Erdogan turns Ayasofya museum into a place of worship

[Shrillland]

Why is having the main bridge between Europe and Asia Minor important...let's just ask pretty much every conquering force of the last 2,500 years. Oh, and plus we don't need a southern gateway for Russia to start spilling influence into the Balkans, they've enough problems as it is.

You'd need to provide evidence that 1) Russian has imperial machinations in that region and 2) that it's any worse than the current situation

Fair enough, Russia's got enough on its plate with Ukraine and their failing grip on Transcaucasia without having to worry about their southwestern edges.

[Heloin]

Whomever controls the Dardanelles controls who has access to and from the Black Sea. NATO would never want the Black Sea fleet to have unfettered access to the Mediterranean.

Without being an expert on geostrategy, I wonder how important the Straits truly are for Russia. They have the most powerful navy in the Black Sea anyway and don't seem to have big issues to re-locate military hardware to their assets in Syria and Libya.

It's not the case at the moment, Russia can get into the Mediterranean whenever they want right now, it's the if potential that NATO worries about. It's the same situation that exists in the far east with the Spratly Islands. Water ways are how we move most stuff around the planet. If Russia and NATO faced off in a non nuclear conventional war, keeping the Black Sea fleet in the Black Sea would be extremely important.

To get to the actually point of the thread Erdogan doing things like this that needlessly antagonise Turkey's neighbours and allies is just stupid.

[Vistulange]

Why are we allies with this backsliding shithole?

I would wager that countries generally don't base their overall strategies based off of a simple symbolic act done by a flagging authoritarian regime trying desperately to shore up its ranks.

But hey, of course you would know better.

[Bear Stearns]

Why are we allies with this backsliding shithole?

I would wager that countries generally don't base their overall strategies based off of a simple symbolic act done by a flagging authoritarian regime trying desperately to shore up its ranks.

But hey, of course you would know better.

The US justifies its foreign policy with an ideological commitment to democracy. When we ally with and support authoritarian states the whole system is undermined.

[Vistulange]

I would wager that countries generally don't base their overall strategies based off of a simple symbolic act done by a flagging authoritarian regime trying desperately to shore up its ranks.

But hey, of course you would know better.

The US justifies its foreign policy with an ideological commitment to democracy. When we ally with and support authoritarian states the whole system is undermined.

No, it doesn't. Not with how its current president seems to get along tremendously well with Putin and Kim.

And, even if I am incorrect and that this farcical idea of a democracy-supporting US is true in the real world, Turkey has largely been democratic until 2016. There's nothing to suggest that it cannot become democratic once more.

[Bear Stearns]

The US justifies its foreign policy with an ideological commitment to democracy. When we ally with and support authoritarian states the whole system is undermined.

No, it doesn't. Not with how its current president seems to get along tremendously well with Putin and Kim.

And, even if I am incorrect and that this farcical idea of a democracy-supporting US is true in the real world, Turkey has largely been democratic until 2016. There's nothing to suggest that it cannot become democratic once more.

Trump being friendly to authoritarian leaders is fairly par for the course for US presidents. May I remind you that the US has supported Saudi Arabia, the Shah of Iran, military juntas in Latin America, Francoist Spain, apartheid South Africa, and so on. To act like this suddenly started with Trump is stupid. And frankly, Russia is a hell of a lot better than some of the countries we currently support (Saudi Arabia and Israel).

In spite of all of this, the US justifies its overseas presence because it convinces people that what it does is in the name of democracy and freedom, even if we have to stand on a mountain of corpses to get there.

More realistic is that the US is just honest about its imperial ambitions. It doesn't matter if Turkey is democratic or not, because our support for Turkey never had anything to do with it being democratic. It was entirely about containing the Russian Black Sea fleet, and now, building pipelines from the Middle East. I can accept those as reasons why we put up with Turkey's shit, but let's at least be honest about it and not act like we're serving some higher cause.

[Shrillland]

The US justifies its foreign policy with an ideological commitment to democracy. When we ally with and support authoritarian states the whole system is undermined.

No, it doesn't. Not with how its current president seems to get along tremendously well with Putin and Kim.

And, even if I am incorrect and that this farcical idea of a democracy-supporting US is true in the real world, Turkey has largely been democratic until 2016. There's nothing to suggest that it cannot become democratic once more.

I don't know...as a lot of us see it, this isn't the sign of a flailing authoritarian, but one who has spent so much time consolidating his position that he no longer has to worry about things like popular opinion.

[Vistulange]

No, it doesn't. Not with how its current president seems to get along tremendously well with Putin and Kim.

And, even if I am incorrect and that this farcical idea of a democracy-supporting US is true in the real world, Turkey has largely been democratic until 2016. There's nothing to suggest that it cannot become democratic once more.

Trump being friendly to authoritarian leaders is fairly par for the course for US presidents. May I remind you that the US has supported Saudi Arabia, the Shah of Iran, military juntas in Latin America, Francoist Spain, apartheid South Africa, and so on. To act like this suddenly started with Trump is stupid. And frankly, Russia is a hell of a lot better than some of the countries we currently support (Saudi Arabia and Israel).

In spite of all of this, the US justifies its overseas presence because it convinces people that what it does is in the name of democracy and freedom, even if we have to stand on a mountain of corpses to get there.

More realistic is that the US is just honest about its imperial ambitions. It doesn't matter if Turkey is democratic or not, because our support for Turkey never had anything to do with it being democratic. It was entirely about containing the Russian Black Sea fleet, and now, building pipelines from the Middle East. I can accept those as reasons why we put up with Turkey's shit, but let's at least be honest about it and not act like we're serving some higher cause.

You know, you really could have written this in the first place and chalked it up to pure practicality, instead of trying to act like you gave a shit about democracies in the first place.

No, it doesn't. Not with how its current president seems to get along tremendously well with Putin and Kim.

And, even if I am incorrect and that this farcical idea of a democracy-supporting US is true in the real world, Turkey has largely been democratic until 2016. There's nothing to suggest that it cannot become democratic once more.

I don't know...as a lot of us see it, this isn't the sign of a flailing authoritarian, but one who has spent so much time consolidating his position that he no longer has to worry about things like popular opinion.

Which is wrong, despite what you may think. Turkey is not cursed with natural resources, which means that there's only so much rent the AKP and its elites can circulate before economics happens.

You do not follow domestic media, and pretty much none of you can given that virtually nobody amongst you knows Turkish. Therefore, you are presented with this nonsensical image where public opinion is not a thing in Turkey. I cannot teach you Turkish, nor can I translate stuff into English for you. Therefore, you will need to understand that your view of Turkey as presented is highly flawed and full of holes, not through any fault of your own but purely due to the fact that Turkey is not as news-worthy in the Anglo-sphere relative to other countries, thus necessitating far less detailed and frequent coverage.

This notion that Turks don't dislike Erdoğan and the AKP in the least bit, frankly, is rubbish, utter rubbish perpetuated by three-paragraph, bite-sized news clips.

[Bear Stearns]

Trump being friendly to authoritarian leaders is fairly par for the course for US presidents. May I remind you that the US has supported Saudi Arabia, the Shah of Iran, military juntas in Latin America, Francoist Spain, apartheid South Africa, and so on. To act like this suddenly started with Trump is stupid. And frankly, Russia is a hell of a lot better than some of the countries we currently support (Saudi Arabia and Israel).

In spite of all of this, the US justifies its overseas presence because it convinces people that what it does is in the name of democracy and freedom, even if we have to stand on a mountain of corpses to get there.

More realistic is that the US is just honest about its imperial ambitions. It doesn't matter if Turkey is democratic or not, because our support for Turkey never had anything to do with it being democratic. It was entirely about containing the Russian Black Sea fleet, and now, building pipelines from the Middle East. I can accept those as reasons why we put up with Turkey's shit, but let's at least be honest about it and not act like we're serving some higher cause.

You know, you really could have written this in the first place and chalked it up to pure practicality, instead of trying to act like you gave a shit about democracies in the first place.

I care as much as about democracy as US foreign policymakers. The only difference is I don't think we should have to lie about our intentions.

[Baltenstein]

This notion that Turks don't dislike Erdoğan and the AKP in the least bit, frankly, is rubbish, utter rubbish perpetuated by three-paragraph, bite-sized news clips.

In Germany, this perception is influenced by the fact that Erdo seems to be more popular with the German-Turkish community than with the domestic voter base inside Turkey. As a rule of thumb, the more vocally and visibly "Turkish" someone is, the more he seems to drift towards supporting Erdogan.
Turkish German citizens, public figures and politicians with Turkish roots who are anti-Erdogan are usually of better social and educational background, have a more western lifestyle and simply don't stick out that much from mainstream society.

[Shrillland]

Trump being friendly to authoritarian leaders is fairly par for the course for US presidents. May I remind you that the US has supported Saudi Arabia, the Shah of Iran, military juntas in Latin America, Francoist Spain, apartheid South Africa, and so on. To act like this suddenly started with Trump is stupid. And frankly, Russia is a hell of a lot better than some of the countries we currently support (Saudi Arabia and Israel).

In spite of all of this, the US justifies its overseas presence because it convinces people that what it does is in the name of democracy and freedom, even if we have to stand on a mountain of corpses to get there.

More realistic is that the US is just honest about its imperial ambitions. It doesn't matter if Turkey is democratic or not, because our support for Turkey never had anything to do with it being democratic. It was entirely about containing the Russian Black Sea fleet, and now, building pipelines from the Middle East. I can accept those as reasons why we put up with Turkey's shit, but let's at least be honest about it and not act like we're serving some higher cause.

You know, you really could have written this in the first place and chalked it up to pure practicality, instead of trying to act like you gave a shit about democracies in the first place.

I don't know...as a lot of us see it, this isn't the sign of a flailing authoritarian, but one who has spent so much time consolidating his position that he no longer has to worry about things like popular opinion.

Which is wrong, despite what you may think. Turkey is not cursed with natural resources, which means that there's only so much rent the AKP and its elites can circulate before economics happens.

You do not follow domestic media, and pretty much none of you can given that virtually nobody amongst you knows Turkish. Therefore, you are presented with this nonsensical image where public opinion is not a thing in Turkey. I cannot teach you Turkish, nor can I translate stuff into English for you. Therefore, you will need to understand that your view of Turkey as presented is highly flawed and full of holes, not through any fault of your own but purely due to the fact that Turkey is not as news-worthy in the Anglo-sphere relative to other countries, thus necessitating far less detailed and frequent coverage.

This notion that Turks don't dislike Erdoğan and the AKP in the least bit, frankly, is rubbish, utter rubbish perpetuated by three-paragraph, bite-sized news clips.

Fair enough, I know he's got a lot of opposition, it's just that they never seem to be able to unite around a group to get him out come election-time it seems.

[Shrillland]

No, it doesn't. Not with how its current president seems to get along tremendously well with Putin and Kim.

And, even if I am incorrect and that this farcical idea of a democracy-supporting US is true in the real world, Turkey has largely been democratic until 2016. There's nothing to suggest that it cannot become democratic once more.

Trump being friendly to authoritarian leaders is fairly par for the course for US presidents. May I remind you that the US has supported Saudi Arabia, the Shah of Iran, military juntas in Latin America, Francoist Spain, apartheid South Africa, and so on. To act like this suddenly started with Trump is stupid. And frankly, Russia is a hell of a lot better than some of the countries we currently support (Saudi Arabia and Israel).

In spite of all of this, the US justifies its overseas presence because it convinces people that what it does is in the name of democracy and freedom, even if we have to stand on a mountain of corpses to get there.

More realistic is that the US is just honest about its imperial ambitions. It doesn't matter if Turkey is democratic or not, because our support for Turkey never had anything to do with it being democratic. It was entirely about containing the Russian Black Sea fleet, and now, building pipelines from the Middle East. I can accept those as reasons why we put up with Turkey's shit, but let's at least be honest about it and not act like we're serving some higher cause.

...and stopping Armenian vengeance via a Soviet invasion at the time, at least that's how it was presented when they joined NATO.

[Vistulange]

This notion that Turks don't dislike Erdoğan and the AKP in the least bit, frankly, is rubbish, utter rubbish perpetuated by three-paragraph, bite-sized news clips.

In Germany, this perception is influenced by the fact that Erdo seems to be more popular with the German-Turkish community than with the domestic voter base inside Turkey. As a rule of thumb, the more vocally and visibly "Turkish" someone is, the more he seems to drift towards supporting Erdogan.
Turkish German citizens, public figures and politicians with Turkish roots who are anti-Erdogan are usually of better social and educational background, have a more western lifestyle and simply don't stick out that much from mainstream society.

That's a very good point, thanks for putting it out there. I'm not too familiar with the Turkish diaspora in Europe, myself, but even in Turkey they are disliked for pretty much the same reasons as the native inhabitants of the country dislike them.

You know, you really could have written this in the first place and chalked it up to pure practicality, instead of trying to act like you gave a shit about democracies in the first place.

Which is wrong, despite what you may think. Turkey is not cursed with natural resources, which means that there's only so much rent the AKP and its elites can circulate before economics happens.

You do not follow domestic media, and pretty much none of you can given that virtually nobody amongst you knows Turkish. Therefore, you are presented with this nonsensical image where public opinion is not a thing in Turkey. I cannot teach you Turkish, nor can I translate stuff into English for you. Therefore, you will need to understand that your view of Turkey as presented is highly flawed and full of holes, not through any fault of your own but purely due to the fact that Turkey is not as news-worthy in the Anglo-sphere relative to other countries, thus necessitating far less detailed and frequent coverage.

This notion that Turks don't dislike Erdoğan and the AKP in the least bit, frankly, is rubbish, utter rubbish perpetuated by three-paragraph, bite-sized news clips.

Fair enough, I know he's got a lot of opposition, it's just that they never seem to be able to unite around a group to get him out come election-time it seems.

No, that's true. The opposition in Turkey is largely unable to coalesce around a proper party, platform, or candidate, I do not disagree with that. I disagree - vehemently - with the notion that public opinion is irrelevant in Turkey, or that Erdoğan's grip on power is as firm as foreign media outlets make it out to be.

[Santheres]

Reminder: the topic is about turning the Hagia Sophia back into a place of worship.

[Shrillland]

Of course. As I said earlier, the first service will likely be on Wednesday, and Friday prayers every week. That being said, I'm not sure that the Diyanet will resort to breaking or selling off the works inside.

[Vistulange]

Of course. As I said earlier, the first service will likely be on Wednesday, and Friday prayers every week. That being said, I'm not sure that the Diyanet will resort to breaking or selling off the works inside.

No, they probably won't, though never underestimate the sheer idiocy of AKP elites. However, in this case, doing that won't really bring brownie points - nobody is going to care about the icons - so they probably won't.

News is that they aren't moving to do so, so we can breathe a bit more easily.

[Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum]

Again, Erdogan trying to be the next Atatürk while simultaneously trying to destroy everything that Atatürk stood for.

But at least he now made the ayasofya free to enter.

And this is great disrespect to the republic's values. This is a war between the political Islam and the republic.

[USS Monitor]

There are plenty of places that are both museums and places of worship. I don't think holding an occasional religious service is a problem as long as they are still preserving the building and allowing tourist visits.

I understand Erdogan is not the most trustworthy person, and it's fair to be concerned about what else he might have up his sleeve, but holding a worship service on it's own isn't a problem. That goes whether the service is Muslim, Christian, or any other religion.

[USS Monitor]

That being said, I'm not sure that the Diyanet will resort to breaking or selling off the works inside.

I hope not. If they do that. it's a problem.

[Gormwood]

There are plenty of places that are both museums and places of worship. I don't think holding an occasional religious service is a problem as long as they are still preserving the building and allowing tourist visits.

I understand Erdogan is not the most trustworthy person, and it's fair to be concerned about what else he might have up his sleeve, but holding a worship service on it's own isn't a problem. That goes whether the service is Muslim, Christian, or any other religion.

I predict Erdogan will convert it to strictly a mosque and bar non-Muslims from it. Maybe even do a little looting on the side.

[Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum]

There are plenty of places that are both museums and places of worship. I don't think holding an occasional religious service is a problem as long as they are still preserving the building and allowing tourist visits.

I understand Erdogan is not the most trustworthy person, and it's fair to be concerned about what else he might have up his sleeve, but holding a worship service on it's own isn't a problem. That goes whether the service is Muslim, Christian, or any other religion.

Religions cannot insult the republic. It will be a museum again after the 2023 elections

[Vistulange]

There are plenty of places that are both museums and places of worship. I don't think holding an occasional religious service is a problem as long as they are still preserving the building and allowing tourist visits.

I understand Erdogan is not the most trustworthy person, and it's fair to be concerned about what else he might have up his sleeve, but holding a worship service on it's own isn't a problem. That goes whether the service is Muslim, Christian, or any other religion.

I predict Erdogan will convert it to strictly a mosque and bar non-Muslims from it. Maybe even do a little looting on the side.

Er, why? There isn't much in there to be looted, I don't know if you have ever visited, but...

[Diarcesia]

The first question that comes to my mind is: would they board up the Byzantine art again?

[Vistulange]

The first question that comes to my mind is: would they board up the Byzantine art again?

From what has been announced, the icons of Gabriel and Mary will be covered up by folding covers. The icons facing the qiblah will also be covered with cloth curtains. Experts sent to evaluate the place have apparently stated that "the removal of the icons and symbols, or their transportation elsewhere, would be inappropriate". Meanwhile, vast rugs will be spread on the floor, taking into account certain deformations and damage to the floor so as to not damage it further.

EDIT: https://translate.google.com/translate? ... di-1750920

Here, the translation is acceptable.

[Sharania]

Let us rememer put local "area experts" who asked us to trust them and their judgement:

The OP is misleading on several counts.

1) I can find no reliable news story that states that Hagia Sophia is about to be turned into a mosque. Muslim prayers were allowed inside the museum on one recent occasion. Erdogan has now made noises about considering converting it into a mosque; he also 'urged the AKP members to be “very sensitive” about this and not to rush the works regarding the Hagia Sophia'. So it's very much an open question as to whether this is a definite step in turning the building back into a mosque, grandstanding to irritate Greece, or merely an attempt to curry favour with the AKP's religiously conservative base by talking about it is an open question (though the latter two aren't incompatible). It's also worth remembering that Istanbul mayor Ekrem İmamoğlu represents a Kemalist social-democratic opposition party, and may not be so keen to go along.

[...]

Make no mistake, it would cause me considerable anguish on a personal level if Hagia Sophia were to be converted in a mosque (a site for informal prayers by both Muslims and Christians I have less of an issue with), but I see nothing to confirm that this is definitely going to happen.

Just more rhetoric. It wont happen.

As a UNESCO World Heritage Site, any change to its name or function requires approval.

There shouldn't even be a thread on this.

It's simply the AKP posturing to its base amid a growing economic malaise exacerbated by the global pandemic and growing voter dissatisfaction. Predictably, when pushed on the issue, they backpedaled. Miraculously, the opposition knew better than to try and preach about "UNESCO", "World Heritage", and all that lovey-dovey stuff the average AKP voter gives precisely no shits about, but instead just called the AKP's bluff.

Well... that aged well!