Viva la Chaz! Seattle's Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone (CHAZ)

[Ifreann]

Clearly not, it doesn't exist any more.

Yet that 16 year old is still dead.

So is George Floyd. So is Breonna Taylor. So are tens of billions of people.

[Hakons]

Do you wish for the CHAZ to still exist?

It'd be nice for people to get more practice at not having cops around before the police are abolished.

So yes, you still wish it existed, regardless of looting, gunshot wounds, and the deaths of black teenagers. Perhaps consider why a wide swath of users are disagreeing with you here.

[Picairn]

So is George Floyd. So is Breonna Taylor. So are tens of billions of people.

One death or many more does not justify another one.

[Northern Davincia]

Do you wish for the CHAZ to still exist?

It'd be nice for people to get more practice at not having cops around before the police are abolished.

I don't see that outcome happening anytime soon...

[Ethel mermania]

Yet that 16 year old is still dead.

So is George Floyd. So is Breonna Taylor. So are tens of billions of people.

Usually you are the one who values every human life.

At least with ms. Taylor and mr. Floyd their killers are being brought to justice. The murdered folks in the CHAZ, not so much.

[Ifreann]

It'd be nice for people to get more practice at not having cops around before the police are abolished.

So yes, you still wish it existed, regardless of looting, gunshot wounds, and the deaths of black teenagers.

As I said, it'd be nice for people to get more practice at not having cops. We'll have to learn how to deal with these things without just sending in the tear gas and rubber bullet dispensers.

Perhaps consider why a wide swath of users are disagreeing with you here.

Because they have very different political beliefs and principles.

[Atheris]

It's finally going down. Good.

[Northern Davincia]

So yes, you still wish it existed, regardless of looting, gunshot wounds, and the deaths of black teenagers.

As I said, it'd be nice for people to get more practice at not having cops. We'll have to learn how to deal with these things without just sending in the tear gas and rubber bullet dispensers.

Just arm everyone.

[Exalted Inquellian State]

It's finally going down. Good.

Yes, my friend.

[Galloism]

So yes, you still wish it existed, regardless of looting, gunshot wounds, and the deaths of black teenagers.

As I said, it'd be nice for people to get more practice at not having cops. We'll have to learn how to deal with these things without just sending in the tear gas and rubber bullet dispensers.

I mean, technically, we lived without police for a long long time. We usually solved the issue via blood feuding until one side ran out of blood to feud with.

And yes, that's why we have cops. To stop blood feuds.

[Galloism]

As I said, it'd be nice for people to get more practice at not having cops. We'll have to learn how to deal with these things without just sending in the tear gas and rubber bullet dispensers.

Just arm everyone.

This plan likely won't make black lives matter more.

[Ifreann]

So is George Floyd. So is Breonna Taylor. So are tens of billions of people.

Usually you are the one who values every human life.

At least with ms. Taylor and mr. Floyd their killers are being brought to justice. The murdered folks in the CHAZ, not so much.

I do value every human life. If it were in my power to restore every life lost in the CHAZ then I would do it and I wouldn't stop there.

---

As I said, it'd be nice for people to get more practice at not having cops. We'll have to learn how to deal with these things without just sending in the tear gas and rubber bullet dispensers.

Just arm everyone.

I don't know that that would help much, especially not just that.

[Washington Resistance Army]

That's not proof, you're just repeating your claim that any crimes that happened happened because people just do crime when there are no cops and not any other reason.

What other reasons are there? It's not part of a generalized crime rate increase because it was restricted solely to CHAZ nor is it a vast right wing conspiracy. The cops moved out of the area so people could break the law without repercussions, and they did. This isn't a controversial thing to say.

[Ifreann]

That's not proof, you're just repeating your claim that any crimes that happened happened because people just do crime when there are no cops and not any other reason.

What other reasons are there? It's not part of a generalized crime rate increase because it was restricted solely to CHAZ nor is it a vast right wing conspiracy. The cops moved out of the area so people could break the law without repercussions, and they did. This isn't a controversial thing to say.

Again, not suggesting a vast right wing conspiracy, just that the obvious violent animosity towards the CHAZ from the right means that it's not useful to compare the crime rate in the CHAZ to other countries or other neighbourhoods, for the same reason that 9/11 isn't included in crime statistics.

[Grand Hellenic Republic]

So...ordinary people do experience a lot of violence in their lives? And this is in the US? But the CHAZ was a failure because of all the non-violent people.

Again, you have a problem with reading and comprehension. Ordinary people would attempt to police their communities, understanding that without cops that responsibility falls on them. Not acting to stop crimes and not wanting to police a zone where THEY have usurped the place of the police is not "non-violence", it is outright cowardice.

My point is that you are treating the CHAZ as if the problems there discredit anarchism but not apply the same standard to other ideologies.

Sure I do, most criticisms of capitalism and the police you made, I have accepted because they are true. You are the one not accepting any flaws in anarchism.

The status quo doesn't justify itself by being the status quo, and the violent suppression of any alternative system doesn't mean that they can't work.

Yeah, it justifies itself by having already been embraced and supported for 200 years. if your system cannot withstand war with other systems then it is absolutely useless since it will not last long.

So like I said, you're saying they bad because they're like cops.

For the third time, you have a problem with understanding what you read. Cops do a lot of very cool stuff too, besides that corrupt bad stuff you feel always obligated to mention, like solve cases! and put murderers and rapists behind bars! (I know, amazing, please contain your enthusiasm) which they have been trained on the best ways of doing in fancy police academies. People who just pick up a gun and volunteer to keep order in an area tend to lack those skills because they are randos who havent been to any academies, and yet as we saw they have no problem doing the corrupt bad stuff since that requires no experience!

I honestly hope to every god who might or might not exist that this was simple enough for you to not misrepresent now.

[Washington Resistance Army]

What other reasons are there? It's not part of a generalized crime rate increase because it was restricted solely to CHAZ nor is it a vast right wing conspiracy. The cops moved out of the area so people could break the law without repercussions, and they did. This isn't a controversial thing to say.

Again, not suggesting a vast right wing conspiracy, just that the obvious violent animosity towards the CHAZ from the right means that it's not useful to compare the crime rate in the CHAZ to other countries or other neighbourhoods, for the same reason that 9/11 isn't included in crime statistics.

I'm not comparing it to other neighborhoods or countries, I'm comparing it to the exact same area last year. CHAZ in June of 2020 when the cops were MIA had more crime than the area had throughout all of 2019. Online rhetoric against it does not equate to real world actions to discredit it, and as far as I'm aware no evidence exists of anyone actually doing that beyond Raz Simone saying they totally were.

Americans are greedy, cruel and short sighted and will use any excuse to do what they want for themselves. In this case the excuse was a withdrawal of police presence.

[Ifreann]

So...ordinary people do experience a lot of violence in their lives? And this is in the US? But the CHAZ was a failure because of all the non-violent people.

Again, you have a problem with reading and comprehension. Ordinary people would attempt to police their communities, understanding that without cops that responsibility falls on them. Not acting to stop crimes and not wanting to police a zone where THEY have usurped the place of the police is not "non-violence", it is outright cowardice.

You said that the people in the CHAZ did not experience much violence before going there, I suggested that they are therefore ordinary people, you denied that, I asked, therefore, if ordinary people, unlike the CHAZ protesters, do experience a lot of violence, and now you deny that as well.

The fuck is happening here? Are you just riffing off my questions to find ways to insult your political opponents? Because I really can't be fucked to deal with that, just play this game with yourself.

[Grand Hellenic Republic]

You said that the people in the CHAZ did not experience much violence before going there, I suggested that they are therefore ordinary people, you denied that, I asked, therefore, if ordinary people, unlike the CHAZ protesters, do experience a lot of violence, and now you deny that as well.

The fuck is happening here? Are you just riffing off my questions to find ways to insult your political opponents? Because I really can't be fucked to deal with that, just play this game with yourself.

I said that they are sheltered to the point where they have not seen even a punch being thrown or some petty school fight, you took that to mean that everyday americans experience extreme hardcore violence in their daily lives or some shit like this.

I am not playng any game, you have spent the past 5 or so pages deflecting every fucking point being made and acting as if you are actually responding, and everyone here can see it. It is insane that you would accuse me of "playing games".

[Neuer Deutsches Reich]

Do you wish for the CHAZ to still exist?

It'd be nice for people to get more practice at not having cops around before the police are abolished.

police will never be abolished, unless people want the whole world to fall into chaos.

[Ifreann]

Again, not suggesting a vast right wing conspiracy, just that the obvious violent animosity towards the CHAZ from the right means that it's not useful to compare the crime rate in the CHAZ to other countries or other neighbourhoods, for the same reason that 9/11 isn't included in crime statistics.

I'm not comparing it to other neighborhoods or countries, I'm comparing it to the exact same area last year. CHAZ in June of 2020 when the cops were MIA had more crime than the area had throughout all of 2019.

How many people died in the World Trade Center on the 11th of September 2000? None? And then thousands on the same date the year after. I guess that proves that having cops is pointless. Can't believe they still exist.

Online rhetoric against it does not equate to real world actions to discredit it,

It demonstrates an attitude towards the area, and it would be silly to suggest that stepping away from the computer radically changes people's attitudes.

and as far as I'm aware no evidence exists of anyone actually doing that beyond Raz Simone saying they totally were.

As far as I am aware no evidence exists to prove that all the crimes happened exclusively because there were no cops around.

Americans are greedy, cruel and short sighted and will use any excuse to do what they want for themselves. In this case the excuse was a withdrawal of police presence.

I'm afraid that I have a higher opinion of the American public than you.

[Bear Stearns]

What other reasons are there? It's not part of a generalized crime rate increase because it was restricted solely to CHAZ nor is it a vast right wing conspiracy. The cops moved out of the area so people could break the law without repercussions, and they did. This isn't a controversial thing to say.

Again, not suggesting a vast right wing conspiracy, just that the obvious violent animosity towards the CHAZ from the right means that it's not useful to compare the crime rate in the CHAZ to other countries or other neighbourhoods, for the same reason that 9/11 isn't included in crime statistics.

What violent animosity towards CHAZ? You know it's considered poor form to just make shit up. All the violence in CHAZ was self-inflicted.

[Neuer Deutsches Reich]

I'm not comparing it to other neighborhoods or countries, I'm comparing it to the exact same area last year. CHAZ in June of 2020 when the cops were MIA had more crime than the area had throughout all of 2019.

How many people died in the World Trade Center on the 11th of September 2000? None? And then thousands on the same date the year after. I guess that proves that having cops is pointless. Can't believe they still exist.

Online rhetoric against it does not equate to real world actions to discredit it,

It demonstrates an attitude towards the area, and it would be silly to suggest that stepping away from the computer radically changes people's attitudes.

and as far as I'm aware no evidence exists of anyone actually doing that beyond Raz Simone saying they totally were.

As far as I am aware no evidence exists to prove that all the crimes happened exclusively because there were no cops around.

Americans are greedy, cruel and short sighted and will use any excuse to do what they want for themselves. In this case the excuse was a withdrawal of police presence.

I'm afraid that I have a higher opinion of the American public than you.

No society or civilization can exist without order. Even currently the most respectful, peaceful nations will fall into anarchy and chaos without it. Those who believe order is not needed, do not understand what will happen without.

[The Reformed American Republic]

So is George Floyd. So is Breonna Taylor. So are tens of billions of people.

Usually you are the one who values every human life.

At least with ms. Taylor and mr. Floyd their killers are being brought to justice. The murdered folks in the CHAZ, not so much.

Socialists usually value justice.... when it is convenient.

[Salus Maior]

Yet that 16 year old is still dead.

So is George Floyd. So is Breonna Taylor. So are tens of billions of people.

You're really into whataboutism, aren't you?

[Salus Maior]

So yes, you still wish it existed, regardless of looting, gunshot wounds, and the deaths of black teenagers.

As I said, it'd be nice for people to get more practice at not having cops. We'll have to learn how to deal with these things without just sending in the tear gas and rubber bullet dispensers.

Yeah, we'll just be shooting each other instead if CHAZ is anything to go by.