anyone will disagree with you when you say that prostitution ought to be regulated. The question is in what regards and to what extents. Like any other industry I certainly think extensive provisions ought to be had for the protection of the dignity of those who work in it.

[Chessmistress]

This is down to the economic changes feminism brought about. There's a reason for more and more singleness and endless articles about a lack of "Marriage worthy men" and so on. It's because feminists fundamentally do not understand what traditionalism is, what its function was, and why it was there, and removed the economic restrictions on women without addressing the reason they were present.

I would argue that, while women being able to work was a substantial change, the current epidemic of singleness, among both young men and young women, has a good deal more to do with atomization and more generalized economic phenomena - that almost recall trends during the processes of industrialization and urbanization in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries. The advent of feminism itself cannot adequately explain the breakdown in large communal institutions which would have facilitated the creation of social networks, friendships, and romantic relationships in previous decades.

This exchange is very interesting: basically we have Ostro, an MRA, downplaying - to the point of not seeing at all - the major role played by technological advancements in the last two centuries and the still substantial role played by economical deregulations in the last four decades.

[Giovenith]

Ok everyone, whats your top 3 most iconic women of gaming? GO!

1. Lara Croft
2. Chun "I top-tiered 3rd strike" Li
3. Tifa Lockhart

All of the female Sims I've made. <3

[Bahia Roja]

Ok everyone, whats your top 3 most iconic women of gaming? GO!

1. Lara Croft
2. Chun "I top-tiered 3rd strike" Li
3. Tifa Lockhart

All of the female Sims I've made. <3

The good old days of pirating The Sims 2 on mom's laptop.

[Giovenith]

All of the female Sims I've made. <3

The good old days of pirating The Sims 2 on mom's laptop.

Only 3 for me.

Ok everyone, whats your top 3 most iconic women of gaming? GO!

1. Lara Croft
2. Chun "I top-tiered 3rd strike" Li
3. Tifa Lockhart

Iconic heavily sexualized videogame characters. That's a more fitting description.

Sexy =/= Sexualized.

Women are sexual creatures just as much as men are, and to automatically label any depiction of their sexual expression as degrading is to essentially engage in round-about slut-shaming. Looking at a woman who is sexually attractive and automatically thinking, "she has lowered/hurt herself by doing that," is bad and sexist, and doing so from the perspective that you're standing up for respect for women is benevolent sexism (think how many patriarchal types urge women to dress modestly to avoid rape and make men respect them more.) It reinforces toxic ideas about chastity being ideal in women, which in turn creates larger issues within areas such as consent and, ironically enough, objectification.

Deciding whether a female character is being sexually objectified or is just sexy needs to be based on context, such as her personality, the role she is supposed to be playing, and whether or not it is practical within the pre-established logic of the story. Not just looking at the fact that many men would be attracted to her and condemning her outright based on that.

[New haven america]

The good old days of pirating The Sims 2 on mom's laptop.

Only 3 for me.

Iconic heavily sexualized videogame characters. That's a more fitting description.

Sexy =/= Sexualized.

Women are sexual creatures just as much as men are, and to automatically label any depiction of their sexual expression as degrading is to essentially engage in round-about slut-shaming. Looking at a woman who is sexually attractive and automatically thinking, "she has lowered/hurt herself by doing that," is bad and sexist, and doing so from the perspective that you're standing up for respect for women is benevolent sexism (think how many patriarchal types urge women to dress modestly to avoid rape and make men respect them more.) It reinforces toxic ideas about chastity being ideal in women, which in turn creates larger issues within areas such as consent and, ironically enough, objectification.

Deciding whether a female character is being sexually objectified or is just sexy needs to be based on context, such as her personality, the role she is supposed to be playing, and whether or not it is practical within the pre-established logic of the story. Not just looking at the fact that many men would be attracted to her and condemning her outright based on that.

Also, as I mentioned earlier, Tifa is a total cinnamon role who really only dresses the way she does because she's a hand to hand combat fighter and does a lot of physical labor, she dresses that way because she has too.

Aeris on the other hand, while admittedly also very sweet, is the much brasher, outspoken, and confident of the 2, despite dressing pretty conservatively for the most part. I remember a bunch of people getting upset that Aeris cussed in the remake once or twice even though that's completely in line with her character, she's not the angel a lot of people think she is but she gets labeled as such because of how she looks.

FF7 was really big on the Appearance vs. Personality schtick and you can apply this to basically every character. Cloud for example is seen as the edgy badass of the franchise, but that is not true in FF7 itself at all. For the first 1/2 of the game he's viewed as an emotionally closed off weirdo by most of the cast and in the other 1/2 he's a massive dork.

[Cordel One]

What if they want to do it because they like it?

I don't care, it's degrading and depraved.

And your opinion matters why? You're not gonna gain anything by crminalizing prostitution, you're just making it a lot more dangerous for those involved.

[Sundiata]

I don't care, it's degrading and depraved.

And your opinion matters why? You're not gonna gain anything by crminalizing prostitution, you're just making it a lot more dangerous for those involved.

Not prostitutes, I have zero tolerance for pimps.

[New haven america]

And your opinion matters why? You're not gonna gain anything by crminalizing prostitution, you're just making it a lot more dangerous for those involved.

Not prostitutes, I have zero tolerance for pimps.

Who are only able to survive and thrive due to the money that they bring in due to prostitution being illegal.

[Giovenith]

And your opinion matters why? You're not gonna gain anything by crminalizing prostitution, you're just making it a lot more dangerous for those involved.

Not prostitutes, I have zero tolerance for pimps.

When people advocate for legal prostitution, they are not advocating for pimps. Nobody is pro-pimp. What they are advocating for is the ability for women to engage in sex work of their own free will, in the way they choose, when they choose, and to keep all the money for themselves. Au contraire, we are arguing that by allowing sex work to be legal, this would actually get rid of pimps because prostitutes would be treated like regular workers with rights and protections.

[Fahran]

Ok everyone, whats your top 3 most iconic women of gaming? GO!

1. Lara Croft
2. Chun "I top-tiered 3rd strike" Li
3. Tifa Lockhart

Anita Sarkeesian. :^)

[Fahran]

Who are only able to survive and thrive due to the money that they bring in due to prostitution being illegal.

Pimps are a thing in some legal forms of sex work too, especially stripping.

[Cordel One]

And your opinion matters why? You're not gonna gain anything by crminalizing prostitution, you're just making it a lot more dangerous for those involved.

Not prostitutes, I have zero tolerance for pimps.

Which is exactly why we should legalize prostitution and protect sex workers.

[Sundiata]

Not prostitutes, I have zero tolerance for pimps.

Which is exactly why we should legalize prostitution and protect sex workers.

We need to criminalize purchasing sex and protect sex-workers under legal provisions reserved for human trafficking.

[Necroghastia]

Which is exactly why we should legalize prostitution and protect sex workers.

We need to criminalize purchasing sex and protect sex-workers under legal provisions reserved for human trafficking.

that's the exact opposite of protecting sex workers

[Saiwania]

Not prostitutes, I have zero tolerance for pimps.

Pimps exist to begin with, because it is sometimes the case that customers of sex decide to try harming the sex worker or otherwise skip out on paying for any services rendered that they previously agreed to.

Some prostitutes can't handle the dangers sometimes inherent to the job on their own, which is why they need extra help/security to begin with, but a bouncer or its equivalent needs to get paid as well, the person can't just do that for free if they're taking time out of their day and risking themselves to ensure the sex worker stays safe.

There are predatory pimps that take too much of a cut from any profits or treats the sex worker like a slave, but point is it isn't all of them. Some are just providing a valid service from their perspective that they're voluntarily being paid for. Not getting 100% of the profits is usually just how it is if you aren't directly handling everything yourself in being your own boss/freelancer.

Any prostitutes that work for a brothel would have similar problems, just different context. The brothel would still wind up getting a chunk of any income they earn if they're apart of one. The idea is without a brothel, they won't have access to the clientele a brothel can bring to them in terms of business and won't have the security that being in its premises can offer.

[Kowani]

Ok everyone, whats your top 3 most iconic women of gaming? GO!

1. Lara Croft
2. Chun "I top-tiered 3rd strike" Li
3. Tifa Lockhart

1: Samus Aran
2: May (Pokemon)
3: Cortana

[Northern Socialist Council Republics]

-snip-

Will nobody think of the GLaDOS?

[Kowani]

-snip-

Will nobody think of the GLaDOS?

i actually first thought of the Lotus, but then i remembered Warframe isn't a cultural marker ;_;

[New haven america]

Will nobody think of the GLaDOS?

i actually first thought of the Lotus, but then i remembered Warframe isn't a cultural marker ;_;

She's still not forgiven.