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The NationStates Feminism Thread IV: Fight Like A Girl!

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Adamede
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Postby Adamede » Wed Jul 22, 2020 5:51 pm

Tarsonis wrote:
Adamede wrote:Hate simply means a passionate dislike, has nothing to do with actively harming someone. I hate spiders for example. However I don't go out of my way to smush every spider I see.



To play the pedant, while yes that his the dictionary definition, that's actually a pretty vague description. Colloquially we tend to understand the deference between hate not just in terms of degrees, but also the presence of malice. To use your spider example, while you don't go out of your way to kill spiders, you likely do kill the ones you do see instead of finding other means of removing them. So while you don't hate them as much as the local exterminator, you do hate them on some level.

I believe GF (ooof, as a radfem did you think that nation name through there?) has this frame of reference. I believe what they're trying to say is that while they dislike the male sex, they don't particularly bear them any ill will.

I don't kill spiders actually. I go out of my way to avoid them, but not to kill them. Just because I don't cause harm doesn't mean I don't hate.

How about another, more human example. I hate authoritarians, regardless of the political persuasion. Fascists, Nazis, theocrats, Stalinists, Maosists, whatever-ist you want to add. I truly hate them, they're scum of the earth and are ideologies tat have caused untold needless suffering throughout history and the fact that there are people who actively believe and defend these ideologies sickens me.
However I have not and never plan to harm someone just because they hold these beliefs.

Does that make my hatred less real?
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Stellar Colonies
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Postby Stellar Colonies » Wed Jul 22, 2020 6:00 pm

Personally speaking, I find it troubling when someone celebrates and tries to help out members of one biological group but either doesn't care about or is hostile towards the welfare of another.
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Stellar Colonies / the Confederation of Human Systems is a confederation which loosely unites a third of the Milky Way galaxy.

The WA embassy within the Confederacy is at Ida Station (243 Ida in the Sol System), a Confederate member state which joined the WA to represent Confederate interests.

An Incomplete List of Ida's Interpretations of WA Resolutions

Add 3000 years for the date I use.

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Tarsonis
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Postby Tarsonis » Wed Jul 22, 2020 6:21 pm

Adamede wrote:
Tarsonis wrote:

To play the pedant, while yes that his the dictionary definition, that's actually a pretty vague description. Colloquially we tend to understand the deference between hate not just in terms of degrees, but also the presence of malice. To use your spider example, while you don't go out of your way to kill spiders, you likely do kill the ones you do see instead of finding other means of removing them. So while you don't hate them as much as the local exterminator, you do hate them on some level.

I believe GF (ooof, as a radfem did you think that nation name through there?) has this frame of reference. I believe what they're trying to say is that while they dislike the male sex, they don't particularly bear them any ill will.

I don't kill spiders actually. I go out of my way to avoid them, but not to kill them. Just because I don't cause harm doesn't mean I don't hate.

We also, in colloquial speech,often use the word hate to hyperbolically describe the intense negative feeling we get as a reaction to something, when really it's the reaction we hate. What you described sounds like revulsion. Seeing a spider causes an intense negative reaction, like getting the creeps, startled, and/or having a minor fight or flight episode.

I have a pretty intense case of arachnophobia myself,but when describing this I don't typically say "I have arachnophobia, " I say "I hate spiders."

Again, I believe it was the context I described in my previous post that GF was using.



How about another, more human example. I hate authoritarians, regardless of the political persuasion. Fascists, Nazis, theocrats, Stalinists, Maosists, whatever-ist you want to add. I truly hate them, they're scum of the earth and are ideologies tat have caused untold needless suffering throughout history and the fact that there are people who actively believe and defend these ideologies sickens me.
However I have not and never plan to harm someone just because they hold these beliefs.

Does that make my hatred less real?


No, it just means the that the ideologies are the subject of your hate, not the people. There's a fine line between hating Communism, and hating communists.


I realize I'm being pretty anal here, but I think in a conversation with as many nuanced point of views there are, we need to be really precise with out language.
Last edited by Tarsonis on Wed Jul 22, 2020 6:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Adamede
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Postby Adamede » Wed Jul 22, 2020 6:28 pm

Tarsonis wrote:
Adamede wrote:I don't kill spiders actually. I go out of my way to avoid them, but not to kill them. Just because I don't cause harm doesn't mean I don't hate.

We often use the word hate to hyperbolically describe a the intense negative feeling we get as a reaction to something, when really it's the reaction we hate. What you described sounds like revulsion. Seeing a spider causes an intense negative reaction, like getting the creeps, startled, and/or having a minor fight or flight episode.

I have a pretty intense case arachnophobia, but when describing this I don't typically say "I have arachnophobia, " I say "I hate spiders."

Fair enough.



How about another, more human example. I hate authoritarians, regardless of the political persuasion. Fascists, Nazis, theocrats, Stalinists, Maosists, whatever-ist you want to add. I truly hate them, they're scum of the earth and are ideologies tat have caused untold needless suffering throughout history and the fact that there are people who actively believe and defend these ideologies sickens me.
However I have not and never plan to harm someone just because they hold these beliefs.

Does that make my hatred less real?


No, it just means the that the ideologies are the subject of your hate, not the people. There's a fine line between hating Communism, and hating communists.


I realize I'm pretty anal here, but I think in a conversation with as many nuanced point of views there are, we need to be really precise with out language.

It's a distinction I don't make. Ideologies only exist because of the people that believe in them. My hatred of political ideologies extends to the people who hold those views. I can appreciate wanting to be precise in your language, but hatred isn't synonymous with malice.
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Tarsonis
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Postby Tarsonis » Wed Jul 22, 2020 6:40 pm

Adamede wrote:
Tarsonis wrote:We often use the word hate to hyperbolically describe a the intense negative feeling we get as a reaction to something, when really it's the reaction we hate. What you described sounds like revulsion. Seeing a spider causes an intense negative reaction, like getting the creeps, startled, and/or having a minor fight or flight episode.

I have a pretty intense case arachnophobia, but when describing this I don't typically say "I have arachnophobia, " I say "I hate spiders."

Fair enough.




No, it just means the that the ideologies are the subject of your hate, not the people. There's a fine line between hating Communism, and hating communists.


I realize I'm pretty anal here, but I think in a conversation with as many nuanced point of views there are, we need to be really precise with out language.

It's a distinction I don't make. Ideologies only exist because of the people that believe in them. My hatred of political ideologies extends to the people who hold those views. I can appreciate wanting to be precise in your language, but hatred isn't synonymous with malice.


But you do make this distinction:

I truly hate them, they're scum of the earth and are ideologies tat have caused untold needless suffering throughout history and the fact that there are people who actively believe and defend these ideologies sickens me.
However I have not and never plan to harm someone just because they hold these beliefs.


Twice there you draw distinction between the Ideology and the professors of said ideology. Which means you understand that while the ideologies persist as long as the followers profess it, the professor and the professed are two different objects. And while you strongly dislike the professor for professing it, it is the professed you want to see destroyed, while bearing no malice toward the professor.
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Ecclesiastes 1:18 "For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow"
Galatians 6:7 " Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow."
1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
T. Stevens: "I don't hold with equality in all things, but I believe in equality under the Law."
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Adamede
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Postby Adamede » Wed Jul 22, 2020 7:10 pm

Tarsonis wrote:
Adamede wrote:Fair enough.




It's a distinction I don't make. Ideologies only exist because of the people that believe in them. My hatred of political ideologies extends to the people who hold those views. I can appreciate wanting to be precise in your language, but hatred isn't synonymous with malice.


But you do make this distinction:

I truly hate them, they're scum of the earth and are ideologies tat have caused untold needless suffering throughout history and the fact that there are people who actively believe and defend these ideologies sickens me.
However I have not and never plan to harm someone just because they hold these beliefs.


Twice there you draw distinction between the Ideology and the professors of said ideology. Which means you understand that while the ideologies persist as long as the followers profess it, the professor and the professed are two different objects. And while you strongly dislike the professor for professing it, it is the professed you want to see destroyed, while bearing no malice toward the professor.
You're right in that I bear no malice towards the believers, or at least malice that I am willing to act upon, i would still say that I hate them. Professors of such ideologies are what make up those ideologies. Otherwise they're just ideals. And while I despise the ideals, that's not the main reason that I hate the ideologies. An ideology is harmless without human agency. As such the human element is a critical, inherent part of it. And you can't truly hate one without hating the other.
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Galloism
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Postby Galloism » Thu Jul 23, 2020 6:21 am

VVerkia wrote:

Idk. Saying you don't give a fuck about men is bordering on hate.

It's like saying black lives don't matter. Then when someone says "you hate black people," you say "no I don't wish ill or go out of my way to harm them."

I say it's different. When you don't care about ants, it doesn't mean, that you hate ants.

Oof.

Think about this for a moment, and apply it in the way the quoted post describes. Apply it to any other group.

“I don’t care about black people.” “When I say I don’t care about black people, it doesn’t mean I hate them.” “When you don’t care about ants, it doesn’t mean you hate ants.”

If someone started this line of reasoning when you’re trying to talk to them about blm, you might rapidly come to certain conclusions - and you would be right.

We should do the same here.
Last edited by Galloism on Thu Jul 23, 2020 6:27 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Giovenith
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Postby Giovenith » Thu Jul 23, 2020 7:13 am

Galloism wrote:
VVerkia wrote:I say it's different. When you don't care about ants, it doesn't mean, that you hate ants.

Oof.

Think about this for a moment, and apply it in the way the quoted post describes. Apply it to any other group.

“I don’t care about black people.” “When I say I don’t care about black people, it doesn’t mean I hate them.” “When you don’t care about ants, it doesn’t mean you hate ants.”

If someone started this line of reasoning when you’re trying to talk to them about blm, you might rapidly come to certain conclusions - and you would be right.

We should do the same here.


“When I say I don’t care about black people, it doesn’t mean I hate them.”

I literally have heard white nationalists say this.
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Galloism
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Postby Galloism » Thu Jul 23, 2020 7:51 am

Giovenith wrote:
Galloism wrote:Oof.

Think about this for a moment, and apply it in the way the quoted post describes. Apply it to any other group.

“I don’t care about black people.” “When I say I don’t care about black people, it doesn’t mean I hate them.” “When you don’t care about ants, it doesn’t mean you hate ants.”

If someone started this line of reasoning when you’re trying to talk to them about blm, you might rapidly come to certain conclusions - and you would be right.

We should do the same here.


“When I say I don’t care about black people, it doesn’t mean I hate them.”

I literally have heard white nationalists say this.

Yes, yes we have.

At a base level, we should care about all people at some level just by virtue of being people. If you proudly declare "I don't care about black people" or "I don't care about asians" or "I don't care about men", you are stating that you are treating them as lesser than you do other groups of people.
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
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Tarsonis
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Postby Tarsonis » Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:42 am

Galloism wrote:
Giovenith wrote:
“When I say I don’t care about black people, it doesn’t mean I hate them.”

I literally have heard white nationalists say this.

Yes, yes we have.

At a base level, we should care about all people at some level just by virtue of being people. If you proudly declare "I don't care about black people" or "I don't care about asians" or "I don't care about men", you are stating that you are treating them as lesser than you do other groups of people.



Sure, but realize that provides context. We wouldn't consider the indifference towards ants hatred because they're bugs. Outside the entomology field who gives a shit? indifference is the default.

Where as with people we understand that altruism is the default not indifference, thus we recognize indifference as malicious and targeted.
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Sundiata
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Postby Sundiata » Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:47 am

I'm disgusted by the recent actions of Florida Rep. Ted Yoho towards NY Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. The demeaning epithets he uttered towards her will not be forgotten.

Shame on the Republican Party.
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Tarsonis
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Postby Tarsonis » Thu Jul 23, 2020 10:52 am

Sundiata wrote:I'm disgusted by the recent actions of Florida Rep. Ted Yoho towards NY Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. The demeaning epithets he uttered towards her will not be forgotten.

Shame on the Republican Party.


Democrats aren't innocent in this regard.
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Galatians 6:7 " Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow."
1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
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Sundiata
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Postby Sundiata » Thu Jul 23, 2020 10:55 am

Tarsonis wrote:
Sundiata wrote:I'm disgusted by the recent actions of Florida Rep. Ted Yoho towards NY Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. The demeaning epithets he uttered towards her will not be forgotten.

Shame on the Republican Party.


Democrats aren't innocent in this regard.

In this specific instance they are, the animosity was entirely unprovoked.
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Tarsonis
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Postby Tarsonis » Thu Jul 23, 2020 11:07 am

Sundiata wrote:
Tarsonis wrote:
Democrats aren't innocent in this regard.

In this specific instance they are, the animosity was entirely unprovoked.


Perhaps not this specific, but confrontational mudslinging is nothing new.

Also the fault here would reside with the individual not the party at large.
Last edited by Tarsonis on Thu Jul 23, 2020 11:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
Proud NS Keyboard Warrior since 2005.
Ecclesiastes 1:18 "For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow"
Galatians 6:7 " Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow."
1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
T. Stevens: "I don't hold with equality in all things, but I believe in equality under the Law."
James I of Aragon "Have you ever considered that our position is Idolatry to the Rabbi?"
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Giovenith
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Postby Giovenith » Thu Jul 23, 2020 6:33 pm

Sundiata wrote:I'm disgusted by the recent actions of Florida Rep. Ted Yoho towards NY Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. The demeaning epithets he uttered towards her will not be forgotten.

Shame on the Republican Party.


Her speech in response was pretty badass.

"Having a daughter does not make a man decent. Having a wife does not make a decent man. Treating people with dignity and respect makes a decent man."

Regardless of politics, she is right. I have never been fond of people who act like treating the women in their families well somehow absolves them of treating women in general like crap. "But I have a daughter" doesn't mean shit if you go around calling women bitches and whores unprovoked.
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Costa Fierro
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Postby Costa Fierro » Thu Jul 23, 2020 11:15 pm

Free Ravensburg wrote:What is your stance on Karens? This refers to both sexes, so no hate, please


The epitome of the entitlement of white middle class women.
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Postby The Black Forrest » Fri Jul 24, 2020 1:08 am

Free Ravensburg wrote:What is your stance on Karens? This refers to both sexes, so no hate, please


I believe the male version is called Kevin.
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Stellar Colonies
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Postby Stellar Colonies » Sun Jul 26, 2020 1:26 pm

Day 194 of 'Stay-At-Home Order'

Native of The East Pacific and Northern California


Stellar Colonies / the Confederation of Human Systems is a confederation which loosely unites a third of the Milky Way galaxy.

The WA embassy within the Confederacy is at Ida Station (243 Ida in the Sol System), a Confederate member state which joined the WA to represent Confederate interests.

An Incomplete List of Ida's Interpretations of WA Resolutions

Add 3000 years for the date I use.

If you want a mental image of me: Straight, white male.

I try to be objective, but I do have some biases.

Also, I'm diagnosed as a high-functioning autistic.

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Giovenith
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Postby Giovenith » Sun Jul 26, 2020 1:31 pm

The Black Forrest wrote:
Free Ravensburg wrote:What is your stance on Karens? This refers to both sexes, so no hate, please


I believe the male version is called Kevin.


I prefer "Richard."
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Rojava Free State
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Postby Rojava Free State » Sun Jul 26, 2020 4:41 pm

Stellar Colonies wrote:https://www.justsecurity.org/71503/trump-administrations-women-peace-and-security-plans-blueprint-for-action-or-empty-promises/

Text of the Women, Peace, and Security Act of 2017

Thoughts on this?


Empty promises. If the US can't make a gain, it usually doesn't give two shits about women or anyone in the global south.

The US government cares so much about the rights of people in the third world that it has a tendency to bomb them and occupy them.
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Postby Tahar Joblis » Mon Jul 27, 2020 5:51 am

Free Ravensburg wrote:What is your stance on Karens? This refers to both sexes, so no hate, please

It's a named stereotype.

Like every named stereotype, it encourages the use of stereotyping and the usage generally displays bigotry. In this case, the mix of types of bigotry involved do include sexism, even if it's mainly a racist stereotype.

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Postby Ors Might » Mon Jul 27, 2020 7:48 am

Giovenith wrote:
The Black Forrest wrote:
I believe the male version is called Kevin.


I prefer "Richard."

Always thought “Karen and Kyle” rung better, myself.
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Saiwania
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Postby Saiwania » Tue Jul 28, 2020 7:42 pm

Sundiata wrote:I'm disgusted by the recent actions of Florida Rep. Ted Yoho towards NY Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. The demeaning epithets he uttered towards her will not be forgotten. Shame on the Republican Party.


Its not something to be ashamed of. I'm willing to bet that most within right wing or conservative circles love what Ted Yoho is doing. Even assuming it is true, I theorize that it is a better move for him to double down and embrace it instead of backpedaling. It is red meat for the base and the majority of the public can care less about this private dispute given that everyone is preoccupied with the pandemic and economic collapse.

If anything, Ted Yoho made a mistake in apologizing. Those who don't like AOC and all that she stands for, are of course going to go low if they can in attacking her. The "clutching of pearls" over this is just another political game being played.
Last edited by Saiwania on Tue Jul 28, 2020 7:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Alcala-Cordel » Tue Jul 28, 2020 7:54 pm

Sundiata wrote:I'm disgusted by the recent actions of Florida Rep. Ted Yoho towards NY Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. The demeaning epithets he uttered towards her will not be forgotten.

Shame on the Republican Party.


On the upside, Yoho destroyed his political career because he couldn't keep his mouth shut. He's gonna spend the rest of his life regretting saying those sexist things
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Giovenith
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Postby Giovenith » Wed Jul 29, 2020 10:01 am

Ors Might wrote:
Giovenith wrote:
I prefer "Richard."

Always thought “Karen and Kyle” rung better, myself.


Kyle is their spoiled son.
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