The NationStates Feminism Thread IV: Fight Like A Girl!

[The Blaatschapen]

Dear lord! There's a fourth one now? How'd that happen?

One for every wave.

[Stellar Colonies]

Dear lord! There's a fourth one now? How'd that happen?

One for every wave.

I feel there may be a Fifth Wave reference here somewhere, but it escapes me.

[The Blaatschapen]

One for every wave.

I feel there may be a Fifth Wave reference here somewhere, but it escapes me.

More a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_feminism reference

[Grand Hellenic Republic]

And here we go with "sexual assault has consequences now ergo feminism evil". Again.

Sexual Assault has consequences ≠ Random women pop out of nowhere and say a man sexually assaulted them 30 years after the alleged event and when the person is rich, famous, and/or involved in politics.

I am not in a position to deny the validity of their claims, but believing every single claim heard in the past 4 years of metoo is virtually impossible with some of the stories out there.

[New haven america]

Due process?



Feminism is inherently misandrist in theory and practice.



I mean...

Yeah?

And here we go with "sexual assault has consequences now ergo feminism evil". Again.

No one was saying that Vass, please stop strawmanning.

Oh, and you still haven't replied to my question to you in the ST thread, can I get an ETA on that?

[Vassenor]

And here we go with "sexual assault has consequences now ergo feminism evil". Again.

Sexual Assault has consequences ≠ Random women pop out of nowhere and say a man sexually assaulted them 30 years after the alleged event and when the person is rich, famous, and/or involved in politics.

I am not in a position to deny the validity of their claims, but believing every single claim heard in the past 4 years of metoo is virtually impossible with some of the stories out there.

And what is the rate of these actually turning out to be maliciously false?

[New haven america]

Sexual Assault has consequences ≠ Random women pop out of nowhere and say a man sexually assaulted them 30 years after the alleged event and when the person is rich, famous, and/or involved in politics.

I am not in a position to deny the validity of their claims, but believing every single claim heard in the past 4 years of metoo is virtually impossible with some of the stories out there.

And what is the rate of these actually turning out to be maliciously false?

~2%-10% in America, due to the difficulty of sussing out what's true or not due to the legal system.

[Stellar Colonies]

This is something I've been trying to figure out for a while off and on, and I really haven't found an answer to it yet.

The given percentages for rape claims proven false differ, but the numbers I've found tend to be lower than 10%. However, I haven't been able to find a single source which breaks down the percentages of proven false claims, proven true claims, and inconclusive claims from a single pool of study/studies.

I commonly see the percentage of false claims, but it is frustratingly difficult to find it alongside the other two.

Are the reported numbers of proven false claims about the same as proven true claims, with a large number of inconclusive claims? Is true or false reported as far more prevalent than the other? Are the reported numbers inaccurate to the point of being useless for actually gauging the situation?

I have no clue.

Maybe I'm looking in the wrong places or something.

[Ostroeuropa]

And what is the rate of these actually turning out to be maliciously false?

~2%-10% in America, due to the difficulty of sussing out what's true or not due to the legal system.

2-10% of those reported to the police are *proven false*.

Mens due process rights are being violated on university campuses as a result of civil proceedings which may well have higher rates of false accusation.

So it's not merely a matter of acknowledging that the 2-10% figure *only reports those proven false*, but that it also misses the point in that feminists have actively tried to circumvent the legal system which those figures refer to and impose campus kangaroo courts that have been routinely ruled to be violating mens due process rights.

Sexual Assault has consequences ≠ Random women pop out of nowhere and say a man sexually assaulted them 30 years after the alleged event and when the person is rich, famous, and/or involved in politics.

I am not in a position to deny the validity of their claims, but believing every single claim heard in the past 4 years of metoo is virtually impossible with some of the stories out there.

And what is the rate of these actually turning out to be maliciously false?

Due process rights do not only protect men from maliciously false accusations. They protect them from all false accusations, and the number of those is considerably higher.

Due process?



Feminism is inherently misandrist in theory and practice.



I mean...

Yeah?

And here we go with "sexual assault has consequences now ergo feminism evil". Again.

Do you believe in innocent until proven guilty, or don't you.

Do you believe the accused should have legal representation, or don't you.


+

No one was saying that Vass, please stop strawmanning.

They strawman and operate in bad faith in order to intimidate and disconcert. This is common amongst feminists and other hate movements.

“Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.”

It is not a matter of them being unable to understand they are wrong. It is that they don't care. It is a strategy that relies on having institutional power backing them and gatekeeping those institutions from alternatives. They do not need to engage in actual discussion, merely give the appearance of doing so and throw out low-effort ridiculous arguments, demonize critics and so on, and then keep a grip on power to enact their ideology. By pretending to participate in discussion while merely gaslighting political opponents, feminists can push back the day people decide discussion with them is pointless and mobilize directly against them, instead baffling people into thinking they can be "convinced" out of there ideas.

This is the same strategy race-realists use. The temptation is to point out they are factually wrong about their ideas on how races differ, but this is a mistake. They do not sincerely believe the things they are saying, they are merely said in order to avoid them admitting "I just hate this group and want to harm them, and have no intention of stopping. No debate will convince me otherwise.".

It's also similar to what TERF's do. It's filibuster bigotry. By continuing to throw out nonsense, they can keep """Debate""" going and prevent people from realizing they simply need to overpower them and marginalize them from society, as well as whine when they start to do that that they should "Be open to discussion".

[Ostroeuropa]

This is something I've been trying to figure out for a while off and on, and I really haven't found an answer to it yet.

The given percentages for rape claims proven false differ, but the numbers I've found tend to be lower than 10%. However, I haven't been able to find a single source which breaks down the percentages of proven false claims, proven true claims, and inconclusive claims from a single pool of study/studies.

I commonly see the percentage of false claims, but it is frustratingly difficult to find it alongside the other two.

Are the reported numbers of proven false claims about the same as proven true claims, with a large number of inconclusive claims? Is true or false reported as far more prevalent than the other? Are the reported numbers inaccurate to the point of being useless for actually gauging the situation?

I have no clue.

Maybe I'm looking in the wrong places or something.

Firstly, we should note that this only applies to criminal cases. False accusations of rape can occur in a civil and social context in addition to this and are more common than the oft cited 2-10% figure.

Secondly, 2-10% of accusations are *proven* false, and 10% of accusations are *proven* true.
This leaves 80% of claims unproven either way. As such, the rate of false accusations is between 2 and 90% in actuality.

[Ostroeuropa]

As for other mens rights feminism is violating, how about equal protection under the law?

One example would be the push in the UK to criminalize misogyny while womens organizations actively campaign against criminalizing misandry.

Or how about mens right to self-defence?

The duluth model rooted in feminist theory and domestic violence policy imposed by feminism frames men defending themselves from womens violence as a criminal act of aggression.

[Des-Bal]

And what is the rate of these actually turning out to be maliciously false?

Well one malicious doesn't enter into it, especially when you don't even need a conviction to fuck up someone's life. The newton thing about your way of thinking is that it shifts the burden of proof, instead of asking how we know something happened we're supposed to ask if someone can prove it didn't. Proving it didn't is of course exceptionally hard and synergize quite well with decades old claims because witnesses and evidence disappear. If the duke lacrosse stripper made her accusations today there's very little chance those boys would have access to the atm records that proved she was lying. And how about the girl who accused Aziz Ansari of impropriety by trying to initiate sex with her after she went back to his apartment to blow him. If she sat on that story for years and ruminated on it how many critical details would change? How many drafts of her version of events would it take before people no longer recognized she was not a victim?

[Borderlands of Rojava]

Sexual Assault has consequences ≠ Random women pop out of nowhere and say a man sexually assaulted them 30 years after the alleged event and when the person is rich, famous, and/or involved in politics.

I am not in a position to deny the validity of their claims, but believing every single claim heard in the past 4 years of metoo is virtually impossible with some of the stories out there.

And what is the rate of these actually turning out to be maliciously false?

Around 10% are proven to be false. Those are just the ones proven false btw, and there may be more.

That's alot.

[West Leas Oros 2]

Due process?



Feminism is inherently misandrist in theory and practice.



I mean...

Yeah?

And here we go with "sexual assault has consequences now ergo feminism evil". Again.

Holy Strawman, Batman!

[West Leas Oros 2]

None really, but a lot of extreme feminists, or misandrists want to take us back to the Middle Ages, but with reverse roles for women and men. However, I do realise that by far most feminists are not like that.

Don't think I've seen anyone pushing that extreme before.

You literally joined a 4 person alliance standing in opposition to a person who holds said belief.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

Don't think I've seen anyone pushing that extreme before.

You literally joined a 4 person alliance standing in opposition to a person who holds said belief.

A what?!?

[Borderlands of Rojava]

This seems to be a common idea, that there's a finite amount of rights in the world and one group can't have rights without another losing theirs.

True, but women and men aren’t different groups.

Women and men actually are different biologically speaking. In fact the difference between women and men is MUCH more significant than between like black and white people. Whereas no single gene codes for someone to be "black," and people can be half black or a quarter black or whatever, there is an actual genetic code for gender.

Also men and women differ in strength and spatial judgement, whereas black and white folks do not biologically differ besides their skin tone, bone density and facial features.

[The Unified Missourtama States]

This seems to be a common idea, that there's a finite amount of rights in the world and one group can't have rights without another losing theirs.

Rights are not a physical thing, they are a societal idea, there is no reason to say that someone can't have rights.

[West Leas Oros 2]

You literally joined a 4 person alliance standing in opposition to a person who holds said belief.

A what?!?

Vassenor, Cordel One, Greater Ohio Valley, and I created an informal alliance denouncing Cekoviu's sexist shit.

If you can get me to agree with Vass, you know your take is bad.

[Nuroblav]

Vassenor, Cordel One, Greater Ohio Valley, and I created an informal alliance denouncing Cekoviu's sexist shit.

If you can get me to agree with Vass, you know your take is bad.

Everybody gangsta until the informal alliance pops up

[Cekoviu]

Vassenor, Cordel One, Greater Ohio Valley, and I created an informal alliance denouncing Cekoviu's sexist shit.

If you can get me to agree with Vass, you know your take is bad.

Everybody gangsta until the informal alliance pops up

ikr im so scared and intimidated im reconsidering my entire worldview bc a brocialist and three liberals dont like me

[The Rich Port]

Everybody gangsta until the informal alliance pops up

ikr im so scared and intimidated im reconsidering my entire worldview bc a brocialist and three liberals dont like me

And me.

And of me, you should most definitely be scared.

Scared that you don't make any sense and your thoughts about this shit be basic and lukewarm af.

I'm Gimli telling Frodo he got the axe too and you're... I dunno what's a really crappy LOTR villain.

Figwit.

[Des-Bal]

ikr im so scared and intimidated im reconsidering my entire worldview bc a brocialist and three liberals dont like me

Good thing you had labels ready for those who disagree with you, elswise you might have to justify and explain your beliefs.

[New haven america]

Just sounds like a lot of insecurity mixed with parody to me.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

Just sounds like a lot of insecurity mixed with parody to me.

What does?