Erdogan turns Ayasofya museum into a place of worship

[-Astoria]

In the first moment that Ayasofya may become a mosque instead of a museum, all Byzantine mosaics will be destroyed just because they're non-Muslim art. The Sultan Mehmet Fatih didn't destroy that piece of art but painting the walls with a new color over. However the next dictators who may come from now forward in Turkey will go beyond the normal limits. When the world falls in darkness every piece of art won't matter, whatever if Ayasofya or a Da-Vinci painting. All mosaics of Ayasofya will be destroyed by a Turkish hammer, I'm sure of that if that is no longer a museum.

Erdogan wants to turn Turkey into a Turkish paradise. In case you all didn't know, that means it would be hell for most other people since Turkish supremacy=genocide and the destruction of other cultures and their histories.

Something something Armenian denial.

[DACOROMANIA]

Erdogan really took Turkey backwards.

In the first moment that Ayasofya may become a mosque instead of a museum, all Byzantine mosaics will be destroyed just because they're non-Muslim art. The Sultan Mehmet Fatih didn't destroy that piece of art but painting the walls with a new color over. However the next dictators who may come from now forward in Turkey will go beyond the normal limits. When the world falls in darkness every piece of art won't matter, whatever if Ayasofya or a Da-Vinci painting. All mosaics of Ayasofya will be destroyed by a Turkish hammer, I'm sure of that if that is no longer a museum.

Erdogan wants to turn Turkey into a Turkish paradise. In case you all didn't know, that means it would be hell for most other people since Turkish supremacy=genocide and the destruction of other cultures and their histories.

History repeats further. See the case of Syria. Different dictators on a common path view. A third of Turkey is already going secessionist - the Kurds.
First it begun with Iraq then Syria. It may continue with Turkey. After ISIS invades Turkey, the Balkans will burn along with armed invasions from Russia and Hungary. Europe may experience economic crisis if Hungary gets involved along with Russia in new wars. Fascists and Neonazis may rise up again in elections and in powers. Kurds will join ISIS. Racism, genocides and plagues everywhere. CoronaVirus or other will spread again at higher levels than ever. This is a potential future that may happen.

[Vistulange]

In the first moment that Ayasofya may become a mosque instead of a museum, all Byzantine mosaics will be destroyed just because they're non-Muslim art. The Sultan Mehmet Fatih didn't destroy that piece of art but painting the walls with a new color over. However the next dictators who may come from now forward in Turkey will go beyond the normal limits. When the world falls in darkness every piece of art won't matter, whatever if Ayasofya or a Da-Vinci painting. All mosaics of Ayasofya will be destroyed by a Turkish hammer, I'm sure of that if that is no longer a museum.

Erdogan wants to turn Turkey into a Turkish paradise. In case you all didn't know, that means it would be hell for most other people since Turkish supremacy=genocide and the destruction of other cultures and their histories.

Erdogan really took Turkey backwards.

Erdogan wants to turn Turkey into a Turkish paradise. In case you all didn't know, that means it would be hell for most other people since Turkish supremacy=genocide and the destruction of other cultures and their histories.

History repeats further. See the case of Syria. Different dictators on a common path view. A third of Turkey is already going secessionist - the Kurds.
First it begun with Iraq then Syria. It may continue with Turkey. After ISIS invades Turkey, the Balkans will burn along with armed invasions from Russia and Hungary. Europe may experience economic crisis if Hungary gets involved along with Russia in new wars. Fascists and Neonazis may rise up again in elections and in powers. Kurds will join ISIS. Racism, genocides and plagues everywhere. CoronaVirus or other will spread again at higher levels than ever. This is a potential future that may happen.

Are you lot done with the nonsense?

Rojava, we've been over this before. You seem intent on ignoring it.

Erdoğan has no ambitions whatsoever to "turn Turkey into a Turkish paradise". Erdoğan literally has no ambition other than to remain in power for as long as he can. If that means kowtowing to the MHP, appointing Interior Ministers such as Süleyman Soylu, or using the word "Alevi" as though the word itself was a slur, so be it. And - more importantly - if that means he shall kowtow to the HDP, forbid any military engagement against PKK militants literally walking around in the streets of Diyarbakır and Hakkari with their guns out in the open, allow PKK militants to establish roadblocks and check ID's, once more, so be it.

Both of these have occurred. The latter between 2013-2015, the former between 2015 and the present. Back then, Erdoğan was puffing with pride about not being Turkish, but rather being Georgian, he was also boasting about having "trampled [Turkish] nationalism beneath [his] feet". Those who denounced him for allowing the PKK free rein in the Southeast - his current partners, ironically - were branded warmongerers who wanted to see soldiers die.

Erdoğan is an opportunist, nothing more. If he decides that the benefit of playing to the Kurdish vote and the left-wing is more than the cost of abandoning the nationalist vote and base, coalescing around Interior Minister Süleyman Soylu and the MHP, he will do that in the blink of an eye.

[Panslavicland]

Turkey is a sovereign country, if they want to turn a museum into a mosque or a mosque into a museum that should be their decision, not the globalists at UNESCO or any other organisation that presumes to tell people what they can or can't do in their own country.

[-Astoria]

Turkey is a sovereign country, if they want to turn a museum into a mosque or a mosque into a museum that should be their decision, not the globalists at UNESCO or any other organisation that presumes to tell people what they can or can't do in their own country.

Everyone, drink!

[Unstoppable Empire of Doom]

Turkish military assistance has essentially reversed haftars gains in libya. Erdogan isnt only fighting this out in Syria.

Syria is the one Russia cares about. Libya's more for entertainment. If the Russians wanted to seriously damage Erdogan's proxies in Libya, it wouldn't be an issue. If he's high on Libya that's... it's like when you're playing basketball with your friend, you crush him 60-30, but he's gloating about making one more three point shot than you.

Yes. We are talking about Erdogan. Welcome to the discussion.

[Gormwood]

Turkey needs Zombie Ataturk now.

[Risottia]

After ISIS invades Turkey,

Won't happen because ISIS and Turkey share too many strategic goals. Like wiping out the Kurds for one.

the Balkans will burn along with armed invasions from Russia and Hungary.

Russia can't invade the Balkans. And if Hungary were to try anything funny, it would fall in the matter of a couple of weeks due to the combination of economic crisis (due to it being embargoed by all the EU) and airstrikes from the rest of NATO.

Europe may experience economic crisis if Hungary gets involved along with Russia in new wars.

Europe is already experiencing an economic crisis because of the Covid pandemic. Losing Hungary wouldn't be a major blow of any sort to the European economy.

Fascists and Neonazis may rise up again in elections and in powers.

They already have but they cannot get hold of power. Even in Hungary they sit on the opposition.

Kurds will join ISIS.

Totally, who wouldn't love to join the same ones who raped, enslaved and killed their families.

May I have the address of your pusher?

[The East Marches II]

Turkey needs Zombie Ataturk now.

Too bad people like you cried about the jackboot and made Erodgan the champion of democracy. GG no re. Thanks Gauth, another win!

[Audioslavia]

Turkey needs Zombie Ataturk now.

Too bad people like you cried about the jackboot and made Erodgan the champion of democracy. GG no re. Thanks Gauth, another win!

*** 7-day ban, trolling ***

At some point you'll realise that jumping into a thread to flail at someone you don't like isn't the best use of your time.

[Agarntrop]

Turkey is a sovereign country, if they want to turn a museum into a mosque or a mosque into a museum that should be their decision, not the globalists at UNESCO or any other organisation that presumes to tell people what they can or can't do in their own country.

just because they should be able to dosent mean they should

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

I don’t agree with Erdogan’s decision but let me clarify that Hagia Sofia in its origins was always a place of worship, having been both a basilica and a mosque.

[Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum]

I don’t agree with Erdogan’s decision but let me clarify that Hagia Sofia in its origins was always a place of worship, having been both a basilica and a mosque.

There are mosques all over Turkey and that I was bored.Ayasofya should remain as a museum.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

I don’t agree with Erdogan’s decision but let me clarify that Hagia Sofia in its origins was always a place of worship, having been both a basilica and a mosque.

There are mosques all over Turkey and that I was bored.Ayasofya should remain as a museum.

You were bored? Ok, I’m not sure what that has to do with anything I wrote but ok.

Also, did I say that Hagia Sofia shouldn’t remain a museum?

[Ard al Islam]

I've never heard this, and I doubt it's true, but if so, then great.

[Panslavicland]

Turkey is a sovereign country, if they want to turn a museum into a mosque or a mosque into a museum that should be their decision, not the globalists at UNESCO or any other organisation that presumes to tell people what they can or can't do in their own country.

just because they should be able to dosent mean they should

Of course. I'm just saying that the decision belongs to the elected Turkish government, not to unelected globalist bureaucrats.

[South Reinkalistan]

elected Turkish government

thonk

[-Astoria]

just because they should be able to dosent mean they should

Of course. I'm just saying that the decision belongs to the elected Turkish government, not to unelected globalist bureaucrats.

God, I think I need yet another bingo card.

[Senkaku]

won't this mess up the gilded ceiling mosaics or am i thinking of a diff mosque

[Neuer Deutsches Reich]

The once center of the Orthodox faith now being turned into a mosque, simply horrible.

[Senkaku]

The once center of the Orthodox faith now being turned into a mosque, simply horrible.

it has been nobody's business but the turks for like 500 years, maybe the orthodox church should've helped spring for those romanian cannons way back when

[-Astoria]

The once center of the Orthodox faith now being turned into a mosque, simply horrible.

...except they're only considering to do so (ie pandering), but it's unlikely to happen.

[The Archregimancy]

won't this mess up the gilded ceiling mosaics or am i thinking of a diff mosque

There are few visible ceiling mosaics in Hagia Sophia; or at least in the main body of the structure; most of the remaining mosaics are wall mosaics (though there are some exceptions, such as the Virgin mosaic in the apse, and some of the side galleries have ceiling mosaics). The 1840s restoration by the Fossati Brothers did produce a sketch of what purports to be the mosaic of Christ Pantocrator under the main dome, but if it's still there it hasn't otherwise been seen since 1453, and no one has subsequently confirmed or denied its presence.

See this earlier post in the thread, though it's important to stress that this isn't actually happening. The thread title and OP are deeply misleading, and as several people throughout the thread have pointed out, Erdogan's statements were political posturing that the civic authorities in Istanbul have essentially ignored, and not a practical plan for changing the building's use.

Ah I seem to have misunderstood the source I linked earlier then, if what you say is true.

Speaking of the mosaics however, which is the real issue, would it not be that converting the Hagia Sofia back into a functioning Mosque would necessitate the removal/covering of the Byzantine era artwork?

That was my assumption given that most of them were only uncovered after the building became a museum.

We don't know unless there are firm proposals; and, as Vistulange notes, there are no firm proposals because this was always more about political posturing rather than a serious suggestion.

But looking at this hypothetically...

The main issues from a Muslim perspective would be the apse mosaic of the Virgin, the northern tympanum mosaics of various saints, and the Imperial Door mosaic of an emperor venerating Christ. The surviving faces of the central dome supporting seraphim were only revealed as recently as 2009, and could simply have their faces covered again, as per Ottoman practice. The mosaics in the Upper Gallery interiors are largely not visible from the central worship space, so wouldn't potentially be as problematic. I imagine the main point of contention in the upper galleries would be the 13th-century Deësis mosaic. Its overt Christian themes could lead to stricter Muslims contesting its presence in a mosque, even in the galleries; but it's also one of the great masterpieces of medieval European art. It's very difficult to see how that could ever be covered up without causing a storm of international outrage. And it's precisely that sort of difficulty that helps to explain why it's very, very unlikely to ever be turned into a mosque again; unless Turkey is taken over by real radical Muslims rather than a posturing authoritarian populist who cloaks himself in Islam as a political tool.

For what it's worth, the best surviving Byzantine mosaics - and frescoes - in Istanbul are at the Chora Church / Kariye Museum:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chora_Church

In 2019, the Turkish Council of State did order the reconversion of the Chora into a Mosque - which given the artistic importance of the mosaics and frescoes is a far, far greater potential loss to the shared artistic heritage of the Mediterranean world than Hagia Sophia. Last I heard, the status of the Chora was in limbo, with the court ruling in place, but Erdogan not actually giving the order.


And then there's the other Hagia Sophia, in Trabzon / Trebizond, though technically this dates to the post-Fourth Crusade Empire of Trebizond rather than the Byzantine Empire. Here the religious authorities won a 2012 court case to convert the museum into a mosque. They began to hold prayers in the building, and covered up some of the surviving Christian art with curtains and carpets. However, the local professional architects' organisation counter-sued, a judge ruled against the religious authorities, and it was turned into a museum again.


You may notice a common thread. In each case, Erdogan and/or his supporters make a lot of sound and fury about converting the sites into mosques, and nibble around the protections offered to former religious sites that were turned into museums in the first two decades of the Turkish Republic - in the case of Trabzon's Hagia Sophia, even briefly began the process - but always stop short of taking the final step. That doesn't mean we should be complacent, but it does suggest that there's a lot of willingness to engage in political chest-thumping over the sites, but even more reluctance to actually do something about it.

[Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum]

Turkish Armenian Patriarch proposed Ayasofya to be a place of worship for Christians.Ayasofya should not be a mosque or church, it should remain a museum

[Rojava Free State]

Erdogan really took Turkey backwards.

Erdogan wants to turn Turkey into a Turkish paradise. In case you all didn't know, that means it would be hell for most other people since Turkish supremacy=genocide and the destruction of other cultures and their histories.

History repeats further. See the case of Syria. Different dictators on a common path view. A third of Turkey is already going secessionist - the Kurds.
First it begun with Iraq then Syria. It may continue with Turkey. After ISIS invades Turkey, the Balkans will burn along with armed invasions from Russia and Hungary. Europe may experience economic crisis if Hungary gets involved along with Russia in new wars. Fascists and Neonazis may rise up again in elections and in powers. Kurds will join ISIS. Racism, genocides and plagues everywhere. CoronaVirus or other will spread again at higher levels than ever. This is a potential future that may happen.

More likely than not, Mad Max will become reality.