The NationStates Feminism Thread IV: Fight Like A Girl!

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

But it is true. This data set shows that higher access to birth control and contraceptive means lower rates of abortion.

It's a no brainer to me, especially as a sex positive feminist.

So let's tackle this topic because you're missing the point a little bit.

Why must sexual actions and intercourse must be open to the creation of human life? It all goes back to what I was saying before about essence and being. Eassence: what a thing is, it's nature. How do we discover that? By identifying what it is for. For example, a bed is to rest in. Things that we rest in therefore, have the nature of a bed. Things we rest our heads upon, the nature of a pillow. So on, so forth.

While we can rest our heads upon pillows and rest upon beds, we can also use these things for our own self interested purposes. You could rest your head upon a bed or maybe rest your body upon a pillow or series of pillows. Now, that doesn't try to make a pillow a bed or a bed a pillow. We're clearly not using these items for what they are. We're still not violating what the a pillow is or a bed is, just using it for a different purpose.

Now, let's take a step back and talk about sex. What is sex? What is sex for? The nature of sex is for procreation and uniting the couple. Pertaining to the couple uniting, the body releases chemicals during sex that are bonding hormones. They're meant to build affection and oriented towards procreation. Sex is the single human act that ends in or can end in conception, which is where life begins as we established before. Unity and procreation.

Now, the nature of sex is unity in procreation. That doesn't mean that we can't use it for more self-interested purposes. For example, a husband and wife who want to procreate who decide to have sex to create a life. Or for example, a couple who decide to have sex to experience the unity of sex moreso for that purpose than creating a life.These two things are permissible because we're not working against the nature of sex in either of the two instances.

Back to our pillow and bed example. If you're using the pillow to as a cup holder, for example that would violate the nature of the pillow. There's some things that we can do that don't violate the nature of pillows, beds, sex, but there's some things we do that can. Contraception works against the nature of sex, conception. It's contra-ception, right? It's not just having sex and not getting pregnant. It's violating the nature of sex. We can't work against conception without violating what sex is for.

Sources:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/your-neurochemical-self/201802/the-neurochemistry-love

https://faculty.fordham.edu/klima/Blackwell-proofs/MP_C30.pdf

things can be used for multiple purposes. that doesn't "violate it's nature."

[New haven america]

odd
sex with a contraceptive also brings unity and triggers happy neurochemistry
so what exactly is the problem?

Violating the procreative aspect of sex that is also essential to its nature.

Fun fact: Contraceptives have existed at least since Mesopotamia and Ancient Egypt.

Contraceptives might even be older than humanity society. (There are several plants in North America that the Natives used for their contraceptive properties before Western Contact, for example)

[Sundiata]

So let's tackle this topic because you're missing the point a little bit.

Why must sexual actions and intercourse must be open to the creation of human life? It all goes back to what I was saying before about essence and being. Eassence: what a thing is, it's nature. How do we discover that? By identifying what it is for. For example, a bed is to rest in. Things that we rest in therefore, have the nature of a bed. Things we rest our heads upon, the nature of a pillow. So on, so forth.

While we can rest our heads upon pillows and rest upon beds, we can also use these things for our own self interested purposes. You could rest your head upon a bed or maybe rest your body upon a pillow or series of pillows. Now, that doesn't try to make a pillow a bed or a bed a pillow. We're clearly not using these items for what they are. We're still not violating what the a pillow is or a bed is, just using it for a different purpose.

Now, let's take a step back and talk about sex. What is sex? What is sex for? The nature of sex is for procreation and uniting the couple. Pertaining to the couple uniting, the body releases chemicals during sex that are bonding hormones. They're meant to build affection and oriented towards procreation. Sex is the single human act that ends in or can end in conception, which is where life begins as we established before. Unity and procreation.

Now, the nature of sex is unity in procreation. That doesn't mean that we can't use it for more self-interested purposes. For example, a husband and wife who want to procreate who decide to have sex to create a life. Or for example, a couple who decide to have sex to experience the unity of sex moreso for that purpose than creating a life.These two things are permissible because we're not working against the nature of sex in either of the two instances.

Back to our pillow and bed example. If you're using the pillow to as a cup holder, for example that would violate the nature of the pillow. There's some things that we can do that don't violate the nature of pillows, beds, sex, but there's some things we do that can. Contraception works against the nature of sex, conception. It's contra-ception, right? It's not just having sex and not getting pregnant. It's violating the nature of sex. We can't work against conception without violating what sex is for.

Sources:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/your-neurochemical-self/201802/the-neurochemistry-love

https://faculty.fordham.edu/klima/Blackwell-proofs/MP_C30.pdf

things can be used for multiple purposes. that doesn't "violate it's nature."

Sure, things can have multiple purposes within the domain of their nature.

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

Violating the procreative aspect of sex that is also essential to its nature.

Fun fact: Contraceptives have existed since Mesopotamia and Ancient Egypt.

Contraceptives might even be older than humanity society.

There are a number of animals who have sex for pleasure. and a number of animals that can choose to abort pregnancies if the circumstances are not right.

[Kowani]

but so is a couple which is having sex for the unity aspect
and you said that was okay


this entire argument is bullshit anyway, but it's not even internally coherent bullshit

Having sex for unity without contracepting. The couple is having sex more for unity than procreation, they're not intentionally violating the procreative nature of sex.

and now we're back to nonsense

[Sundiata]

Violating the procreative aspect of sex that is also essential to its nature.

Fun fact: Contraceptives have existed at least since Mesopotamia and Ancient Egypt.

Contraceptives might even be older than humanity society. (There are several plants in North America that the Natives used for their contraceptive properties before Western Contact, for example)

That's interesting to note.

[Sundiata]

Having sex for unity without contracepting. The couple is having sex more for unity than procreation, they're not intentionally violating the procreative nature of sex.

and now we're back to nonsense

Ok.

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

things can be used for multiple purposes. that doesn't "violate it's nature."

Sure, things can have multiple purposes within the domain of their nature.

Sex is naturally pleasurable. Pregnancy is naturally NOT pleasurable and often dangerous. It is natural to want to control ones reproduction, as people have been doing for literal millennia.

[Sundiata]

Sure, things can have multiple purposes within the domain of their nature.

Sex is naturally pleasurable. Pregnancy is naturally NOT pleasurable and often dangerous. It is natural to want to control ones reproduction, as people have been doing for literal millennia.

Pregnancies can be planned and spaced out without violating the purposes of sex. Natural family planning for example, is open to life. It likewise, is an ancient practice.

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

Sex is naturally pleasurable. Pregnancy is naturally NOT pleasurable and often dangerous. It is natural to want to control ones reproduction, as people have been doing for literal millennia.

Pregnancies can be planned and spaced out without violating the purposes of sex. Natural family planning for example, is open to life. It likewise, is an ancient practice.

It is likewise, only a viable option for people who have no hormonal problems and ovulate on a regular schedule. People like me cannot do "natural family planning" because ovulation is not on a set schedule and we may ovulate more than once per cycle or not at all per cycle. And that's not rare. 10% of people with a uterus have my condition. A large number have other conditions that affect ovulation.

But also, if you think that family planning is fine if you do one way, what the fuck is the problem with doing it another way?

[Sundiata]

Pregnancies can be planned and spaced out without violating the purposes of sex. Natural family planning for example, is open to life. It likewise, is an ancient practice.

It is likewise, only a viable option for people who have no hormonal problems and ovulate on a regular schedule. People like me cannot do "natural family planning" because ovulation is not on a set schedule and we may ovulate more than once per cycle or not at all per cycle. And that's not rare. 10% of people with a uterus have my condition. A large number have other conditions that affect ovulation.

But also, if you think that family planning is fine if you do one way, what the fuck is the problem with doing it another way?

Another way? NFP is open to life and doesn't intend to eliminate the possibility of procreation. Contraception is not.

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

It is likewise, only a viable option for people who have no hormonal problems and ovulate on a regular schedule. People like me cannot do "natural family planning" because ovulation is not on a set schedule and we may ovulate more than once per cycle or not at all per cycle. And that's not rare. 10% of people with a uterus have my condition. A large number have other conditions that affect ovulation.

But also, if you think that family planning is fine if you do one way, what the fuck is the problem with doing it another way?

Another way?

You think its perfectly fine to purposefully have sex in a way that doesn't produce children by entirely avoiding predicted ovulation times, but think it's a "violation of sexual nature" or whatever to purposefully have sex in a way that doesn't produce children in any other way.

[Kowani]

Sex is naturally pleasurable. Pregnancy is naturally NOT pleasurable and often dangerous. It is natural to want to control ones reproduction, as people have been doing for literal millennia.

Pregnancies can be planned and spaced out without violating the purposes of sex. Natural family planning for example, is open to life. It likewise, is an ancient practice.

you realize actual historical family planning involved abortions and lots of death in childbirth
sure, we've partially alleviated the latter, but it still happens, especially in the global south where contraceptives aren't readily available and health conditions are...generally speaking, poor

[Sanghyeok]

Sex is naturally pleasurable. Pregnancy is naturally NOT pleasurable and often dangerous. It is natural to want to control ones reproduction, as people have been doing for literal millennia.

Pregnancies can be planned and spaced out without violating the purposes of sex. Natural family planning for example, is open to life. It likewise, is an ancient practice.

To me, it still sounds like you're arguing sex is only for the purposes of pregnancy and family creation.

[New haven america]

Fun fact: Contraceptives have existed at least since Mesopotamia and Ancient Egypt.

Contraceptives might even be older than humanity society. (There are several plants in North America that the Natives used for their contraceptive properties before Western Contact, for example)

That's interesting to note.

Another fun fact: Most of the OT's attitudes towards sex was based on desert and population survival, as were most things in the OT/Torah in general.

So can you please tell me where does most of humanity live and how big is the human population?

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

Pregnancies can be planned and spaced out without violating the purposes of sex. Natural family planning for example, is open to life. It likewise, is an ancient practice.

To me, it still sounds like you're arguing sex is only for the purposes of pregnancy and family creation.

Yep. Fuck all the people that would die or experience debilitating heath complications in pregnancy, can't afford to have children, are in abusive relationships, etc. They should all just suffer and die because Sundiata says condoms and contraceptives are icky.

[New haven america]

Pregnancies can be planned and spaced out without violating the purposes of sex. Natural family planning for example, is open to life. It likewise, is an ancient practice.

To me, it still sounds like you're arguing sex is only for the purposes of pregnancy and family creation.

That is what a lot of conservative Christians believe, yes. There's a reason why jokes such as magic underwear and the sheet with a hole in it exist.

Ironically, Christianity actually says that if your partner isn't sexually satisfying you, that is absolutely grounds for divorce. (Also something a lot of conservative Christians tend to forget)

[Sundiata]

Another way?

You think its perfectly fine to purposefully have sex in a way that doesn't produce children by entirely avoiding predicted ovulation times, but think it's a "violation of sexual nature" or whatever to purposefully have sex in a way that doesn't produce children in any other way.

No, no.

NFP is completely open to life and doesn't intend to eliminate the possibility of procreation or block fertility. While it can be used to achieve pregnancy it also can be used to avoid it. Both purposes, unlike contraception.

[Sundiata]

Pregnancies can be planned and spaced out without violating the purposes of sex. Natural family planning for example, is open to life. It likewise, is an ancient practice.

To me, it still sounds like you're arguing sex is only for the purposes of pregnancy and family creation.

No, I said that's one purpose of sex in my initial response.

[Luminesa]

Sure, things can have multiple purposes within the domain of their nature.

Sex is naturally pleasurable. Pregnancy is naturally NOT pleasurable and often dangerous. It is natural to want to control ones reproduction, as people have been doing for literal millennia.

People DO enjoy sex, and some people DO enjoy being pregnant (even with the side-effects).

[Sundiata]

Pregnancies can be planned and spaced out without violating the purposes of sex. Natural family planning for example, is open to life. It likewise, is an ancient practice.

you realize actual historical family planning involved abortions and lots of death in childbirth
sure, we've partially alleviated the latter, but it still happens, especially in the global south where contraceptives aren't readily available and health conditions are...generally speaking, poor

That I do realize.

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

To me, it still sounds like you're arguing sex is only for the purposes of pregnancy and family creation.

That is what a lot of conservative Christians believe, yes. There's a reason why jokes such as magic underwear and the sheet with a hole in it exist.

Ironically, Christianity actually says that if your partner isn't sexually satisfying you, that is absolutely grounds for divorce. (Also something a lot of conservative Christians tend to forget)

Interpretations of Islam, too. There are many scholars who agree that sex is for mutual pleasure, and that is why we have sex drives and receive pleasure from sex. Part of your marital duties are to provide sexual pleasure to your partner whenever you are both capable. And if there are reasons to not have children, then contracepting (typically as pulling out during that area and time period) was seen as perfectly acceptable.

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

Sex is naturally pleasurable. Pregnancy is naturally NOT pleasurable and often dangerous. It is natural to want to control ones reproduction, as people have been doing for literal millennia.

People DO enjoy sex, and some people DO enjoy being pregnant (even with the side-effects).

People enjoy what pregnancy makes. Not the process of being pregnant.

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

You think its perfectly fine to purposefully have sex in a way that doesn't produce children by entirely avoiding predicted ovulation times, but think it's a "violation of sexual nature" or whatever to purposefully have sex in a way that doesn't produce children in any other way.

No, no.

NFP is completely open to life and doesn't intend to eliminate the possibility of procreation or block fertility. While it can be used to achieve pregnancy it also can be used to avoid it. Both purposes, unlike contraception.

So you agree that NFP has a high rate of failure.
Also I literally have to be on birth control now, so that I can get pregnant later.

[New haven america]

People DO enjoy sex, and some people DO enjoy being pregnant (even with the side-effects).

People enjoy what pregnancy makes. Not the process of being pregnant.

Pregnancy kinks/fetishes are actually a thing.