NationStates

He's high on his victory over russia in the proxy war.

The Reformed American Republic wrote:

South Reinkalistan wrote:Oh boy...

But yeah, no.

I'm not saying it would be a rational decision, but the Law and Justice Party and Erdogan seem insane enough to try.

Erdogan seems to me like the kind of guy who's employing Madman Theory to an extent. I think he's a whole lot more lucid than one would be initially lead to believe. An invasion of Greece isn't just irrational, it would be an international disaster on Turkey's part. Nobody would stand for it, and they'd end up being forced to withdraw.

Kargintina the Third wrote:1000% certain Erdogan wants the Ottoman Empire back

Sultan Vahdettin wants her period back because most of the Ottoman sultans were educated people

Valrifell wrote:

The Reformed American Republic wrote:Looks that way. I wonder if he will one day try to conquer more territory like the ottomans did before.

Isn't he occupying a part of Northern Syria right now?

Turkey is aiming to maintain its border security, but the wrong way (To collect votes)

>not returning it to an Orthodox church
bruh

Kargintina the Third wrote:

Valrifell wrote:
Isn't he occupying a part of Northern Syria right now?

The Syrian National Army does, which is essentially a Turkish puppet

Unfortunately, you're right

Dylar wrote:>not returning it to an Orthodox church
bruh

Hot take: make it a museum or something else, provided it's a wholly secular endeavour. Can't have religious bickering if religion is removed from the equation.

The OP is misleading on several counts.

1) I can find no reliable news story that states that Hagia Sophia is about to be turned into a mosque. Muslim prayers were allowed inside the museum on one recent occasion. Erdogan has now made noises about considering converting it into a mosque; he also 'urged the AKP members to be “very sensitive” about this and not to rush the works regarding the Hagia Sophia'. So it's very much an open question as to whether this is a definite step in turning the building back into a mosque, grandstanding to irritate Greece, or merely an attempt to curry favour with the AKP's religiously conservative base by talking about it is an open question (though the latter two aren't incompatible). It's also worth remembering that Istanbul mayor Ekrem İmamoğlu represents a Kemalist social-democratic opposition party, and may not be so keen to go along.

2) 'Hagia Ayasofya' is redundant; either call it 'Hagia Sophia' or 'Ayasofya'.

3) Since the building was turned into a mosque by the Ottoman Empire, and then stopped being a mosque a decade after the abolition of that empire, it's unclear how converting it into a mosque would 'harm Ottoman values'.


Make no mistake, it would cause me considerable anguish on a personal level if Hagia Sophia were to be converted in a mosque (a site for informal prayers by both Muslims and Christians I have less of an issue with), but I see nothing to confirm that this is definitely going to happen.

South Reinkalistan wrote:

Dylar wrote:>not returning it to an Orthodox church
bruh

Hot take: make it a museum or something else, provided it's a wholly secular endeavour. Can't have religious bickering if religion is removed from the equation.

That take was so hot that I almost suffered from a stroke.

South Reinkalistan wrote:

Dylar wrote:>not returning it to an Orthodox church
bruh

Hot take: make it a museum or something else, provided it's a wholly secular endeavour. Can't have religious bickering if religion is removed from the equation.

The most important thing is to damage the historical texture. they have neither respect for nature nor history.

South Reinkalistan wrote:

The Reformed American Republic wrote:Looks that way. I wonder if he will one day try to conquer more territory like the ottomans did before.

Glances at Syria nervously.

In all seriousness, though, that's not really gonna happen. The only expansion opportunities for Erdogan are the Balkans, Middle East, and Caucasus, all of which carry their own several degrees of "nope" when it comes to military occupation.

For some reason I imagine Viktor Orban hoping that he tries it...

South Reinkalistan wrote:

Dylar wrote:>not returning it to an Orthodox church
bruh

Hot take: make it a museum or something else, provided it's a wholly secular endeavour. Can't have religious bickering if religion is removed from the equation.

Really hot take: let Muslims pray there one day of the week, let Christians pray there one day of the week, and let it be a museum the rest of the week.

Crazy, ain't it?

The Two Jerseys wrote:For some reason I imagine Viktor Orban hoping that he tries it...

Of course. Anything to justify his continued clampdown on power, however flimsy such pretext may be.

The Two Jerseys wrote:

South Reinkalistan wrote:Hot take: make it a museum or something else, provided it's a wholly secular endeavour. Can't have religious bickering if religion is removed from the equation.

Really hot take: let Muslims pray there one day of the week, let Christians pray there one day of the week, and let it be a museum the rest of the week.

Crazy, ain't it?

No, because perpetuation of religious practices is bad.

The Two Jerseys wrote:

South Reinkalistan wrote:Really hot take: let Muslims pray there one day of the week, let Christians pray there one day of the week, and let it be a museum the rest of the week.

Crazy, ain't it?

This is disrespect for the values ​​of our founding leaders. It is wrong to use religious beliefs to collect votes

What Erdogan is doing is a form of symbolic conquest and cultural genocide. It is an insult to the Greeks and Christians who were conquered and subjugated at the hands of bloodthirsty Turkish Muslim conquerors many centuries ago. Hagia Sophia should either be open to all faiths or none. Muslims are permitted to pray at the Hagia Sophia, a Byzantine Greek Christian Orthodox cathedral that was conquered by Turkish Muslim jihadists, but Jews are forbidden from praying at the Temple Mount in Jerusalem because it "offends Muslim sensitivities" and "Palestine will be free"?

Fuck that and fuck Muslim supremacy, which is far more mainstream and socially accepted in the Muslim world than white supremacy is in America and Europe, hence the reason #InfidelLivesMatter in Muslim countries actually makes sense, whereas #BlackLivesMatter in America doesn't. Why should Muslims and Muslims alone get to trample over the rights and dignity of non-Muslims whom they have already conquered and subjugated in their part of the world, including my home country?

Infidel Lives Matter. ALL Lives Matter. I stand with Greece, Israel, and Europe against Turkish and Islamic cultural genocide, subjugation, persecution, and imperialism. Minorities across the Muslim world must rise up and demand equality and dignity before the law. But I fear that if we do so, the persecution against us will only intensify further. That's the difference between America and the Muslim world. One of them respects and upholds civil rights both officially and in practice. The other would rather infidels like us were wiped from the face of the Earth.

Kargintina the Third wrote:1000% certain Erdogan wants the Ottoman Empire back

Honestly? If he tries then the West has more than enough reason to revisit the Sevres Treaty. I’d love to see that day...

New Bremerton wrote:What Erdogan is doing is a form of symbolic conquest and cultural genocide. It is an insult to the Greeks and Christians who were conquered and subjugated at the hands of bloodthirsty Turkish Muslim conquerors many centuries ago. Hagia Sophia should either be open to all faiths or none. Muslims are permitted to pray at the Hagia Sophia, a Byzantine Greek Christian Orthodox cathedral that was conquered by Turkish Muslim jihadists, but Jews are forbidden from praying at the Temple Mount in Jerusalem because it "offends Muslim sensitivities" and "Palestine will be free"?

Fuck that and fuck Muslim supremacy, which is far more mainstream and socially accepted in the Muslim world than white supremacy is in America and Europe, hence the reason #InfidelLivesMatter in Muslim countries actually makes sense, whereas #BlackLivesMatter in America doesn't. Why should Muslims and Muslims alone get to trample over the rights and dignity of non-Muslims whom they have already conquered and subjugated in their part of the world, including my home country?

Infidel Lives Matter. ALL Lives Matter. I stand with Greece, Israel, and Europe against Turkish and Islamic cultural genocide, subjugation, persecution, and imperialism. Minorities across the Muslim world must rise up and demand equality and dignity before the law. But I fear that if we do so, the persecution against us will only intensify further. That's the difference between America and the Muslim world. One of them respects and upholds civil rights both officially and in practice. The other would rather infidels like us were wiped from the face of the Earth.

What's with the random shoehorning of the BLM protests into this?

New Bremerton wrote:What Erdogan is doing is a form of symbolic conquest and cultural genocide. It is an insult to the Greeks and Christians who were conquered and subjugated at the hands of bloodthirsty Turkish Muslim conquerors many centuries ago. Hagia Sophia should either be open to all faiths or none. Muslims are permitted to pray at the Hagia Sophia, a Byzantine Greek Christian Orthodox cathedral that was conquered by Turkish Muslim jihadists, but Jews are forbidden from praying at the Temple Mount in Jerusalem because it "offends Muslim sensitivities" and "Palestine will be free"?

Fuck that and fuck Muslim supremacy, which is far more mainstream and socially accepted in the Muslim world than white supremacy is in America and Europe, hence the reason #InfidelLivesMatter in Muslim countries actually makes sense, whereas #BlackLivesMatter in America doesn't. Why should Muslims and Muslims alone get to trample over the rights and dignity of non-Muslims whom they have already conquered and subjugated in their part of the world, including my home country?

Infidel Lives Matter. ALL Lives Matter. I stand with Greece, Israel, and Europe against Turkish and Islamic cultural genocide, subjugation, persecution, and imperialism. Minorities across the Muslim world must rise up and demand equality and dignity before the law. But I fear that if we do so, the persecution against us will only intensify further. That's the difference between America and the Muslim world. One of them respects and upholds civil rights both officially and in practice. The other would rather infidels like us were wiped from the face of the Earth.

Agreed. Even as an atheist, it sickens me to see such an anti-Christian display while anything of the sort against the Ummah would cause the vain Caucasian liberals of the West to riot and burn shite.

Britannia Maior wrote:Agreed. Even as an atheist, it sickens me to see such an anti-Christian display while anything of the sort against the Ummah would cause the vain Caucasian liberals of the West to riot and burn shite.

This is why religion is, by and large, an archaic construct best consigned to irrelevancy.

South Reinkalistan wrote:

Britannia Maior wrote:Agreed. Even as an atheist, it sickens me to see such an anti-Christian display while anything of the sort against the Ummah would cause the vain Caucasian liberals of the West to riot and burn shite.

This is why religion is, by and large, an archaic construct best consigned to irrelevancy.

I don’t disagree, but I personally prefer nations maintain a sliver of religious tradition - to keep the nations grounded in where they come from and their own histories. But just that - a sliver. Anything more is deserving of close inspection and whatnot, if not being dragged back to it’s better place.

Of course, with countries where religion has become toxic and dangerously zealous, then I wouldn’t be against ousting it completely.

Britannia Maior wrote:

South Reinkalistan wrote:This is why religion is, by and large, an archaic construct best consigned to irrelevancy.

I don’t disagree, but I personally prefer nations maintain a sliver of religious tradition - to keep the nations grounded in where they come from and their own histories. But just that - a sliver. Anything more is deserving of close inspection and whatnot, if not being dragged back to it’s better place.

Of course, with countries where religion has become toxic and dangerously zealous, then I wouldn’t be against ousting it completely.

Tradition is worth nothing, frankly. Historical sentimentality essentially constitutes pitiful and redundant rose-tinted fits of hindsight, and it is what drags society backwards. It matters not what came before us; it is what's yet to come that we must turn our gaze towards. Where nations 'come from' is irrelevant. Where they are going -- that's what matters.

A failing autocrat tries to consolidate his power base by appealing to delusions of grandeur? Never heard that one before.

With that being said, I know I'm gonna sound a bit dickish to Turkey as a whole rather than just Erdogan here, but isn't the fact that the Turkish state in this day and age is still celebrating the violent takeover of a foreign people and their architectonic marvel with a national holiday kinda...I don't know, lame in itself, worship or no worship?

the matter is not hagia sophia other than symbolic, the matter is the tyrant and the anti-republican regime he imposed on his own ruled country.

Unstoppable Empire of Doom wrote:He's high on his victory over russia in the proxy war.

What victory? Assad has taken back almost all of Syria.

South Reinkalistan wrote:

Dylar wrote:>not returning it to an Orthodox church
bruh

Hot take: make it a museum or something else, provided it's a wholly secular endeavour. Can't have religious bickering if religion is removed from the equation.

" Cant be racist if there is only one race " - some german guy probably...

Joohan wrote:

South Reinkalistan wrote:Hot take: make it a museum or something else, provided it's a wholly secular endeavour. Can't have religious bickering if religion is removed from the equation.

" Cant be racist if there is only one race " - some german Austrian guy probably...

FTFY

Joohan wrote:

South Reinkalistan wrote:Hot take: make it a museum or something else, provided it's a wholly secular endeavour. Can't have religious bickering if religion is removed from the equation.

" Cant be racist if there is only one race " - some german guy probably...

Rather, it's impossible to be racist if we refuse to recognise racial distinctions as a basis for discrimination. Y'know, like how secular institutes refuse to see religious distinctions or beliefs as basis for discrimination...?