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Viva la Chaz! Seattle's Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone (CHAZ)

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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How long do you think the CHAZ will continue to last for?

Not past the day after tomorrow
39
11%
Less than a week
65
19%
More than a week, less than a month
132
38%
More than one month, but not past August
62
18%
Into the Fall, but not the Winter
19
6%
Into Winter, or even 2021, or beyond
27
8%
 
Total votes : 344

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Trollzyn the Infinite
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Postby Trollzyn the Infinite » Thu Jun 11, 2020 6:38 pm

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Things I've Absolutely No Time Nor Patience For
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Cisairse
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Cisairse » Thu Jun 11, 2020 6:40 pm



"Although this is in dispute and hasn’t been substantiated" seems like a pretty fucking important detail to leave out when you make resolute claims that aren't backed by the link you posted.
Now it's clear as a pillar of smoke
The details of the above post are subject to leftist infighting.

And broken Starbucks glass

Yeah, I support my troops
They wave black flags
They wear black masks

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Trollzyn the Infinite
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Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Trollzyn the Infinite » Thu Jun 11, 2020 6:41 pm

Cisairse wrote:
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
Right, I must've missed the part where he was democratically elected in a fair and open system while his every move is under intense public scrutiny with an established system of checks and balances in place to prevent tyranny and oppression.


I'm not sure why you believe that consent to a power structure can only be expressed via democratic elections. That's very inconsistent with how political theorists have more or less always used the term "consent."

The people of North Korea express their consent for the regime by following its orders. The entire populace could, at any given point, just decide that they don't give a fuck about Kim and either die violent deaths or actually depose him. That they do not do this, and thus implicitly give their consent for his ruling over them, is how Kim remains in power.


Probably because they've been brainwashed all their lives to believe he's an all-powerful god who knows when they've been super-super-bad traitor double-thinkers and believe any attempt to try and stage a rebellion is literally impossible because they don't know any better.

You can't consent to something when you've been denied exposure to an alternative.
☆ American Patriot ☆ Civic Nationalist ☆ Nondenominational Christian ☆ Third Positionist ☆
☆ \m/ Rocker & Metalhead \m/ ☆ Anti-Communist ☆ Anti-Fascist ☆ Islamophobe ☆ Anti-Trumper ☆

"My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right."


Things I've Absolutely No Time Nor Patience For
永远不会忘记1989年6月4日天安门广场大屠杀

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Vetalia
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Postby Vetalia » Thu Jun 11, 2020 6:41 pm

Cisairse wrote:You don't have power without consent of the governed. These """warlords""" have no more power than the rest of the people will give them, which, as you can imagine, probably isn't much.


Sure, but they've got the guns and the people don't.
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Vetalia
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Postby Vetalia » Thu Jun 11, 2020 6:47 pm

Cisairse wrote:"Although this is in dispute and hasn’t been substantiated" seems like a pretty fucking important detail to leave out when you make resolute claims that aren't backed by the link you posted.


Right, because business owners subject to an extortion racket are going to substantiate their claims in an area with no police protection. You goofballs really do live in clown world...face it, the CHAZ has degenerated into a warlord/gangster raubwirtschaft autocracy in a single day.
Last edited by Vetalia on Thu Jun 11, 2020 6:51 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Economic Left/Right: 1.63
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 2.05

Trust but verify

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The Black Forrest
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Founded: Antiquity
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby The Black Forrest » Thu Jun 11, 2020 6:47 pm

Cisairse wrote:


"Although this is in dispute and hasn’t been substantiated" seems like a pretty fucking important detail to leave out when you make resolute claims that aren't backed by the link you posted.


How many times has the WSJ published fluff?

Protection money is common in many areas of the world.
*I am a master proofreader after I click Submit.
* There is actually a War on Christmas. But Christmas started it, with it's unparalleled aggression against the Thanksgiving Holiday, and now Christmas has seized much Lebensraum in November, and are pushing into October. The rest of us seek to repel these invaders, and push them back to the status quo ante bellum Black Friday border. -Trotskylvania
* Silence Is Golden But Duct Tape Is Silver.
* I felt like Ayn Rand cornered me at a party, and three minutes in I found my first objection to what she was saying, but she kept talking without interruption for ten more days. - Max Barry talking about Atlas Shrugged

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Greed and Death
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Posts: 51424
Founded: Mar 20, 2008
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Greed and Death » Thu Jun 11, 2020 6:49 pm

The Black Forrest wrote:
Cisairse wrote:
"Although this is in dispute and hasn’t been substantiated" seems like a pretty fucking important detail to leave out when you make resolute claims that aren't backed by the link you posted.


How many times has the WSJ published fluff?

Protection money is common in many areas of the world.


The real problem arises that the Russian mafia controls that area and will likely not take kindly to this shit.

I suspect sometime next month leadership is knocked off. Time these kids learn how the real world works.
"Trying to solve the healthcare problem by mandating people buy insurance is like trying to solve the homeless problem by mandating people buy a house."(paraphrase from debate with Hilary Clinton)
Barack Obama

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Cisairse
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Posts: 8349
Founded: Mar 17, 2017
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Cisairse » Thu Jun 11, 2020 6:52 pm

Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
Cisairse wrote:
I'm not sure why you believe that consent to a power structure can only be expressed via democratic elections. That's very inconsistent with how political theorists have more or less always used the term "consent."

The people of North Korea express their consent for the regime by following its orders. The entire populace could, at any given point, just decide that they don't give a fuck about Kim and either die violent deaths or actually depose him. That they do not do this, and thus implicitly give their consent for his ruling over them, is how Kim remains in power.


Probably because they've been brainwashed all their lives to believe he's an all-powerful god who knows when they've been super-super-bad traitor double-thinkers and believe any attempt to try and stage a rebellion is literally impossible because they don't know any better.

You can't consent to something when you've been denied exposure to an alternative.


That's...not how things work, at all.

The term "consent" here isn't the same as like consent in sex or what the loonies in the Libertarian Party USA think the taxation system should be based on.
It means that state apparatus can only exist in the context of a society which approves of it enough to be either complicit or actively involved in its perpetuation. Whether that consent is informed or not is irrelevant, it's still required, because if it suddenly no longer existed then the power structures governing the society would be dissolved.

You could make the argument that expressing citizen consent by whether or not the people aren't literally killing themselves to exit a regime means that the society is a pretty terrible one, and you'd be correct; however, a society being pretty terrible doesn't mean that it isn't being perpetuated by people consenting to that society.

Likewise in the CHAZ, a militia having a monopoly on the ability to use force doesn't mean that that militia is some all-powerful """""warlord""""". There is no power structure whereas that militia is imposing a regime on other members of the CHAZ.
Now it's clear as a pillar of smoke
The details of the above post are subject to leftist infighting.

And broken Starbucks glass

Yeah, I support my troops
They wave black flags
They wear black masks

User avatar
The Black Forrest
Post Czar
 
Posts: 39582
Founded: Antiquity
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby The Black Forrest » Thu Jun 11, 2020 6:52 pm

Pangurstan wrote:
The Black Forrest wrote:
How are you going to pay for them?

With money


The orignal comment mentioned giving stuff away. Kind of hard to buy new.....l
*I am a master proofreader after I click Submit.
* There is actually a War on Christmas. But Christmas started it, with it's unparalleled aggression against the Thanksgiving Holiday, and now Christmas has seized much Lebensraum in November, and are pushing into October. The rest of us seek to repel these invaders, and push them back to the status quo ante bellum Black Friday border. -Trotskylvania
* Silence Is Golden But Duct Tape Is Silver.
* I felt like Ayn Rand cornered me at a party, and three minutes in I found my first objection to what she was saying, but she kept talking without interruption for ten more days. - Max Barry talking about Atlas Shrugged

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Vetalia
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Posts: 13207
Founded: Mar 23, 2005
Corporate Bordello

Postby Vetalia » Thu Jun 11, 2020 6:53 pm

Greed and Death wrote:The real problem arises that the Russian mafia controls that area and will likely not take kindly to this shit.

I suspect sometime next month leadership is knocked off. Time these kids learn how the real world works.


I doubt the Russian mafia will have much concern about the shortage of vegan products, either. The story of CHAZ is a bunch of soyboys declared independence and got a dose of reality, Third World style.
Economic Left/Right: 1.63
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 2.05

Trust but verify

User avatar
Cisairse
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8349
Founded: Mar 17, 2017
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Cisairse » Thu Jun 11, 2020 6:54 pm

Vetalia wrote:
Cisairse wrote:"Although this is in dispute and hasn’t been substantiated" seems like a pretty fucking important detail to leave out when you make resolute claims that aren't backed by the link you posted.


Right, because business owners subject to an extortion racket are going to substantiate their claims in an area with no police protection. You goofballs really do live in clown world...face it, the CHAZ has degenerated into a warlord/gangster raubwirtschaft autocracy in a single day.


There is quite literally no evidence for that.

Go watch the actual video of the CHAZ I posted earlier and tell me if that looks like a "warlord/gangster raubwirtschaft autocracy."
Now it's clear as a pillar of smoke
The details of the above post are subject to leftist infighting.

And broken Starbucks glass

Yeah, I support my troops
They wave black flags
They wear black masks

User avatar
Nakena
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11522
Founded: May 06, 2017
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Nakena » Thu Jun 11, 2020 6:56 pm

Vetalia wrote:
Greed and Death wrote:The real problem arises that the Russian mafia controls that area and will likely not take kindly to this shit.

I suspect sometime next month leadership is knocked off. Time these kids learn how the real world works.


I doubt the Russian mafia will have much concern about the shortage of vegan products, either. The story of CHAZ is a bunch of soyboys declared independence and got a dose of reality, Third World style.


Theres various political and criminal groups and individuals who will taking advantage of the CHAZ in both the long and short run.

The needles and the junkies are already a foreshadowing.
☯ ₴ɄⱤVłV₳Ⱡ, ₳ĐV₳₦₵Ɇ₥Ɇ₦₮, ɆVØⱠɄ₮łØ₦ ☯
⛤₴Ø₦₳₭ Ø₴⛤
DANCE!

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Vetalia
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Posts: 13207
Founded: Mar 23, 2005
Corporate Bordello

Postby Vetalia » Thu Jun 11, 2020 6:58 pm

Cisairse wrote:There is quite literally no evidence for that.

Go watch the actual video of the CHAZ I posted earlier and tell me if that looks like a "warlord/gangster raubwirtschaft autocracy."


I don't waste my time with propaganda videos, answer my question - why would anyone be reporting extortion if everything is A-OK and the CHAZ is a big happy family?
Economic Left/Right: 1.63
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 2.05

Trust but verify

User avatar
Vetalia
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Posts: 13207
Founded: Mar 23, 2005
Corporate Bordello

Postby Vetalia » Thu Jun 11, 2020 7:00 pm

Nakena wrote:Theres various political and criminal groups and individuals who will taking advantage of the CHAZ in both the long and short run.

The needles and the junkies are already a foreshadowing.


Starvation, lawlessness, crime, drug abuse, extortion, criminal gangs headed by armed warlords running amok, what's not to love? For that matter, how much is on the shelves of that free store right now? Bet it doesn't look like it did yesterday! :lol:
Last edited by Vetalia on Thu Jun 11, 2020 7:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Economic Left/Right: 1.63
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 2.05

Trust but verify

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Trollzyn the Infinite
Minister
 
Posts: 2927
Founded: Aug 22, 2018
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Trollzyn the Infinite » Thu Jun 11, 2020 7:01 pm

Cisairse wrote:
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
Probably because they've been brainwashed all their lives to believe he's an all-powerful god who knows when they've been super-super-bad traitor double-thinkers and believe any attempt to try and stage a rebellion is literally impossible because they don't know any better.

You can't consent to something when you've been denied exposure to an alternative.


That's...not how things work, at all.

The term "consent" here isn't the same as like consent in sex or what the loonies in the Libertarian Party USA think the taxation system should be based on.
It means that state apparatus can only exist in the context of a society which approves of it enough to be either complicit or actively involved in its perpetuation. Whether that consent is informed or not is irrelevant, it's still required, because if it suddenly no longer existed then the power structures governing the society would be dissolved.

You could make the argument that expressing citizen consent by whether or not the people aren't literally killing themselves to exit a regime means that the society is a pretty terrible one, and you'd be correct; however, a society being pretty terrible doesn't mean that it isn't being perpetuated by people consenting to that society.

Likewise in the CHAZ, a militia having a monopoly on the ability to use force doesn't mean that that militia is some all-powerful """""warlord""""". There is no power structure whereas that militia is imposing a regime on other members of the CHAZ.


Typical weaksauce Anarcho-apologist argument.

You cannot create a society without a hierarchy or power structure. It isn't possible. There is always one person or a group of people that have more power or influence over others, even if unofficially. You can make up some nonsense about "consent" but at the end of the day when you've got the barrel of a gun sticking in your face and the question is "submit or die", most people are going to believe they don't have a choice in the matter.

All you're basically doing is kicking everyone whose ever been oppressed while they're down because they didn't have the guts to rise up against their oppressors. Millions of starving Ukrainians didn't "consent" to Stalin's despotic genocide, they feared for their fucking lives. This equivalent to victim-blaming.
☆ American Patriot ☆ Civic Nationalist ☆ Nondenominational Christian ☆ Third Positionist ☆
☆ \m/ Rocker & Metalhead \m/ ☆ Anti-Communist ☆ Anti-Fascist ☆ Islamophobe ☆ Anti-Trumper ☆

"My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right."


Things I've Absolutely No Time Nor Patience For
永远不会忘记1989年6月4日天安门广场大屠杀

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Trollzyn the Infinite
Minister
 
Posts: 2927
Founded: Aug 22, 2018
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Trollzyn the Infinite » Thu Jun 11, 2020 7:03 pm

Vetalia wrote:
Cisairse wrote:There is quite literally no evidence for that.

Go watch the actual video of the CHAZ I posted earlier and tell me if that looks like a "warlord/gangster raubwirtschaft autocracy."


I don't waste my time with propaganda videos, answer my question - why would anyone be reporting extortion if everything is A-OK and the CHAZ is a big happy family?


Republicans! Fox News! Trump! Fascists!

Did I cover all the excuses?
☆ American Patriot ☆ Civic Nationalist ☆ Nondenominational Christian ☆ Third Positionist ☆
☆ \m/ Rocker & Metalhead \m/ ☆ Anti-Communist ☆ Anti-Fascist ☆ Islamophobe ☆ Anti-Trumper ☆

"My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right."


Things I've Absolutely No Time Nor Patience For
永远不会忘记1989年6月4日天安门广场大屠杀

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The Black Forrest
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby The Black Forrest » Thu Jun 11, 2020 7:04 pm

Vetalia wrote:
Cisairse wrote:There is quite literally no evidence for that.

Go watch the actual video of the CHAZ I posted earlier and tell me if that looks like a "warlord/gangster raubwirtschaft autocracy."


I don't waste my time with propaganda videos, answer my question - why would anyone be reporting extortion if everything is A-OK and the CHAZ is a big happy family?


Because those in charge told you so.
*I am a master proofreader after I click Submit.
* There is actually a War on Christmas. But Christmas started it, with it's unparalleled aggression against the Thanksgiving Holiday, and now Christmas has seized much Lebensraum in November, and are pushing into October. The rest of us seek to repel these invaders, and push them back to the status quo ante bellum Black Friday border. -Trotskylvania
* Silence Is Golden But Duct Tape Is Silver.
* I felt like Ayn Rand cornered me at a party, and three minutes in I found my first objection to what she was saying, but she kept talking without interruption for ten more days. - Max Barry talking about Atlas Shrugged

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Vetalia
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 13207
Founded: Mar 23, 2005
Corporate Bordello

Postby Vetalia » Thu Jun 11, 2020 7:07 pm

Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:Republicans! Fox News! Trump! Fascists!

Did I cover all the excuses?


Nah, you hit all of them, I was going to say Russians but that is covered by Trump, RUSSIA RUSSIA RUSSIA!

What is amazing is that of all the political and economic systems that have existed in human history only Communism needs to have its atrocious death toll, the highest in human history, to say nothing of the economic devastation inflicted, excused by "it's not real Communism!".
Last edited by Vetalia on Thu Jun 11, 2020 7:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Economic Left/Right: 1.63
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 2.05

Trust but verify

User avatar
Cisairse
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8349
Founded: Mar 17, 2017
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Cisairse » Thu Jun 11, 2020 7:07 pm

Vetalia wrote:
Cisairse wrote:There is quite literally no evidence for that.

Go watch the actual video of the CHAZ I posted earlier and tell me if that looks like a "warlord/gangster raubwirtschaft autocracy."


I don't waste my time with propaganda videos, answer my question - why would anyone be reporting extortion if everything is A-OK and the CHAZ is a big happy family?


Because rightists and Republicans are determined to discredit the CHAZ as much as possible.

Remember the fabrication that started spreading the other day that the CHAZ had "run out of food"? Total lie, made up by righists to try and get public opinion turned away from the zone.
Now it's clear as a pillar of smoke
The details of the above post are subject to leftist infighting.

And broken Starbucks glass

Yeah, I support my troops
They wave black flags
They wear black masks

User avatar
The Black Forrest
Post Czar
 
Posts: 39582
Founded: Antiquity
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby The Black Forrest » Thu Jun 11, 2020 7:10 pm

Cisairse wrote:
Vetalia wrote:
I don't waste my time with propaganda videos, answer my question - why would anyone be reporting extortion if everything is A-OK and the CHAZ is a big happy family?


Because rightists and Republicans are determined to discredit the CHAZ as much as possible.

Remember the fabrication that started spreading the other day that the CHAZ had "run out of food"? Total lie, made up by righists to try and get public opinion turned away from the zone.


I am not a rightest or a republican. I don't give chaz much credit. I think they will be gone.
*I am a master proofreader after I click Submit.
* There is actually a War on Christmas. But Christmas started it, with it's unparalleled aggression against the Thanksgiving Holiday, and now Christmas has seized much Lebensraum in November, and are pushing into October. The rest of us seek to repel these invaders, and push them back to the status quo ante bellum Black Friday border. -Trotskylvania
* Silence Is Golden But Duct Tape Is Silver.
* I felt like Ayn Rand cornered me at a party, and three minutes in I found my first objection to what she was saying, but she kept talking without interruption for ten more days. - Max Barry talking about Atlas Shrugged

User avatar
Nakena
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11522
Founded: May 06, 2017
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Nakena » Thu Jun 11, 2020 7:11 pm

Vetalia wrote:
Nakena wrote:Theres various political and criminal groups and individuals who will taking advantage of the CHAZ in both the long and short run.

The needles and the junkies are already a foreshadowing.


Starvation, lawlessness, crime, drug abuse, extortion, criminal gangs headed by armed warlords running amok, what's not to love? For that matter, how much is on the shelves of that free store right now? Bet it doesn't look like it did yesterday! :lol:


Funfact that the Zapatistas (argueably one of the more sucessfull groups) are very strictly enforcing their laws and rules on their turf. They do not tolerate drunkenness etc in their area. I do not believe that Cisairse would be supportive of that. ; D
☯ ₴ɄⱤVłV₳Ⱡ, ₳ĐV₳₦₵Ɇ₥Ɇ₦₮, ɆVØⱠɄ₮łØ₦ ☯
⛤₴Ø₦₳₭ Ø₴⛤
DANCE!

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Trollzyn the Infinite
Minister
 
Posts: 2927
Founded: Aug 22, 2018
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Trollzyn the Infinite » Thu Jun 11, 2020 7:12 pm

Cisairse wrote:
Vetalia wrote:
I don't waste my time with propaganda videos, answer my question - why would anyone be reporting extortion if everything is A-OK and the CHAZ is a big happy family?


Because rightists and Republicans are determined to discredit the CHAZ as much as possible.

Remember the fabrication that started spreading the other day that the CHAZ had "run out of food"? Total lie, made up by righists to try and get public opinion turned away from the zone.


And who "proved" that it was a lie and how? A neutral third party, or "CHAZ"?
☆ American Patriot ☆ Civic Nationalist ☆ Nondenominational Christian ☆ Third Positionist ☆
☆ \m/ Rocker & Metalhead \m/ ☆ Anti-Communist ☆ Anti-Fascist ☆ Islamophobe ☆ Anti-Trumper ☆

"My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right."


Things I've Absolutely No Time Nor Patience For
永远不会忘记1989年6月4日天安门广场大屠杀

User avatar
Vetalia
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 13207
Founded: Mar 23, 2005
Corporate Bordello

Postby Vetalia » Thu Jun 11, 2020 7:12 pm

Cisairse wrote:Because rightists and Republicans are determined to discredit the CHAZ as much as possible.

Remember the fabrication that started spreading the other day that the CHAZ had "run out of food"? Total lie, made up by righists to try and get public opinion turned away from the zone.


Yeah, those damn rightists making up the extortion racket to defame the leftist warlords with sociology degrees. You sound like Squealer from Animal Farm saying everything is great when you're in a world of shit.
Last edited by Vetalia on Thu Jun 11, 2020 7:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Economic Left/Right: 1.63
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 2.05

Trust but verify

User avatar
Cisairse
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8349
Founded: Mar 17, 2017
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Cisairse » Thu Jun 11, 2020 7:15 pm

Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
Cisairse wrote:
Because rightists and Republicans are determined to discredit the CHAZ as much as possible.

Remember the fabrication that started spreading the other day that the CHAZ had "run out of food"? Total lie, made up by righists to try and get public opinion turned away from the zone.


And who "proved" that it was a lie and how? A neutral third party, or "CHAZ"?


The author of the tweet being passed around as "evidence" that they had run out of food confirmed that the tweet was fake and that they never posted it.
Now it's clear as a pillar of smoke
The details of the above post are subject to leftist infighting.

And broken Starbucks glass

Yeah, I support my troops
They wave black flags
They wear black masks

User avatar
Vetalia
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 13207
Founded: Mar 23, 2005
Corporate Bordello

Postby Vetalia » Thu Jun 11, 2020 7:15 pm

Nakena wrote:Funfact that the Zapatistas (argueably one of the more sucessfull groups) are very strictly enforcing their laws and rules on their turf. They do not tolerate drunkenness etc in their area. I do not believe that Cisairse would be supportive of that. ; D


Only Inner Party members and the warlord's inner circle are allowed to indulge in such substances.
Economic Left/Right: 1.63
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 2.05

Trust but verify

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