Erdogan turns Ayasofya museum into a place of worship

[Jedi Council]

It was deteriorating long before it became a museum, the thing was built almost 1500 years ago.

And there is nothing stopping people, as far as I am aware, from praying there. They just do not hold traditional services regularly.

To change it back into a Mosque would also likely require a massive amount of interior work, such as the covering of numerous Byzantine era mosaics.

IIRC it was restored in mid-1800s and didn't really start deteriorating until the 20th century, after it became a museum. I mean, that shouldn't be surprising. The Ottomans were willing to spend large amounts for their capital's largest mosque. For Ataturk and his posse of secular followers, it was just a museum.

And changing it to a mosque won't stop tourists from visiting it.

Tourists likely would still go but it would destroy the unique blend of christian and islamic cultures that makes it so beautiful. Having been there myself, I can assure you that one of its greatest charms is not only its size and architecture but the juxtaposition of Byzantine and Islamic art styles.

If the inhabitants of Istanbul and people of Turkey want to make it into a mosque, it absolutely should. UNESCO would be irresponsible and utterly in the wrong to block it imo.

UNESCO has every right. World Heritage Sites are recognized monuments whose meaning transcends national borders, and are protected by international law.

Turkey cannot expect to benefit from UNESCO membership, nor from the Hagia Sofia's privileged status as a World Heritage Site, if they do not follow the treaties they signed on to when they joined UNESCO in the first place.

[-Astoria]

If the inhabitants of Istanbul and people of Turkey want to make it into a mosque, it absolutely should. UNESCO would be irresponsible and utterly in the wrong to block it imo.

That's a big if.

[East Blepia]

Speaking on the 567th anniversary of the conquest of Istanbul, erdogan said that the Ayasofya Museum will be reopened for worship.What are your thoughts on this subject ?

I think that it should be reopened but only if both Muslim and Christian services are held and the building's multi-religious atmosphere is respected. Now that i think of it the Hagia Sophia really is a great format for a 'multi-faith space'. Most ones I see online (at universities, airports, &c.) are all bleak and blocky. The Hagia Sophia combines design elements from Byzantine iconography and church-building with Islamic calligraphy and minarets and in my opinion it really is something to see. Having it used as a museum is sort of like saying 'Ha - ha - ha, look at these people who used to practice religion and good architecture, ha - ha - ha, how funny is that, we should put it on display like it's part of history.'

[Jack Thomas Lang]

Tourists likely would still go but it would destroy the unique blend of christian and islamic cultures that makes it so beautiful. Having been there myself, I can assure you that one of its greatest charms is not only its size and architecture but the juxtaposition of Byzantine and Islamic art styles.

I've been to the Hagia Sophia. Frankly, I was not a fan. The mixture of fading Byzantine wall paintings, the isolated elements of Islamic symbolism, the throng of tourists trudging around the place just oozed decadence and decay rather than "charm". I should clarify I'm talking about the interior. It remains architecturally impressive from the outside as always.

That is not to say decay can't have its charm. I can't recall the name, but there's a small town in France with a somewhat worse for wear Cathedral that I very much enjoyed. It was very solemn, reminded me of the march of time and my own mortality. The Hagia Sophia is just sad.

UNESCO has every right. World Heritage Sites are recognized monuments whose meaning transcends national borders, and are protected by international law.

Turkey cannot expect to benefit from UNESCO membership, nor from the Hagia Sofia's privileged status as a World Heritage Site, if they do not follow the treaties they signed on to when they joined UNESCO in the first place.

UNESCO may have the right to block it, but I think even they'd have to realise how absurd it is to deny a hypothetical restoration of the Hagia Sophia to its century-long purpose as an "attack on its cultural heritage", especially since the change would not even prevent the world from accessing it.

[Risottia]

If the inhabitants of Istanbul and people of Turkey want to make it into a mosque, it absolutely should. UNESCO would be irresponsible and utterly in the wrong to block it imo.

UNESCO cannot block it.
It can remove its recognition as World Heritage Site, and stop funding it.

[Jedi Council]

If the inhabitants of Istanbul and people of Turkey want to make it into a mosque, it absolutely should. UNESCO would be irresponsible and utterly in the wrong to block it imo.

UNESCO cannot block it.
It can remove its recognition as World Heritage Site, and stop funding it.

I believe it can, though you are correct in saying Erodgan could just leave UNESCO and do it.

In any case, the threat of removing the UNESCO funding, and all that comes with the World Heritage Site title, should be a pretty big deterrent

[South Reinkalistan]

Speaking on the 567th anniversary of the conquest of Istanbul, erdogan said that the Ayasofya Museum will be reopened for worship.What are your thoughts on this subject ?

I think that it should be reopened but only if both Muslim and Christian services are held and the building's multi-religious atmosphere is respected. Now that i think of it the Hagia Sophia really is a great format for a 'multi-faith space'. Most ones I see online (at universities, airports, &c.) are all bleak and blocky. The Hagia Sophia combines design elements from Byzantine iconography and church-building with Islamic calligraphy and minarets and in my opinion it really is something to see. Having it used as a museum is sort of like saying 'Ha - ha - ha, look at these people who used to practice religion and good architecture, ha - ha - ha, how funny is that, we should put it on display like it's part of history.'

Though it is a part of history, is it not?

[Jedi Council]

Tourists likely would still go but it would destroy the unique blend of christian and islamic cultures that makes it so beautiful. Having been there myself, I can assure you that one of its greatest charms is not only its size and architecture but the juxtaposition of Byzantine and Islamic art styles.

I've been to the Hagia Sophia. Frankly, I was not a fan. The mixture of fading Byzantine wall paintings, the isolated elements of Islamic symbolism, the throng of tourists trudging around the place just oozed decadence and decay rather than "charm". I should clarify I'm talking about the interior. It remains architecturally impressive from the outside as always.

That is not to say decay can't have its charm. I can't recall the name, but there's a small town in France with a somewhat worse for wear Cathedral that I very much enjoyed. It was very solemn, reminded me of the march of time and my own mortality. The Hagia Sophia is just sad.

UNESCO has every right. World Heritage Sites are recognized monuments whose meaning transcends national borders, and are protected by international law.

Turkey cannot expect to benefit from UNESCO membership, nor from the Hagia Sofia's privileged status as a World Heritage Site, if they do not follow the treaties they signed on to when they joined UNESCO in the first place.

UNESCO may have the right to block it, but I think even they'd have to realise how absurd it is to deny a hypothetical restoration of the Hagia Sophia to its century-long purpose as an "attack on its cultural heritage", especially since the change would not even prevent the world from accessing it.

Eh, to each their own, I found the Hagia Sofia to be pretty magnificent.

As to the second point, UNESCO is made up of alot of Christian countries; the idea of Byzantine masterpieces being hidden and covered back up probably does not appeal to them very much.

Not to mention how pissed off the Greeks would be.

[Jedi Council]

I think that it should be reopened but only if both Muslim and Christian services are held and the building's multi-religious atmosphere is respected. Now that i think of it the Hagia Sophia really is a great format for a 'multi-faith space'. Most ones I see online (at universities, airports, &c.) are all bleak and blocky. The Hagia Sophia combines design elements from Byzantine iconography and church-building with Islamic calligraphy and minarets and in my opinion it really is something to see. Having it used as a museum is sort of like saying 'Ha - ha - ha, look at these people who used to practice religion and good architecture, ha - ha - ha, how funny is that, we should put it on display like it's part of history.'

Though it is a part of history, is it not?

Not to mention the many, many, many places of worship that function as Museums.

[Vistulange]

There shouldn't even be a thread on this.

It's simply the AKP posturing to its base amid a growing economic malaise exacerbated by the global pandemic and growing voter dissatisfaction. Predictably, when pushed on the issue, they backpedaled. Miraculously, the opposition knew better than to try and preach about "UNESCO", "World Heritage", and all that lovey-dovey stuff the average AKP voter gives precisely no shits about, but instead just called the AKP's bluff.

Speaking on the 567th anniversary of the conquest of Istanbul, erdogan said that the Ayasofya Museum will be reopened for worship.What are your thoughts on this subject ?

I think that it should be reopened but only if both Muslim and Christian services are held and the building's multi-religious atmosphere is respected. Now that i think of it the Hagia Sophia really is a great format for a 'multi-faith space'. Most ones I see online (at universities, airports, &c.) are all bleak and blocky. The Hagia Sophia combines design elements from Byzantine iconography and church-building with Islamic calligraphy and minarets and in my opinion it really is something to see. Having it used as a museum is sort of like saying 'Ha - ha - ha, look at these people who used to practice religion and good architecture, ha - ha - ha, how funny is that, we should put it on display like it's part of history.'

It is a part of history.

[The Archregimancy]

It was deteriorating long before it became a museum, the thing was built almost 1500 years ago.

And there is nothing stopping people, as far as I am aware, from praying there. They just do not hold traditional services regularly.

To change it back into a Mosque would also likely require a massive amount of interior work, such as the covering of numerous Byzantine era mosaics.

IIRC it was restored in mid-1800s and didn't really start deteriorating until the 20th century, after it became a museum. I mean, that shouldn't be surprising. The Ottomans were willing to spend large amounts on their capital's largest mosque. For Ataturk and his posse of secular followers, it was just a museum.

You don't quite recall correctly; you're not wholly wrong, but there are elements of your post that are misleading.

1) Hagia Sophia has 'deteriorated' and been restored several times; the history is complex. The first major restoration was as early as 558, when the first dome collapsed a mere 20 years after completion. It was severely damaged in 989, 1204 and 1453 - and suffered less significant damage on several other occasions. So we shouldn't think this is a static monument that's only relatively recently 'deteriorated'.

2) You're correct that it was restored in the mid-1800s - in 1847 by the Italian Fossati brothers. However, like many 19th-century restorations of major artworks/buildings, many of their 'restorations' are controversial today; and with both Muslims and Christians. This isn't the place for a full digression on the Fossati restoration, but things like standardising the height of the minarets and their inconsistent approach to the mosaics in the upper galleries wouldn't pass muster in a modern restoration.

3) The Turkish Republic hasn't really neglected Hagia Sophia as badly as your post suggests. That's not to suggest that it couldn't benefit from some considerable love, but a major dome stabilisation project funded by the World Monuments Fund took place either side of the turn of the century. This was undertaken with the full involvement of the Turkish Ministry of Culture, and was also used as an opportunity to train Turkish conservators in how to approach the conservation of Byzantine mosaics. The issue hasn't necessarily been a lack of willingness to conserve the building, but rather a lack of money and expertise. Hagia Sophia is an incredibly complex structure. And then there are the genuinely politically tricky conservation decisions that no previous Turkish government has wanted to touch and/or address. For example, after the recent dome work, they must know if Christ Pantocrator is still up there, hidden by whitewash and paint....

If the inhabitants of Istanbul and people of Turkey want to make it into a mosque, it absolutely should. UNESCO would be irresponsible and utterly in the wrong to block it imo.

UNESCO has every right. World Heritage Sites are recognized monuments whose meaning transcends national borders, and are protected by international law.

Turkey cannot expect to benefit from UNESCO membership, nor from the Hagia Sofia's privileged status as a World Heritage Site, if they do not follow the treaties they signed on to when they joined UNESCO in the first place.

There is absolutely nothing UNESCO can do to block the transformation of Hagia Sophia into a functioning mosque.

The most they could do is threaten to delist it from the World Heritage list. But on what basis? Hagia Sophia doesn't sit on the list independently. It's part of the group Historic Areas of Istanbul listing which includes both Byzantine and Ottoman sites, including several sites that are active mosques, and mosques that were previously Byzantine churches. As the UNESCO listing notes 'finding a balance between change and preservation is a delicate issue in the Historic Areas', but there's nothing that precludes changing the use of any of the historic sites so long as conservation principles are otherwise adhered to. 'The impressive skyline of the Historic Peninsula with the Topkapı Palace, Hagia Sophia and Süleymaniye is preserved by planning measures'; super, but then no one is proposing tearing Hagia Sophia down, are they?

Anyway, as those of us who've worked on UNESCO World Heritage Sites know, UNESCO has no enforcement provision other than wobbly moral authority. UNESCO sites are only protected by the laws of the listing country and the prestige of being on the UNESCO World Heritage list. The threat of delisting didn't save the Oman Arabian Oryx sanctuary (delisted 2007) or the Dresden Elbe Valley in Germany (delisted 2009). Nor did it stop the partial delisting of the Bagrati Cathedral/Gelati Monastery in Georgia in 2017; the monastery was kept on, but the cathedral was taken off after the ruined and partially roofless 11th-century cathedral was restored into a fully functioning religious site. But that's not what's being proposed with Hagia Sophia; the fabric of the structure wouldn't significantly change, only its internal use (assuming they leave the mosaics untouched; that would be an issue). So again, what's the basis for delisting Hagia Sophia if it becomes an active mosque?

I desperately don't want it to become a mosque; but let's be a bit more realistic about UNESCO's role in that discussion.

[The Archregimancy]

There shouldn't even be a thread on this.

It's simply the AKP posturing to its base amid a growing economic malaise exacerbated by the global pandemic and growing voter dissatisfaction. Predictably, when pushed on the issue, they backpedaled. Miraculously, the opposition knew better than to try and preach about "UNESCO", "World Heritage", and all that lovey-dovey stuff the average AKP voter gives precisely no shits about, but instead just called the AKP's bluff.'

One of the more realistic and measured posts in the thread, thank you.

[Jack Thomas Lang]

-snip-

I'm not going lie Arch, I was waiting for you to swoop in and correct me.

[Jedi Council]

IIRC it was restored in mid-1800s and didn't really start deteriorating until the 20th century, after it became a museum. I mean, that shouldn't be surprising. The Ottomans were willing to spend large amounts on their capital's largest mosque. For Ataturk and his posse of secular followers, it was just a museum.

You don't quite recall correctly; you're not wholly wrong, but there are elements of your post that are misleading.

1) Hagia Sophia has 'deteriorated' and been restored several times; the history is complex. The first major restoration was as early as 558, when the first dome collapsed a mere 20 years after completion. It was severely damaged in 989, 1204 and 1453 - and suffered less significant damage on several other occasions. So we shouldn't think this is a static monument that's only relatively recently 'deteriorated'.

2) You're correct that it was restored in the mid-1800s - in 1847 by the Italian Fossati brothers. However, like many 19th-century restorations of major artworks/buildings, many of their 'restorations' are controversial today; and with both Muslims and Christians. This isn't the place for a full digression on the Fossati restoration, but things like standardising the height of the minarets and their inconsistent approach to the mosaics in the upper galleries wouldn't pass muster in a modern restoration.

3) The Turkish Republic hasn't really neglected Hagia Sophia as badly as your post suggests. That's not to suggest that it couldn't benefit from some considerable love, but a major dome stabilisation project funded by the World Monuments Fund took place either side of the turn of the century. This was undertaken with the full involvement of the Turkish Ministry of Culture, and was also used as an opportunity to train Turkish conservators in how to approach the conservation of Byzantine mosaics. The issue hasn't necessarily been a lack of willingness to conserve the building, but rather a lack of money and expertise. Hagia Sophia is an incredibly complex structure. And then there are the genuinely politically tricky conservation decisions that no previous Turkish government has wanted to touch and/or address. For example, after the recent dome work, they must know if Christ Pantocrator is still up there, hidden by whitewash and paint....

UNESCO has every right. World Heritage Sites are recognized monuments whose meaning transcends national borders, and are protected by international law.

Turkey cannot expect to benefit from UNESCO membership, nor from the Hagia Sofia's privileged status as a World Heritage Site, if they do not follow the treaties they signed on to when they joined UNESCO in the first place.

There is absolutely nothing UNESCO can do to block the transformation of Hagia Sophia into a functioning mosque.

The most they could do is threaten to delist it from the World Heritage list. But on what basis? Hagia Sophia doesn't sit on the list independently. It's part of the group Historic Areas of Istanbul listing which includes both Byzantine and Ottoman sites, including several sites that are active mosques, and mosques that were previously Byzantine churches. As the UNESCO listing notes 'finding a balance between change and preservation is a delicate issue in the Historic Areas', but there's nothing that precludes changing the use of any of the historic sites so long as conservation principles are otherwise adhered to. 'The impressive skyline of the Historic Peninsula with the Topkapı Palace, Hagia Sophia and Süleymaniye is preserved by planning measures'; super, but then no one is proposing tearing Hagia Sophia down, are they?

Anyway, as those of us who've worked on UNESCO World Heritage Sites know, UNESCO has no enforcement provision other than wobbly moral authority. UNESCO sites are only protected by the laws of the listing country and the prestige of being on the UNESCO World Heritage list. The threat of delisting didn't save the Oman Arabian Oryx sanctuary (delisted 2007) or the Dresden Elbe Valley in Germany (delisted 2009). Nor did it stop the partial delisting of the Bagrati Cathedral/Gelati Monastery in Georgia in 2017; the monastery was kept on, but the cathedral was taken off after the ruined and partially roofless 11th-century cathedral was restored into a fully functioning religious site. But that's not what's being proposed with Hagia Sophia; the fabric of the structure wouldn't significantly change, only its internal use (assuming they leave the mosaics untouched; that would be an issue). So again, what's the basis for delisting Hagia Sophia if it becomes an active mosque?

I desperately don't want it to become a mosque; but let's be a bit more realistic about UNESCO's role in that discussion.

Ah I seem to have misunderstood the source I linked earlier then, if what you say is true.

Speaking of the mosaics however, which is the real issue, would it not be that converting the Hagia Sofia back into a functioning Mosque would necessitate the removal/covering of the Byzantine era artwork?

That was my assumption given that most of them were only uncovered after the building became a museum.

[The Archregimancy]

Ah I seem to have misunderstood the source I linked earlier then, if what you say is true.

Speaking of the mosaics however, which is the real issue, would it not be that converting the Hagia Sofia back into a functioning Mosque would necessitate the removal/covering of the Byzantine era artwork?

That was my assumption given that most of them were only uncovered after the building became a museum.

We don't know unless there are firm proposals; and, as Vistulange notes, there are no firm proposals because this was always more about political posturing rather than a serious suggestion.

But looking at this hypothetically...

The main issues from a Muslim perspective would be the apse mosaic of the Virgin, the northern tympanum mosaics of various saints, and the Imperial Door mosaic of an emperor venerating Christ. The surviving faces of the central dome supporting seraphim were only revealed as recently as 2009, and could simply have their faces covered again, as per Ottoman practice. The mosaics in the Upper Gallery interiors are largely not visible from the central worship space, so wouldn't potentially be as problematic. I imagine the main point of contention in the upper galleries would be the 13th-century Deësis mosaic. Its overt Christian themes could lead to stricter Muslims contesting its presence in a mosque, even in the galleries; but it's also one of the great masterpieces of medieval European art. It's very difficult to see how that could ever be covered up without causing a storm of international outrage. And it's precisely that sort of difficulty that helps to explain why it's very, very unlikely to ever be turned into a mosque again; unless Turkey is taken over by real radical Muslims rather than a posturing authoritarian populist who cloaks himself in Islam as a political tool.

[Vistulange]

Also, can I point out that the title of the thread is thoroughly wrong and entirely click-bait?

The Hagia Sophia has not been turned into a place of worship. Erdoğan talked about the possibility of doing so, for what might be the millionth time. I've stopped counting.

[The Archregimancy]

Also, can I point out that the title of the thread is thoroughly wrong and entirely click-bait?

The Hagia Sophia has not been turned into a place of worship. Erdoğan talked about the possibility of doing so, for what might be the millionth time. I've stopped counting.

It's unclear because the OP's English is wobbly - an observation, not a criticism - but I think he may have also have been referencing the recent decision to allow Muslim prayers inside Hagia Sophia for the anniversary of the fall of Constantinople (a nice bit of trolling the neighbours there) alongside the political grandstanding about possibly reconverting it into a mosque. He wasn't solely referencing the latter.

If that interpretation is correct, which I concede is a bit generous, then it's technically accurate that Erdogan recently allowed Hagia Sophia to be a 'place of worship'.

However, this isn't the first time that something similar has been allowed in recent years; and even if so, the title is still deeply misleading (as opposed to thoroughly wrong) since everyone is assuming it's about mosque conversion.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Building constructed for purpose of worship turned into place of worship.

I mean, not exactly the intended purpose, and I disagree with it, but it was a place of worship long before it was a museum.

[Vistulange]

Also, can I point out that the title of the thread is thoroughly wrong and entirely click-bait?

The Hagia Sophia has not been turned into a place of worship. Erdoğan talked about the possibility of doing so, for what might be the millionth time. I've stopped counting.

It's unclear because the OP's English is wobbly - an observation, not a criticism - but I think he may have also have been referencing the recent decision to allow Muslim prayers inside Hagia Sophia for the anniversary of the fall of Constantinople (a nice bit of trolling the neighbours there) alongside the political grandstanding about possibly reconverting it into a mosque. He wasn't solely referencing the latter.

If that interpretation is correct, which I concede is a bit generous, then it's technically accurate that Erdogan recently allowed Hagia Sophia to be a 'place of worship'.

However, this isn't the first time that something similar has been allowed in recent years; and even if so, the title is still deeply misleading (as opposed to thoroughly wrong) since everyone is assuming it's about mosque conversion.

To be clear, prayers have been held in the masjid adjacent to the Hagia Sophia since 10 February 1991, when it was opened for worship by then-Culture Minister Namık Kemal Zeybek. The call to prayer is also read aloud, as is normal. However, the director of the Hagia Sophia Museum at the time, Jale Dedeoğlu, said in an interview back in 2008 that this masjid had no connection to the Hagia Sophia Museum. I'm not aware of any changes to that situation since then, but I could be wrong. I don't think I am, though.

[The Archregimancy]

It's unclear because the OP's English is wobbly - an observation, not a criticism - but I think he may have also have been referencing the recent decision to allow Muslim prayers inside Hagia Sophia for the anniversary of the fall of Constantinople (a nice bit of trolling the neighbours there) alongside the political grandstanding about possibly reconverting it into a mosque. He wasn't solely referencing the latter.

If that interpretation is correct, which I concede is a bit generous, then it's technically accurate that Erdogan recently allowed Hagia Sophia to be a 'place of worship'.

However, this isn't the first time that something similar has been allowed in recent years; and even if so, the title is still deeply misleading (as opposed to thoroughly wrong) since everyone is assuming it's about mosque conversion.

To be clear, prayers have been held in the masjid adjacent to the Hagia Sophia since 10 February 1991, when it was opened for worship by then-Culture Minister Namık Kemal Zeybek. The call to prayer is also read aloud, as is normal. However, the director of the Hagia Sophia Museum at the time, Jale Dedeoğlu, said in an interview back in 2008 that this masjid had no connection to the Hagia Sophia Museum. I'm not aware of any changes to that situation since then, but I could be wrong. I don't think I am, though.

I believe you're correct. However, the 2016 incident linked to above definitely involved an imam issuing the Call to Prayer from inside Hagia Sophia itself. Specifically from the upper galleries. See this photograph taken during the incident:



However, to be equally clear, this was the call to prayer only; this didn't involve actual congregational prayers taking place after the adhan (or ezan, since this is Turkey).

[Greed and Death]

Greece has condemned the action. Turkey has stated if you are not going to invade who cares.

[Rojava Free State]

Erdogan really took Turkey backwards.

[DACOROMANIA]

In the first moment that Ayasofya may become a mosque instead of a museum, all Byzantine mosaics will be destroyed just because they're non-Muslim art. The Sultan Mehmet Fatih didn't destroy that piece of art but painting the walls with a new color over. However the next dictators who may come from now forward in Turkey will go beyond the normal limits. When the world falls in darkness every piece of art won't matter, whatever if Ayasofya or a Da-Vinci painting. All mosaics of Ayasofya will be destroyed by a Turkish hammer, I'm sure of that if that is no longer a museum.

[Rojava Free State]

In the first moment that Ayasofya may become a mosque instead of a museum, all Byzantine mosaics will be destroyed just because they're non-Muslim art. The Sultan Mehmet Fatih didn't destroy that piece of art but painting the walls with a new color over. However the next dictators who may come from now forward in Turkey will go beyond the normal limits. When the world falls in darkness every piece of art won't matter, whatever if Ayasofya or a Da-Vinci painting. All mosaics of Ayasofya will be destroyed by a Turkish hammer, I'm sure of that if that is no longer a museum.

Erdogan wants to turn Turkey into a Turkish paradise. In case you all didn't know, that means it would be hell for most other people since Turkish supremacy=genocide and the destruction of other cultures and their histories.

[Dogmeat]

To paraphrase Marge Simpson,

"Turkey, lately the only thing keeping us together, is my ability to overlook everything that you do."