Erdogan turns Ayasofya museum into a place of worship

[Rojava Free State]

The response to Erdogan turning a museum open to all religions into a place of worship for one religion should be for as many countries as possible to officially change Istanbul's name to Constantinople on their maps. Erdogan's doing this to pander to the extremist vote, and embarrassing Turkey like that will certainly show Erdogan that there's a price to be paid for his shenanigans.

Just change the official name of Turkey to "occupied Byzantium" and don't change it back till Erdogan backs the fuck off and stops acting like Turkish Hitler.

[Shofercia]

The response to Erdogan turning a museum open to all religions into a place of worship for one religion should be for as many countries as possible to officially change Istanbul's name to Constantinople on their maps. Erdogan's doing this to pander to the extremist vote, and embarrassing Turkey like that will certainly show Erdogan that there's a price to be paid for his shenanigans.

The pagans wouldn't like that. Should be named Byzantium instead.

Fair enough, I'm down.

The response to Erdogan turning a museum open to all religions into a place of worship for one religion should be for as many countries as possible to officially change Istanbul's name to Constantinople on their maps. Erdogan's doing this to pander to the extremist vote, and embarrassing Turkey like that will certainly show Erdogan that there's a price to be paid for his shenanigans.

Just change the official name of Turkey to "occupied Byzantium" and don't change it back till Erdogan backs the fuck off and stops acting like Turkish Hitler.

Even better, although I do have an issue with quite a few people going "person I revile is Hitler" which is wrong. Erdogan is a mix of a Pol Pot when it comes to Kurds, and a wannabe imperialist, but he's not Hitler. Adolf Hitler had no issues killing off 90% of people he didn't like, be it Jews, Red Army soldiers in prison, Commie Slavs, etc. No one is that degree of evil, at least not in the twentieth and twenty first centuries. But I love the Occupied Byzantium suggestion, totally down for that.

[Rojava Free State]

The pagans wouldn't like that. Should be named Byzantium instead.

Fair enough, I'm down.

Just change the official name of Turkey to "occupied Byzantium" and don't change it back till Erdogan backs the fuck off and stops acting like Turkish Hitler.

Even better, although I do have an issue with quite a few people going "person I revile is Hitler" which is wrong. Erdogan is a mix of a Pol Pot when it comes to Kurds, and a wannabe imperialist, but he's not Hitler. Adolf Hitler had no issues killing off 90% of people he didn't like, be it Jews, Red Army soldiers in prison, Commie Slavs, etc. No one is that degree of evil, at least not in the twentieth and twenty first centuries. But I love the Occupied Byzantium suggestion, totally down for that.

Not even ISIS is that evil? I think there have been many hitler like figures throughout history.

As for Erdogan, his kill rate isn't so hitleresque as much as his myth of past glory for the turkish people, made up history such as turks discovering America and landing on the moon first, racial supremacism and his moustache.

[La Xinga]

I'm not sure if I see the issue, can someone tell me what's going on? Place of worships for Muslims?

I think we all also forget Istanbul is part of Turkey today. The Turk have right to do with the buidling whatever they want.

Amazing, but what's the issue? Why are people offended? I want to know!

[Rojava Free State]

I think we all also forget Istanbul is part of Turkey today. The Turk have right to do with the buidling whatever they want.

The Warren Islamic Center is located in the United States, a nation run by a president who peddled in Islamaphobia time and time again.

Didn't make it right when those fucktards vandalized the Islamic center last night, nor is it Erdogan's right to turn an ancient church into a mosque just so he can tell Greece "fuck off, I got work to do."

[Diarcesia]

I think we all also forget Istanbul is part of Turkey today. The Turk have right to do with the buidling whatever they want.

In all honesty people are uppity because it's possible that the slope would become more slippery for Turkey and Erdogan after this. Not to mention the rancor of the same people who would decry that Notre Dame is a tourist spot and not the proper church it used to be.

Yay for self-determination methinks.

I think we all also forget Istanbul is part of Turkey today. The Turk have right to do with the buidling whatever they want.

The Warren Islamic Center is located in the United States, a nation run by a president who peddled in Islamaphobia time and time again.

Didn't make it right when those fucktards vandalized the Islamic center last night, nor is it Erdogan's right to turn an ancient church into a mosque just so he can tell Greece "fuck off, I got work to do."

Can he do it? Yes. Is it distasteful? Yes.

[La Xinga]

I think we all also forget Istanbul is part of Turkey today. The Turk have right to do with the buidling whatever they want.

The Warren Islamic Center is located in the United States, a nation run by a president who peddled in Islamaphobia time and time again.

Didn't make it right when those fucktards vandalized the Islamic center last night, nor is it Erdogan's right to turn an ancient church into a mosque just so he can tell Greece "fuck off, I got work to do."

Wasn't it already a mosque after the church? Turning it back into a mosque from a museum shouldn't be a big deal.

[Diarcesia]

The Warren Islamic Center is located in the United States, a nation run by a president who peddled in Islamaphobia time and time again.

Didn't make it right when those fucktards vandalized the Islamic center last night, nor is it Erdogan's right to turn an ancient church into a mosque just so he can tell Greece "fuck off, I got work to do."

Wasn't it already a mosque after the church? Turning it back into a mosque from a museum shouldn't be a big deal.

Christianophiles would like to learn your location.

Anyway, I wouldn't be surprised that shortly Erdogan would bar non-Muslims from the place.

[Rojava Free State]

The Warren Islamic Center is located in the United States, a nation run by a president who peddled in Islamaphobia time and time again.

Didn't make it right when those fucktards vandalized the Islamic center last night, nor is it Erdogan's right to turn an ancient church into a mosque just so he can tell Greece "fuck off, I got work to do."

Wasn't it already a mosque after the church? Turning it back into a mosque from a museum shouldn't be a big deal.

It never should have been turned into a mosque. That was an act of cultural destruction.

[La Xinga]

Wasn't it already a mosque after the church? Turning it back into a mosque from a museum shouldn't be a big deal.

Christianophiles would like to learn your location.

Anyway, I wouldn't be surprised that shortly Erdogan would bar non-Muslims from the place.

He'd probably bar everyone from there, considering he's Erdogan.

Wasn't it already a mosque after the church? Turning it back into a mosque from a museum shouldn't be a big deal.

It never should have been turned into a mosque. That was an act of cultural destruction.

Now that I could understand.

[Diarcesia]

Christianophiles would like to learn your location.

Anyway, I wouldn't be surprised that shortly Erdogan would bar non-Muslims from the place.

He'd probably bar everyone from there, considering he's Erdogan.

Even Muslims? For what reason?

[La Xinga]

He'd probably bar everyone from there, considering he's Erdogan.

Even Muslims? For what reason?

He's mr. unpredictable Erdogan.

[Diarcesia]

Even Muslims? For what reason?

He's mr. unpredictable Erdogan.

Would be one heck of a plot twist if he did that so he can re-secularize and call himself Atatürk 2: Electric Boogaloo.

[Neuer Deutsches Reich]

The response to Erdogan turning a museum open to all religions into a place of worship for one religion should be for as many countries as possible to officially change Istanbul's name to Constantinople on their maps. Erdogan's doing this to pander to the extremist vote, and embarrassing Turkey like that will certainly show Erdogan that there's a price to be paid for his shenanigans.

Just change the official name of Turkey to "occupied Byzantium" and don't change it back till Erdogan backs the fuck off and stops acting like Turkish Hitler.

Great idea, I have been doing this for years already. Istanbul? Is Stan a bull? Nah I only know Constantinople.

[Shofercia]

Fair enough, I'm down.




Even better, although I do have an issue with quite a few people going "person I revile is Hitler" which is wrong. Erdogan is a mix of a Pol Pot when it comes to Kurds, and a wannabe imperialist, but he's not Hitler. Adolf Hitler had no issues killing off 90% of people he didn't like, be it Jews, Red Army soldiers in prison, Commie Slavs, etc. No one is that degree of evil, at least not in the twentieth and twenty first centuries. But I love the Occupied Byzantium suggestion, totally down for that.

Not even ISIS is that evil? I think there have been many hitler like figures throughout history.

As for Erdogan, his kill rate isn't so hitleresque as much as his myth of past glory for the turkish people, made up history such as turks discovering America and landing on the moon first, racial supremacism and his moustache.

Not even ISIS. Hitler was a mass rapist, mass murderer, and a genocidal maniac, whereas ISIS are just mass rapists and mass murderers. As for making up History, Ukraine takes the cake with Heracles the Crimean defending Ukrainians from Russians.

I think we all also forget Istanbul is part of Turkey today. The Turk have right to do with the buidling whatever they want.

According to that logic, Americans can wipe out all of the Sacred Places in Hawaii since it's a part of America, so why not wipe everything out? If I buy a park with a Historic House, I have to maintain it. If a country inherits a Sacred Site, it's the country's duty to maintain said site to obtain the best results, which, in this case, is keeping the Hagia Sophia as a museum.

[Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum]

The response to Erdogan turning a museum open to all religions into a place of worship for one religion should be for as many countries as possible to officially change Istanbul's name to Constantinople on their maps. Erdogan's doing this to pander to the extremist vote, and embarrassing Turkey like that will certainly show Erdogan that there's a price to be paid for his shenanigans.

The dreams of those who are Megali idea will fall into water again. Crusaders and jihadists will not be able to divide us, we are an honorable nation carrying the sword of secularism. Greece should not touch the house where Atatürk was born, more valuable for us than Ayasofya.

I think we all also forget Istanbul is part of Turkey today. The Turk have right to do with the buidling whatever they want.

According to that logic, Americans can wipe out all of the Sacred Places in Hawaii since it's a part of America, so why not wipe everything out? If I buy a park with a Historic House, I have to maintain it. If a country inherits a Sacred Site, it's the country's duty to maintain said site to obtain the best results, which, in this case, is keeping the Hagia Sophia as a museum.

It is wrong to turn Ayasofya into a mosque, but it does not concern foreigners.

Just change the official name of Turkey to "occupied Byzantium" and don't change it back till Erdogan backs the fuck off and stops acting like Turkish Hitler.

Great idea, I have been doing this for years already. Istanbul? Is Stan a bull? Nah I only know Constantinople.

Study geography lesson

[Heloin]

According to that logic, Americans can wipe out all of the Sacred Places in Hawaii since it's a part of America, so why not wipe everything out? If I buy a park with a Historic House, I have to maintain it. If a country inherits a Sacred Site, it's the country's duty to maintain said site to obtain the best results, which, in this case, is keeping the Hagia Sophia as a museum.

It is wrong to turn Ayasofya into a mosque, but it does not concern foreigners.

Your not from here has been and will always be a shit argument.

Great idea, I have been doing this for years already. Istanbul? Is Stan a bull? Nah I only know Constantinople.

Study geography lesson

Istanbul was Constantinople
Now it's Istanbul, not Constantinople
Been a long time gone, Oh Constantinople
Now it's Turkish delight on a moonlit night

[Shofercia]

The response to Erdogan turning a museum open to all religions into a place of worship for one religion should be for as many countries as possible to officially change Istanbul's name to Constantinople on their maps. Erdogan's doing this to pander to the extremist vote, and embarrassing Turkey like that will certainly show Erdogan that there's a price to be paid for his shenanigans.

The dreams of those who are Megali idea will fall into water again. Crusaders and jihadists will not be able to divide us, we are an honorable nation carrying the sword of secularism. Greece should not touch the house where Atatürk was born, more valuable for us than Ayasofya.

According to that logic, Americans can wipe out all of the Sacred Places in Hawaii since it's a part of America, so why not wipe everything out? If I buy a park with a Historic House, I have to maintain it. If a country inherits a Sacred Site, it's the country's duty to maintain said site to obtain the best results, which, in this case, is keeping the Hagia Sophia as a museum.

It is wrong to turn Ayasofya into a mosque, but it does not concern foreigners.

Does Turkey want other countries to recognize it? Does Turkey trade with other countries? If so, then it does concern foreigners. I can refuse to buy "made in..." products for any reason, including turning museums into Mosques. Also, I'm not calling for a great reconquest of Turkey, but simply suggesting that we utilize diplomacy to prevent Erdogan from talking about a tough guy he is internationally, when he's really not that tough.

Speaking of the House where Ataturk was born, it's actually a museum in Thessaloniki, so let's turn that into a Church. After all, if we're turning museums into Mosques, why not turn museums into Churches? Seems fair to me, and besides, I dated a girl from Thessaloniki once, she was pretty awesome, so if she's willing to, uhh... rekindle a mutually entertaining activity, I'd be down for going to Thessaloniki to aid with the planning. As James Bond said "oh the things I do for my country" - sometimes when your country calls, you gotta go to the movies.

[The Alma Mater]

He'd probably bar everyone from there, considering he's Erdogan.

Even Muslims? For what reason?

The "wrong" muslims ? Certainly. He is already waging a civil war against Gulenists.

[Phoenicaea]

byzantium would be great and appease to all people, so.

[Neuer Deutsches Reich]

The response to Erdogan turning a museum open to all religions into a place of worship for one religion should be for as many countries as possible to officially change Istanbul's name to Constantinople on their maps. Erdogan's doing this to pander to the extremist vote, and embarrassing Turkey like that will certainly show Erdogan that there's a price to be paid for his shenanigans.

The dreams of those who are Megali idea will fall into water again. Crusaders and jihadists will not be able to divide us, we are an honorable nation carrying the sword of secularism. Greece should not touch the house where Atatürk was born, more valuable for us than Ayasofya.

According to that logic, Americans can wipe out all of the Sacred Places in Hawaii since it's a part of America, so why not wipe everything out? If I buy a park with a Historic House, I have to maintain it. If a country inherits a Sacred Site, it's the country's duty to maintain said site to obtain the best results, which, in this case, is keeping the Hagia Sophia as a museum.

It is wrong to turn Ayasofya into a mosque, but it does not concern foreigners.

Great idea, I have been doing this for years already. Istanbul? Is Stan a bull? Nah I only know Constantinople.

Study geography lesson

It was a joke

[Repubblica Fascista Sociale Italiana]

The issue is far more nuanced than just "secularism destroyed." A good understanding of the issue also requires basic knowledge of internal Turkish politics, something that I’ve been interested in lately. Of course actual Turks on this thread know better than I do, but the basic overview is Turkish society is generally split between "Black Turks" and "White Turks." White Turks are secular Kemalists, generally living in the West near Istanbul/Constantinople and along the Aegean coast. They’re wealthier, aren’t very religious, and support the westernization of Turkey, and the rejection of old Ottoman ideas. Black Turks are generally poorer, living as farmers in Anatolia and the East, and tend to be more socially conservative, following Islamic ideas and doctrines in their daily lives.

For a long time since the foundation of the Republic, Black Turks have been disenfranchised from the Turkish political system, and the Turkish ruling class has been wealthy White Turks for decades. This has created a feeling of resentment among the Black Turks, who view the Kemalists as elitists. This is one of the main factors that lead to Erdogan, a self proclaimed Black Turk, to sweeping victory and popularity in Turkey. He basically gave hope to Black Turks in 2003 when he was first elected as PM.

[Vistulange]

The issue is far more nuanced than just "secularism destroyed." A good understanding of the issue also requires basic knowledge of internal Turkish politics, something that I’ve been interested in lately. Of course actual Turks on this thread know better than I do, but the basic overview is Turkish society is generally split between "Black Turks" and "White Turks." White Turks are secular Kemalists, generally living in the West near Istanbul/Constantinople and along the Aegean coast. They’re wealthier, aren’t very religious, and support the westernization of Turkey, and the rejection of old Ottoman ideas. Black Turks are generally poorer, living as farmers in Anatolia and the East, and tend to be more socially conservative, following Islamic ideas and doctrines in their daily lives.

For a long time since the foundation of the Republic, Black Turks have been disenfranchised from the Turkish political system, and the Turkish ruling class has been wealthy White Turks for decades. This has created a feeling of resentment among the Black Turks, who view the Kemalists as elitists. This is one of the main factors that lead to Erdogan, a self proclaimed Black Turk, to sweeping victory and popularity in Turkey. He basically gave hop to Black Turks in 2003 when he was first elected as PM.

I have to admit, I'm legitimately surprised a foreigner saw the "black Turk"-"white Turk" juxtaposition. By surprised, I mean "pleasantly surprised": the rhetoric surrounding it belies many of the problems within Turkish society. And yes, there is a direct analogy to US society in that comparison, an intentional one. Erdoğan and the AKP portrayed themselves (and of course, their constituents) as the (somewhat caricaturised, but intentionally so) equivalent of the African Americans in the US: Institutionally discriminated against, disliked, viewed as thieves/delinquents/etc., and so on. Of course, what followed from that reasoning was that these "black Turks" would finally be given a voice in Turkey, after decades of Kemalist rule.

In hindsight, the tragic thing is that Erdoğan and his ilk did have a point, in that the "old Turkey" did indeed repress a significant portion of the population, i.e. the conservative rural sections, in a manner far detached from what could be considered a militant democracy. It was very much a tutelary democracy, with not only the Armed Forces intervening in politics, but other actors as well, such as the Constitutional Court and civil society. One could argue that the intervention of the latter two groups is not necessarily anti-democratic, and I would indeed agree, but the general tendency to prohibit such movements from politics through extralegal means or means of questionable legality is, in my opinion, quite anti-democratic.

In its quest to quash all sorts of "reactionaryism", the Republic - since its inception in 1923 - took radical and sometimes unnecessarily harsh steps to quell dissent against the "secular Republic". The fact that this pretext was utilised by literally every military intervention only served to weaken the legitimacy of this pretext, therefore hurting the public perception against the "secular Republic" itself. Over time, the phrase "secular Republic" became synonymous with the "Kemalist elite" as opposed to a form of government, the state of being of the country, that everybody could accept.

Over the years, partially due to the utter disasters overseen by the CHP (and its affiliated parties such as the DSP) such as the "367 Crisis" and the e-memorandum of 2007 undertaken by the Armed Forces, the secular parties were increasingly perceived to be detached from the populace, seeking to preserve its power not by winning democratic elections, but instead through eliminating its opponents through non-democratic means. Again, tragically, these were not unfounded accusations. With the CHP detached from the people aside from the folks who lived on the Aegean and Mediterranean coasts, the MHP naturally being a smaller party (it never appealed to more than 16% of voters at a time) and the Kurdish parties often not running as parties but instead fielding candidates as independent candidates (the HDP changed this, and it had dramatic effects), the AKP handily won elections, every single time. The 49% votes they got all those years honestly weren't the work of fraud or cheating, but rather the result of a very solid and efficient grassroots organisation and effective messaging, while their opponents pretty much scratched their heads and contemplated their navels.

The decrease in popularity we're very, very clearly observing in the recent years is the direct result of the last point shifting. The AKP's grassroots organisation has gotten noticably sluggish, the shows of wealth by local leaders (wealth whose source itself is questionable) shows a remarkable detachment from the economic situation their constituents face, and the CHP has noticably gotten its act together by fielding very good candidates in the two metropolitan municipalities of Istanbul and Ankara, along with an extraordinarily efficient provincial organisation in Istanbul province headed by Canan Kaftancıoğlu.

Unable to undertake the necessary reforms to get the economy back in shape, such as restoring the rule of law, establishing transparency in the issuing of public tenders (such as the notorious use of an extraordinary clause in the Public Procurement Law, using "extraordinary means" for the simplest and non-urgent of procurements) and more prominently allowing the Central Bank independent action, the AKP is forced to fall back on increasing populism and polarisation. The move to allow prayers within Hagia Sophia is but one aspect of this. Of course, permitting prayers in the Hagia Sophia doesn't feed a family of four, nor do Turks vote, necessarily, for religious reasons. The secret behind the AKP's massive success is the massive growth and economic stability they oversaw between 2003-2015, not their politicisation of religion. This, of course, becomes problematic for them as newer generations start reaching the voting age: They do not have the memories of the economic, political, and social troubles of the 1990's, and thus the threatening rhetoric of "remember the 1990's, do you want to go back to those times?" rings incredibly hollow in that generation. They don't care about how good the AKP was for the country, but instead, they care about today: Youth employment is plummeting, fundamental freedoms are increasingly being curtailed, women are being killed without anything meaningful happening, and so on. The vote the AKP is getting from the youth (i.e. below 25 y/o) is dismal. Nor does this younger generation care about the Hagia Sophia, or about any mosque for that matter: a large-scale study conducted by KONDA put it out there that the younger generations are increasingly secular.

Finally, it's quite telling of the AKP's desperation that within one week, they went from "we will be going forth and engaging in a massive social media campaign to understand the youth" to "yeah no we're going to be severely restricting social media". They've lost their touch, badly, and it shows.

[Adamede]

I mean he might as well commit and declare himself Padishah of a new Turkish Empire, y'know at least make the 2020's interesting.

[Diarcesia]

I mean he might as well commit and declare himself Padishah of a new Turkish Empire, y'know at least make the 2020's interesting.

At least he wasn't Arab, or he wouldn't be able to dodge all those Badshah puns.