The NationStates Feminism Thread IV: Fight Like A Girl!

[New haven america]

you realize actual historical family planning involved abortions and lots of death in childbirth
sure, we've partially alleviated the latter, but it still happens, especially in the global south where contraceptives aren't readily available and health conditions are...generally speaking, poor

That I do realize.

Hey Sun, care to answer this anytime soon?

That's interesting to note.

Another fun fact: Most of the OT's attitudes towards sex was based on desert and population survival, as were most things in the OT/Torah in general.

So can you please tell me where does most of humanity live and how big is the human population?

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

People enjoy what pregnancy makes. Not the process of being pregnant.

Pregnancy kinks/fetishes are actually a thing.

Yes, I have one.
Outliers are outliers.
Most of us keep the kink to fantasy until we want a child and not just pregnancy.

[Sundiata]

People DO enjoy sex, and some people DO enjoy being pregnant (even with the side-effects).

People enjoy what pregnancy makes. Not the process of being pregnant.

I can't personally attest to this so maybe we could find a poll or something. There's bound to be women who enjoy pregnancy, not that this is the point.

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

People enjoy what pregnancy makes. Not the process of being pregnant.

I can't personally attest to this so maybe we could find a poll or something. There's bound to be women who enjoy pregnancy, not that this is the point.

"if you didn't get a baby out of pregnancy, would you want to be pregnant?"

IM GONNA GUESS the answer is a solid fucking no. Pregnancy isn't fun.

[Sundiata]

[
Hey Sun, care to answer this anytime soon?

Sure, but please note that I am not best authority on this topic. My best recommendation on this is JP II's "The Theology of The Body."

Another fun fact: Most of the OT's attitudes towards sex was based on desert and population survival, as were most things in the OT/Torah in general.

So can you please tell me where does most of humanity live and how big is the human population?

The moral law written in the Old Testament is still valid and most of the world's people live in cities. Our overall human population is at about 8 billion people.

[Sundiata]

I can't personally attest to this so maybe we could find a poll or something. There's bound to be women who enjoy pregnancy, not that this is the point.

"if you didn't get a baby out of pregnancy, would you want to be pregnant?"

IM GONNA GUESS the answer is a solid fucking no. Pregnancy isn't fun.

Ok, if you're angry or offended by our disagreements, I understand. We're discussing subject matter that's heavily contentious. While we are arguing, I don't want to engage in an angry dialogue or argument for it's own sake. Is there anything I can do or say to calm things down?

I am sincerely not trying to hurt your feelings here. I'm not trying to choose your feelings for you either. I am sincerely trying to have a constructive dialogue without presuming the worst of each other's intentions or miscommunicate.

[New haven america]

[
Hey Sun, care to answer this anytime soon?

Sure, but please note that I am not best authority on this topic. My best recommendation on this is JP II's "The Theology of The Body."

Another fun fact: Most of the OT's attitudes towards sex was based on desert and population survival, as were most things in the OT/Torah in general.

So can you please tell me where does most of humanity live and how big is the human population?

The moral law written in the Old Testament is still valid and most of the world's people live in cities. Our overall human population is at about 8 billion people.

Why are desert survival tips moral law and why do they apply to a population of 8 billion, the vast majority of whom don't live in the desert?

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

"if you didn't get a baby out of pregnancy, would you want to be pregnant?"

IM GONNA GUESS the answer is a solid fucking no. Pregnancy isn't fun.

Ok, if you're angry or offended by our disagreements, I understand. We're discussing subject matter that's heavily contentious. While we are arguing, I don't want to engage an angry dialogue or argument for it's own sake. Is there anything I can do or say to calm things down?

I am sincerely not trying to hurt your feelings here. I'm not trying to choose your feelings for you either. I am sincerely trying to have a constructive dialogue without presuming the worst of each other's intentions or miscommunicate.

I mean what you can do to help me and the entire rest of the world is worry about your genitals and let everyone else worry about their own.

[Thepeopl]

I can't personally attest to this so maybe we could find a poll or something. There's bound to be women who enjoy pregnancy, not that this is the point.

"if you didn't get a baby out of pregnancy, would you want to be pregnant?"

IM GONNA GUESS the answer is a solid fucking no. Pregnancy isn't fun.

If I had pregnancy symptoms without having a fetus growing inside, I think I would be miserable and going insane... the inconveniences are only tolerable because there's a embryo developing.
Tho, second trimester is fun. High libido. The junior is kicking thus mommy can't sleep (unborns wake up when mummy sits down or lies down because the motion which rocks them to sleep, stops.)
So you needs to have sex to get the little one asleep, so you can sleep as well.
But even if you don't want to get the baby sleeping, the increased blood flow to the genitalia, will increase pleasure in sex and the sex drive.
Third trimester is (for me) fun till week 36. After that, breathing is difficult, needing to pee every 5 minutes is getting old, retaining fluids is inconvenient even pregnancy clothes are getting tight... my shoes don't fit. Breasts start leaking, bed just isn't comfortable anymore. All pillows needed to get into a position that will allow you to sleep, only to wake up again to pee and to rearrange the pillows again... nope. No fun.

[Luminesa]

"if you didn't get a baby out of pregnancy, would you want to be pregnant?"

IM GONNA GUESS the answer is a solid fucking no. Pregnancy isn't fun.

If I had pregnancy symptoms without having a fetus growing inside, I think I would be miserable and going insane... the inconveniences are only tolerable because there's a embryo developing.
Tho, second trimester is fun. High libido. The junior is kicking thus mommy can't sleep (unborns wake up when mummy sits down or lies down because the motion which rocks them to sleep, stops.)
So you needs to have sex to get the little one asleep, so you can sleep as well.
But even if you don't want to get the baby sleeping, the increased blood flow to the genitalia, will increase pleasure in sex and the sex drive.
Third trimester is (for me) fun till week 36. After that, breathing is difficult, needing to pee every 5 minutes is getting old, retaining fluids is inconvenient even pregnancy clothes are getting tight... my shoes don't fit. Breasts start leaking, bed just isn't comfortable anymore. All pillows needed to get into a position that will allow you to sleep, only to wake up again to pee and to rearrange the pillows again... nope. No fun.

I hope I don’t sound like an idiot for asking, but...do ALL girls get a high libido when they’re pregnant? I uhhhh...have never been pregnant, hence why I am asking. I don’t remember this part of my health class.

[Luminesa]

People DO enjoy sex, and some people DO enjoy being pregnant (even with the side-effects).

People enjoy what pregnancy makes. Not the process of being pregnant.

Having watched some of Doctor Mother Jones’s channel (she is an OB/GYN and I like her content), based on a little of what I’ve garnered, some people still like being pregnant, some people are miserable. It depends from person-to-person. But yes, babies do make people excited, usually. Unless they have post-partum depression, which is devastating to the new mother and new baby. People’s bodies are strange once hormones get involved.

[Thepeopl]

If I had pregnancy symptoms without having a fetus growing inside, I think I would be miserable and going insane... the inconveniences are only tolerable because there's a embryo developing.
Tho, second trimester is fun. High libido. The junior is kicking thus mommy can't sleep (unborns wake up when mummy sits down or lies down because the motion which rocks them to sleep, stops.)
So you needs to have sex to get the little one asleep, so you can sleep as well.
But even if you don't want to get the baby sleeping, the increased blood flow to the genitalia, will increase pleasure in sex and the sex drive.
Third trimester is (for me) fun till week 36. After that, breathing is difficult, needing to pee every 5 minutes is getting old, retaining fluids is inconvenient even pregnancy clothes are getting tight... my shoes don't fit. Breasts start leaking, bed just isn't comfortable anymore. All pillows needed to get into a position that will allow you to sleep, only to wake up again to pee and to rearrange the pillows again... nope. No fun.

I hope I don’t sound like an idiot for asking, but...do ALL girls get a high libido when they’re pregnant? I uhhhh...have never been pregnant, hence why I am asking. I don’t remember this part of my health class.

https://www.healthline.com/health/pregn ... ood%20flow.

Not all girls, but many...

Asking questions is never dumb.
I didn't learn this fact until I became pregnant, because sex ed sort of skips it I guess.

[Cordel One]

"if you didn't get a baby out of pregnancy, would you want to be pregnant?"

IM GONNA GUESS the answer is a solid fucking no. Pregnancy isn't fun.

If I had pregnancy symptoms without having a fetus growing inside, I think I would be miserable and going insane... the inconveniences are only tolerable because there's a embryo developing.
Tho, second trimester is fun. High libido. The junior is kicking thus mommy can't sleep (unborns wake up when mummy sits down or lies down because the motion which rocks them to sleep, stops.)
So you needs to have sex to get the little one asleep, so you can sleep as well.
But even if you don't want to get the baby sleeping, the increased blood flow to the genitalia, will increase pleasure in sex and the sex drive.
Third trimester is (for me) fun till week 36. After that, breathing is difficult, needing to pee every 5 minutes is getting old, retaining fluids is inconvenient even pregnancy clothes are getting tight... my shoes don't fit. Breasts start leaking, bed just isn't comfortable anymore. All pillows needed to get into a position that will allow you to sleep, only to wake up again to pee and to rearrange the pillows again... nope. No fun.

Everything I hear about pregancy sounds so uncomfortable.

[Nevertopia]

I remember when this happened. The excuses just kept piling on from the pro-life crowd, all basically boiling down to, "Well, just because I believe someone should take care of it doesn't mean that I should have to!" Oh, so it's okay for you to tell someone else to shut up and deal with it, but not for you to take a taste of your own medicine?

Which reveals their fundamental problem: Most pro-lifers (though to be fair, not all) want all the sentimentalism of feeling like they're "saving babies" but they don't want to have to actually think about or deal with the material consequences of childbirth, which they assume will always fall on someone else.

well said. Theres more to having a child than giving birth. If you can't provide or are simply not ready the ethical answer is to terminate a pregnancy before you essentially curse a new human being for being alive. Anti-Abortionists may argue the problem is that there should be more and better support for unwanted children instead of ending an unwanted pregnancy, but even if such a scenario was realistic there's still the issue that maybe a woman or girl may not want to be giving birth in the first place. Pro-Life is really Pro-Birth. Once an unwanted pregnancy is forced to term, their camp is silent on how to sufficiently care for this new human being outside of "durr just make society perfect." Life doesn't work like that. Forcing an unwanted pregnancy to term is one of the greatest evils in modern society. Thats why I love this screenshot so much, it shows the total lack of self awareness and hypocrisy of pro-birthers. "YAY the fetus grew into a real child! Welp, its your problem now!"

[Fahran]

https://www.healthline.com/health/pregnancy/sex-drive#:~:text=Many%20women%20experience%20an%20increased,to%20extra%20genital%20blood%20flow.

Not all girls, but many...

Asking questions is never dumb.
I didn't learn this fact until I became pregnant, because sex ed sort of skips it I guess.

I read and heard about this once I got to university, but they never talked to us about it in high school. Which, honestly, does make a modicum of sense given the curricula, the audience, and how niche the topic is in the context.

[Fahran]

People enjoy what pregnancy makes. Not the process of being pregnant.

Pregnancy kinks/fetishes are actually a thing.

We went from "some people are into abortion" to "some people are into being preggers" with... you know what? Never mind. This is the new normal.

[Fahran]

Another fun fact: Most of the OT's attitudes towards sex was based on desert and population survival, as were most things in the OT/Torah in general.

So can you please tell me where does most of humanity live and how big is the human population?

Judaism actually has an interesting and nuanced relationship with sexuality and contraception depending on the rabbi and the source in question. I would cite sources but even the authoritative ones get a little racy on descriptions so it's probably best to not do that.

[Kowani]

Pregnancy kinks/fetishes are actually a thing.

We went from "some people are into abortion" to "some people are into being preggers" with... you know what? Never mind. This is the new normal.

would you prefer it how it normally is?

[Odreria]

Sex is naturally pleasurable. Pregnancy is naturally NOT pleasurable and often dangerous. It is natural to want to control ones reproduction, as people have been doing for literal millennia.

People DO enjoy sex, and some people DO enjoy being pregnant (even with the side-effects).

well I'm not one of them

[Fahran]

well I'm not one of them

You've been pregnant?

[Sundiata]

Ok, if you're angry or offended by our disagreements, I understand. We're discussing subject matter that's heavily contentious. While we are arguing, I don't want to engage an angry dialogue or argument for it's own sake. Is there anything I can do or say to calm things down?

I am sincerely not trying to hurt your feelings here. I'm not trying to choose your feelings for you either. I am sincerely trying to have a constructive dialogue without presuming the worst of each other's intentions or miscommunicate.

I mean what you can do to help me and the entire rest of the world is worry about your genitals and let everyone else worry about their own.

That's a disproportionate talking point.

[Kowani]

I mean what you can do to help me and the entire rest of the world is worry about your genitals and let everyone else worry about their own.

That's a disproportionate talking point.

how tf is a talking point disproportionate

[Esheaun Stroakuss]

Abortion is up to the individual woman and her circumstance.

[Giovenith]

Another fun fact: Most of the OT's attitudes towards sex was based on desert and population survival, as were most things in the OT/Torah in general.

So can you please tell me where does most of humanity live and how big is the human population?

Judaism actually has an interesting and nuanced relationship with sexuality and contraception depending on the rabbi and the source in question. I would cite sources but even the authoritative ones get a little racy on descriptions so it's probably best to not do that.

As I understand it, Judaism traditionally only considers the unborn to be an extension of the mother (equivalent to a thigh) until they take their first breath, right?


That kind of brings up the interesting point of how any anti-abortion stance is one that can only really stand in a relatively safe, privileged society. Despite pro-lifers' religious bent, there is very little against abortion in the Abrahamic texts at all since being against abortion during that time period would have been horribly impractical; childbirth was significantly more dangerous and populations were so low that you couldn't afford to lose one of your fertile women, and resources were so scarce that genuine infanticide wasn't uncommon — abortion would have seemed much more humane in comparison. Babies were easy to make and had more input than output, a successfully matured woman was a lot harder to come by and produced more value to the tribe, so choosing to err on the side of preserving her over a fetus would have been a "no duh" decision.

That obviously isn't to say that our current positions should be dictated by the material conditions of the past. But at least as far as the religious angle is concerned, it goes to show that an anti-abortion stance has far more to do with the opinions of modern human individuals than it does religious texts or God.

[Labbos]

That kind of brings up the interesting point of how any anti-abortion stance is one that can only really stand in a relatively safe, privileged society. Despite pro-lifers' religious bent, there is very little against abortion in the Abrahamic texts at all since being against abortion during that time period would have been horribly impractical; childbirth was significantly more dangerous and populations were so low that you couldn't afford to lose one of your fertile women, and resources were so scarce that genuine infanticide wasn't uncommon — abortion would have seemed much more humane in comparison. Babies were easy to make and had more input than output, a successfully matured woman was a lot harder to come by and produced more value to the tribe, so choosing to err on the side of preserving her over a fetus would have been a "no duh" decision.

So populations couldn't afford to lose one fertile woman, presumably because they were the only ones who could give birth, but on the other hand there were so many women having babies that they had to resort to infanticide? And aborting babies to save the lives of fertile women was a good policy, even though the only reason that fertile women were so valuable was that they would give birth?

I really don't understand your argument. I don't disagree with it; I don't understand it.