The NationStates Feminism Thread IV: Fight Like A Girl!

[Des-Bal]

right, but you're just asking someone to stand by your values, principles, and beliefs in lieu of you rn lol

Explain. I am for the record calling you a liar.

[Sundiata]

I really don't think so. Not legally.

But please, explain why you believe that. For the record: I am not calling you a misogynist.

Legal depends on where you're talking about but the privilege we're talking about are broader than that. If a child is victimized by a teacher the outcry is consistently dependent on the sex of the parties involved. Further fe,inists have stood in opposition to recognizing that it is rape to fuck a man against his will if you are a woman, theyve done it in terms of both reporting statistics and lobbying to change or prevent the changing of laws.

Well, I see what you're saying but I still am not seeing evidence of oppression or a systemic assault on men's rights. Rape has a specific definition depending upon the jurisdiction. It isn't necessarily the same thing as sexual assault. Or even sexual battery, for instance, which can happen regardless of the nature of the persons involved.

Sexual assault, sexual battery, and rape aren't always necessarily the same things as a matter of jurisprudence. I also think you'll be hard pressed to find a feminist who isn't prepared to say that these these crimes are wrong.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

I'm probably the most pro-feminist dude here, which is why I refuse to call myself one because the modern feminist movement is legitimately disgusting in its behavior and beliefs.

I don't think Cek is representative of all feminists. Modern third wave feminism has a lot of issues to be sure, but it's not really disgustingly immoral. TERFs and SWERFs excluded, modern feminism's main problems are in its analysis of "what is," not its goals of "what ought."

[Cekoviu]

or, should stand for at least
point is, don't say his name, especially not 3 times in front of a mirror

So, what "you know who" thinks feminism is, is what you wish feminism were?

more or less

i dont like men so i like it when other people dont like men
i dont think i can elaborate any further than that, it's really that simple

Charming.

thanks! <3

i havent familiarized myself enough with your views to see whether you're misogynistic or not, so pass
i think gallo's got some stuff, but he admittedly staves it off better than most

My views are liberalism with a hint of libertarianism.

ok yuck, bad start

As for gender, my beliefs are that everyone should be able to pursue their passions and dreams, regardless of gender. That both men and women should be free to be as "masculine" or "feminine" as they like, and misogyny and misandry should be rebuked with equal fervour. There are some toxic expectations placed on men, "toxic masculinity" if you like, which drive men to harm themselves and others. But their are also toxic expectations placed on women which drive women to harm themselves and others. These toxic belief systems are both reienforced by some men, and some women.

this is all true except for the part about misandry should be rebuked, so that's good

I would call myself both an MRA and a feminist. Though, a liberal moderate feminist.

ok ew u ruined it

[Des-Bal]

i mean, if someone wanted they could probably cherrypick a number of occasional jokes and random opinions that'd support that, so one might be able to compile a decent set of evidence. doesn't really help ur case

My case is that there is no more evidence Im a misogynist tham their is that you're a nazi. I say that assuming you arent a nazi. The best way to hamstring my argument would be for you to be a nazi.

[New haven america]

No no, they're the same.

Sure, their targets might be different (Might be in the loosest possible term), but their behavior's the same and they're more often than not comorbid with each other.

ok sure, this point is pretty blatantly obvious and i'm not going to try to argue it (still doesn't make them the same, just as cycads and palms looking similar doesn't mean they're sister species). my question is who cares?

I just find it odd that you unironically part of a group that happily allies and works with a group that doesn't think people like you should exist.

But that can't be feminism's fault, it must be the fault of the patriarchy for coming up with the male/female divide.

You see why ideas like this are, idk, bad? Or unhelpful in the grand scheme of things?

[Cekoviu]

right, but you're just asking someone to stand by your values, principles, and beliefs in lieu of you rn lol

Explain. I am for the record calling you a liar.

u literally just told sundiata to repeat exactly what you were saying word-for-word rather than requesting that he, y'know, debate
and no, i am not a lair, no dragons have ever nested in me

[Des-Bal]

Well, I see what you're saying but I still am not seeing evidence of oppression or a systemic assault on men's rights. Rape has a specific definition depending upon the jurisdiction. It isn't necessarily the same thing as sexual assault. Or even sexual battery, for instance, which can happen regardless of the nature of the person's involved.

Sexual assault, sexual battery, and rape aren't always necessarily the same things as a matter of jurisprudence. I also think you'll be hard pressed to find a feminist who isn't prepared to say that these these crimes are wrong.

There certainly are different definitions. Where they impact women there is outcry.are you suggesting it would be difficult to find a feminist who says women victimizing men is different and less serious than victimizing a woman?

[Cekoviu]

ok sure, this point is pretty blatantly obvious and i'm not going to try to argue it (still doesn't make them the same, just as cycads and palms looking similar doesn't mean they're sister species). my question is who cares?

I just find it odd that you unironically part of a group that happily allies and works with a group that doesn't think people like you should exist.

But that can't be feminism's fault, it must be the fault of the patriarchy for coming up with the male/female divide.

You see why ideas like this are, idk, bad? Or unhelpful in the grand scheme of things?

i'm not a sex worker bruv

when have i ever said the patriarchy came up with the distinction between male and female, for the record i am not a moron and i do think that's a legitimate biological distinction (distinct from the associated gender roles obv)

nope

[Cekoviu]

^ correction to the above: i am a moron, just not on the topic of sex and gender, which i have fairly intimately familiarized myself with

[Des-Bal]

u literally just told sundiata to repeat exactly what you were saying word-for-word rather than requesting that he, y'know, debate
and no, i am not a lair, no dragons have ever nested in me

Those words were not my position they were in fact the antithesis of my position and manifestly untrue.

[Cekoviu]

u literally just told sundiata to repeat exactly what you were saying word-for-word rather than requesting that he, y'know, debate
and no, i am not a lair, no dragons have ever nested in me

Those words were not my position they were in fact the antithesis of my position and manifestly untrue.

ok i'll take your word for it because it has been a long day and it is very much possible that i misread it

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

ok yuck, bad start

Ah yes, liberty, equality and fraternity. The three elements of disgusting misogyny.

this is all true except for the part about misandry should be rebuked, so that's good

So if you think that is all true (sans misandry being bad), then do you agree that both toxic expectations on men, and toxic expectations on women, are each enforced by both women and men?

If so, then wouldn't it stand to reason that blaming one gender for this state of affairs is counterproductive and wrong?

If so then, why the misandry? I'm going to be honest, it doesn't seem like you have a rational basis for it.

ok ew u ruined it

I make no apology for equality.

[Sundiata]

Well, I see what you're saying but I still am not seeing evidence of oppression or a systemic assault on men's rights. Rape has a specific definition depending upon the jurisdiction. It isn't necessarily the same thing as sexual assault. Or even sexual battery, for instance, which can happen regardless of the nature of the person's involved.

Sexual assault, sexual battery, and rape aren't always necessarily the same things as a matter of jurisprudence. I also think you'll be hard pressed to find a feminist who isn't prepared to say that these these crimes are wrong.

There certainly are different definitions. Where they impact women there is outcry.are you suggesting it would be difficult to find a feminist who says women victimizing men is different and less serious than victimizing a woman?

Yes, no feminist of serious academic or legal note believes that.

[Cekoviu]

ok yuck, bad start

Ah yes, liberty, equality and fraternity. The three elements of disgusting misogyny.

well not necessarily misogyny but just disgusting in general sure

this is all true except for the part about misandry should be rebuked, so that's good

So if you think that is all true (sans misandry being bad), then do you agree that both toxic expectations on men, and toxic expectations on women, are each enforced by both women and men?

If so, then wouldn't it stand to reason that blaming one gender for this state of affairs is counterproductive and wrong?

see the thing is that men do it a lot more than women and they're the ones who originally started it, plus their toxicity is much more toxic to others whereas toxic femininity is more quietly self-destructive

If so then, why the misandry? I'm going to be honest, it doesn't seem like you have a rational basis for it.

i don't really, i'm not hiding that. but fundamentally, reason is subject to the passions, i'm merely cutting out the middleman :)

[Des-Bal]

Yes, no feminist of serious academic or legal note believes that.

Mary Koss.

[New haven america]

I just find it odd that you unironically part of a group that happily allies and works with a group that doesn't think people like you should exist.

But that can't be feminism's fault, it must be the fault of the patriarchy for coming up with the male/female divide.

You see why ideas like this are, idk, bad? Or unhelpful in the grand scheme of things?

i'm not a sex worker bruv

when have i ever said the patriarchy came up with the distinction between male and female, for the record i am not a moron and i do think that's a legitimate biological distinction (distinct from the associated gender roles obv)

nope

And yet you are Trans, and part of a group that happily allies themselves with people who don't want you to exist.

Do you not see an issue with this?

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

well not necessarily misogyny but just disgusting in general sure

We're discussing whether they're misogynistic, not whether you find them disgusting.

see the thing is that men do it a lot more than women and they're the ones who originally started it, plus their toxicity is much more toxic to others whereas toxic femininity is more quietly self-destructive

I'm not convinced men do do it a lot more than women, and I don't care who started it.

i don't really, i'm not hiding that. but fundamentally, reason is subject to the passions, i'm merely cutting out the middleman

Ah, Hume. My weakness is philosophy because I don't read anything. I'd like to tell you that Kant refuted most of Hume's claims but I can't because I've read neither.

But I still believe that reason ought to be able to veto the passions if need be. If your passions go against all reason I think it's time to find new passions.

[New haven america]

Ah yes, liberty, equality and fraternity. The three elements of disgusting misogyny.

well not necessarily misogyny but just disgusting in general sure

So if you think that is all true (sans misandry being bad), then do you agree that both toxic expectations on men, and toxic expectations on women, are each enforced by both women and men?

If so, then wouldn't it stand to reason that blaming one gender for this state of affairs is counterproductive and wrong?

see the thing is that men do it a lot more than women and they're the ones who originally started it, plus their toxicity is much more toxic to others whereas toxic femininity is more quietly self-destructive

If so then, why the misandry? I'm going to be honest, it doesn't seem like you have a rational basis for it.

i don't really, i'm not hiding that. but fundamentally, reason is subject to the passions, i'm merely cutting out the middleman

Nah, lotta toxic male behavior is caused by women and a lotta toxic female behavior is caused by men.

[Kowani]

But I still believe that reason ought to be able to veto the passions if need be. If your passions go against all reason I think it's time to find new passions.

See, when I say this, people get mad at me.

[Sundiata]

Yes, no feminist of serious academic or legal note believes that.

Mary Koss.

Ok, could you send me a research article or a portion of a publication that she wrote or contributed to which confirms that? It's not that I don't believe you but I need a citation to confirm that belief.

[New haven america]

But I still believe that reason ought to be able to veto the passions if need be. If your passions go against all reason I think it's time to find new passions.

See, when I say this, people get mad at me.

Because you ruin our fun.

[Cekoviu]

well not necessarily misogyny but just disgusting in general sure

We're discussing whether they're misogynistic, not whether you find them disgusting.

we are?

see the thing is that men do it a lot more than women and they're the ones who originally started it, plus their toxicity is much more toxic to others whereas toxic femininity is more quietly self-destructive

I'm not convinced men do do it a lot more than women, and I don't care who started it.

ok well i am and i do so

i don't really, i'm not hiding that. but fundamentally, reason is subject to the passions, i'm merely cutting out the middleman

Ah, Hume. My weakness is philosophy because I don't read anything. I'd like to tell you that Kant refuted most of Hume's claims but I can't because I've read neither.

fyi chidi was pretty much wrong about "kant refuting most of hume's central theses" if that's where you're getting that from

But I still believe that reason ought to be able to veto the passions if need be. If your passions go against all reason I think it's time to find new passions.

not quite how it works but okey dokey

[Kowani]

See, when I say this, people get mad at me.

Because you ruin our fun.

That is technically true, yes.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

fyi chidi was pretty much wrong about "kant refuting most of hume's central theses" if that's where you're getting that from

That is where I was getting it from.

not quite how it works but okey dokey

How does it work then?