Viva la Chaz! Seattle's Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone (CHAZ)

[Novus America]

I'm not comparing it to other neighborhoods or countries, I'm comparing it to the exact same area last year. CHAZ in June of 2020 when the cops were MIA had more crime than the area had throughout all of 2019.

How many people died in the World Trade Center on the 11th of September 2000? None? And then thousands on the same date the year after. I guess that proves that having cops is pointless. Can't believe they still exist.

Online rhetoric against it does not equate to real world actions to discredit it,

It demonstrates an attitude towards the area, and it would be silly to suggest that stepping away from the computer radically changes people's attitudes.

and as far as I'm aware no evidence exists of anyone actually doing that beyond Raz Simone saying they totally were.

As far as I am aware no evidence exists to prove that all the crimes happened exclusively because there were no cops around.

Americans are greedy, cruel and short sighted and will use any excuse to do what they want for themselves. In this case the excuse was a withdrawal of police presence.

I'm afraid that I have a higher opinion of the American public than you.

Drop the whataboutism and answer this. What evidence do you have that completely uncountable self appointed “militias” do a better job than professional law enforcement?

It is clear they do not, which is why we moved away from this. How is going back to the 1600s Matthew Hopkins style law enforcement (which is exactly what we got in CHAZ/CHOP) going to help us?

Law enforcement is a complicated task requiring trained professionals. Yes the trained professionals are not perfect, and yes they can be made better, but having completely uncountable amateur militias doing it again is not the solution.

[Salus Maior]

Why would I provide proof of something you obviously already know to be true? You're clearly reading this thread, you can clearly see the violent sentiments various right wingers hold towards the CHAZ, you cannot possibly be unaware of right wing terrorism in the United States. If you want me to waste my time then I'll have to ask you to find something more entertaining for me to waste it on.

I don't know it to be true. Produce proof that it was right-wing extremists who committed violence in CHAZ.

You're making the bloody claim, so back it up with fact. It shouldn't be hard to find if it is true, considering we should surely know who was killed and who did the killing.

And if we don't know who did the killing, then there's no proof that it was a right-wing terrorist and you're just making shit up because you want it to be true.

[Atheris]

Produce proof of this.

Why would I provide proof of something you obviously already know to be true? You're clearly reading this thread, you can clearly see the violent sentiments various right wingers hold towards the CHAZ, you cannot possibly be unaware of right wing terrorism in the United States. If you want me to waste my time then I'll have to ask you to find something more entertaining for me to waste it on.

...Because the burden of proof lies on you?

[Ifreann]

Usually you are the one who values every human life.

At least with ms. Taylor and mr. Floyd their killers are being brought to justice. The murdered folks in the CHAZ, not so much.

Socialists usually value justice.... when it is convenient.

I suspect that you and I have different ideas of what constitutes justice.

---

So is George Floyd. So is Breonna Taylor. So are tens of billions of people.

You're really into whataboutism, aren't you?

You don't really know what that word means, do you?

---

Why would I provide proof of something you obviously already know to be true? You're clearly reading this thread, you can clearly see the violent sentiments various right wingers hold towards the CHAZ, you cannot possibly be unaware of right wing terrorism in the United States. If you want me to waste my time then I'll have to ask you to find something more entertaining for me to waste it on.

I don't know it to be true. Produce proof that it was right-wing extremists who committed violence in CHAZ.

You're making the bloody claim, so back it up with fact. It shouldn't be hard to find if it is true, considering we should surely know who was killed and who did the killing.

And if we don't know who did the killing, then there's no proof that it was a right-wing terrorist and you're just making shit up because you want it to be true.

I never made any claims about the identity of the perpetrators of any crimes.

[Joohan]

Do you wish for the CHAZ to still exist?

It'd be nice for people to get more practice at not having cops around before the police are abolished.

I don't think people should ever have to get used to living in a climate oppressed by the constant fear of rape, murder, and theft...

But hey, i'm just a bootlicker, so what do I know?

[Salus Maior]

You don't really know what that word means, do you?

I never made any claims about the identity of the perpetrators of any crimes.

Whataboutism, also known as whataboutery, is a variant of the tu quoque logical fallacy that attempts to discredit an opponent's position by charging them with hypocrisy without directly refuting or disproving their argument. Whataboutism is particularly associated with Soviet and Russian propaganda.

This is what you have been doing.

You are making the claim that Right Wing extremists are responsible for the violence in CHAZ, this would imply the people responsible for the deaths in CHAZ are right wing extremists or are somehow connected to them. Substantiate your claim or concede. It's pathetic how much you're avoiding this. Even you know you're wrong, you just don't want to admit it.

[Atheris]

You don't really know what that word means, do you?

I never made any claims about the identity of the perpetrators of any crimes.

Whataboutism, also known as whataboutery, is a variant of the tu quoque logical fallacy that attempts to discredit an opponent's position by charging them with hypocrisy without directly refuting or disproving their argument. Whataboutism is particularly associated with Soviet and Russian propaganda.

This is what you have been doing.

You are making the claim that Right Wing extremists are responsible for the violence in CHAZ, this would imply the people responsible for the deaths in CHAZ are right wing extremists or are somehow connected to them. Substantiate your claim or concede. It's pathetic how much you're avoiding this. Even you know you're wrong, you just don't want to admit it.

I feel like a better example for whataboutism is the last few years before the Roman Civil War. Whenever the Pompeyans criticized Caesar, asking him to end his governorship, the Caesarians always asked "What about Pompey? He hasn't given up anything!" or something to that effect.

[Sedgistan]

I'm not comparing it to other neighborhoods or countries, I'm comparing it to the exact same area last year. CHAZ in June of 2020 when the cops were MIA had more crime than the area had throughout all of 2019. Online rhetoric against it does not equate to real world actions to discredit it, and as far as I'm aware no evidence exists of anyone actually doing that beyond Raz Simone saying they totally were.

Americans are greedy, cruel and short sighted and will use any excuse to do what they want for themselves. In this case the excuse was a withdrawal of police presence.

Underlining is mine. *** 1 week ban for trolling ***

[Diopolis]

I never made any claims about the identity of the perpetrators of any crimes.

Yes, you did.

Technicalities can be fun, but if you don't agree then perhaps consider that the CHAZ is not comparable to a country for more reasons than just technicalities. The CHAZ is being targetted for violent attacks by right wing extremists who apparently cannot tolerate any area not being subject police authority. You may as well talk about the murder rate in New York on the 11th of September 2001. Does that make for a fair assessment of the safety provided by a large police force? Exceptional circumstances cannot be fairly compared to ordinary circumstances, and the very existence of the CHAZ is an exceptional circumstance.

[Senkaku]

[

Drop the whataboutism and answer this. What evidence do you have that completely uncountable self appointed “militias” do a better job than professional law enforcement?

Well, they kept me a hell of a lot safer than SPD could have or did yesterday— the protests I was at at 23rd and Union and at Westlake had organized teams guarding perimeter barricades and escorting agitators out of the crowds (and they did show up and try to disrupt and attack) and things went quite smoothly.

Versus the protest over on Capitol Hill without barricades yesterday where Proud Boys showed up and started macing people, and the cops escorted them away and arrested some protesters. Or the actual cop who tried to run over protesters last night, before another person actually did it.

Also, SPD has basically shut down all the businesses in the former CHOP area and is making anyone going through there show ID to prove they live.

You don't really know what that word means, do you?

I never made any claims about the identity of the perpetrators of any crimes.

Whataboutism, also known as whataboutery, is a variant of the tu quoque logical fallacy that attempts to discredit an opponent's position by charging them with hypocrisy without directly refuting or disproving their argument. Whataboutism is particularly associated with Soviet and Russian propaganda.

This is what you have been doing.

You are making the claim that Right Wing extremists are responsible for the violence in CHAZ, this would imply the people responsible for the deaths in CHAZ are right wing extremists or are somehow connected to them. Substantiate your claim or concede. It's pathetic how much you're avoiding this. Even you know you're wrong, you just don't want to admit it.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.kiro7. ... utType=amp

There’s one piece for one attack (though I’m guessing you’ll say “well that’s just what the shooter said he was probably lying,” which, fine)— I believe Sawant has made claims about a different shooting that are less clear, and I’m pretty sure CHOP security shot the last two victims (though I’ll have to check back a ways for that tweet). I’ve only been there for one (Nikolas Fernandez), which I think was unambiguously an intentional attempt to kill people (since I almost got run over lol), and some people have tied him to right wing groups.

Yes, it’s murky who shot who for some of these incidents. But given the fact that the attackers almost always came from outside of CHOP firing in, and that people have also been facing these ramming attacks, police brutality, and now bands of Proud Boys with mace, you can understand why many people in Seattle just agree “it was a right wing agitator” when it isn’t clear what happened. It doesn’t make your position (seemingly that it positively WAS NOT right wing agitators?) any more substantiated, and while we’re speculating, for all we know some of these incidents could’ve been undertaken by undercover cops!

If you want to keep yourself abreast of what’s going on better than KUOW or KOMO or KIRO can, I would strongly suggest following the #s seattleprotest, seattleprotests, and seattleprotestcomms— credible news agencies are only going to report facts they can exhaustively verify (e.g., “someone died”), not information that may only have been filmed or witnessed by a small group of people late at night.

[Senkaku]

It'd be nice for people to get more practice at not having cops around before the police are abolished.

I don't think people should ever have to get used to living in a climate oppressed by the constant fear of rape, murder, and theft...

But hey, i'm just a bootlicker, so what do I know?

Do you know what’s happening to people who live in CHOP now? Businesses being closed, deliveries being blocked, police demanding ID from residents just going to and from their own homes? And it’s not like people aren’t still getting killed or brutalized! If the theory is that the cops are going to protect us better than anything else, then clearly that’s failed— they literally let Proud Boys run around macing people yesterday, and appear to have let the driver who killed Summer Taylor on to the freeway through a blocked entry ramp. They’ve been firing flashbangs at protesters by Broadway and beating them. Their interest is in punishing those who’ve dared to challenge them, not protecting their community.

[Loben The 2nd]

I don't think people should ever have to get used to living in a climate oppressed by the constant fear of rape, murder, and theft...

But hey, i'm just a bootlicker, so what do I know?

Do you know what’s happening to people who live in CHOP now? Businesses being closed, deliveries being blocked, police demanding ID from residents just going to and from their own homes? And it’s not like people aren’t still getting killed or brutalized! If the theory is that the cops are going to protect us better than anything else, then clearly that’s failed— they literally let Proud Boys run around macing people yesterday, and appear to have let the driver who killed Summer Taylor on to the freeway through a blocked entry ramp. They’ve been firing flashbangs at protesters by Broadway and beating them. Their interest is in punishing those who’ve dared to challenge them, not protecting their community.

CHOP doesnt exist anymore now does it.

[The Reformed American Republic]

I never made any claims about the identity of the perpetrators of any crimes.

Yes, you did.

Technicalities can be fun, but if you don't agree then perhaps consider that the CHAZ is not comparable to a country for more reasons than just technicalities. The CHAZ is being targetted for violent attacks by right wing extremists who apparently cannot tolerate any area not being subject police authority. You may as well talk about the murder rate in New York on the 11th of September 2001. Does that make for a fair assessment of the safety provided by a large police force? Exceptional circumstances cannot be fairly compared to ordinary circumstances, and the very existence of the CHAZ is an exceptional circumstance.

Debating with them is a pointless exercise. That is why I'm no longer going to either.

[Senkaku]

Do you know what’s happening to people who live in CHOP now? Businesses being closed, deliveries being blocked, police demanding ID from residents just going to and from their own homes? And it’s not like people aren’t still getting killed or brutalized! If the theory is that the cops are going to protect us better than anything else, then clearly that’s failed— they literally let Proud Boys run around macing people yesterday, and appear to have let the driver who killed Summer Taylor on to the freeway through a blocked entry ramp. They’ve been firing flashbangs at protesters by Broadway and beating them. Their interest is in punishing those who’ve dared to challenge them, not protecting their community.

CHOP doesnt exist anymore now does it.

“The area formerly known as CHOP” is a mouthful to type out every time I want to refer to the sixish blocks around Pine and 12th lol