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2020 US General Election Thread VII: Summer of Discontent

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Of All The Parties With 50+ Electoral Votes of Ballot Access, Which Party Do You Prefer?

Republicans
73
23%
Democrats
111
35%
Libertarians
24
8%
Greens
59
19%
Constitution Party
12
4%
Alliance Party
4
1%
Socialism and Liberation
31
10%
 
Total votes : 314

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Ngelmish
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Postby Ngelmish » Fri Jul 10, 2020 7:47 pm

Uiiop wrote:
Outer Sparta wrote:Get Biden to stabilize things, then use that as a stepping stone to work for a more progressive future.

You sure he wouldn't try to stop that?


Yes.

Outer Sparta wrote:
Ngelmish wrote:
Which only works if we keep his successor in office. And her successor, most likely.

Like, I sympathize with idea that Democrats don't do enough (they never have), but that's what it takes. You don't refuse to put Al Gore in office because Clinton sucked, you do it anyway because there's a framework already in place that he can build on. Or you the give the right 4 to 8 to 12 years to just blow things up and the next time you have your 8 years, you, maybe, have just barely gotten a functional structure back together again. Stepping stones require multiple steps, and the worst thing about the Democratic coalition is their tendency to plunge into the water because they didn't like the last stone.

Democrats shouldn't have to be afraid to jump up to the next stone or push for nation-changing ideas and policy. Being timid and not bold is a disaster in politics in general.


Well, that's where, as is sometimes the case, Trump is oddly revealing -- "Nobody knew healthcare could be so complicated." In general the Democrats' problem isn't timidity (perennial reminder that the evil neoliberal Clinton's tried to pass Nixon's, which is to say Bismarck's, universal health insurance policy), it's that their voters don't accept the long game. It creates a feedback loop where Democratic politicians are more hesitant to push nation-changing policies -- because even though their base say they want it, they don't show up consistently for it.

Of course, my friends to the left of me and my friends who say they're to the left of me would suggest that's because the Democrats don't actually push those policies, but I would suggest that they equally ignore improvements designed to grease the skids for the policies that they'd prefer and so we achieve carnivorous deadlock.
Last edited by Ngelmish on Fri Jul 10, 2020 7:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Outer Sparta
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Postby Outer Sparta » Fri Jul 10, 2020 7:51 pm

Ngelmish wrote:
Uiiop wrote:You sure he wouldn't try to stop that?


Yes.

Outer Sparta wrote:Democrats shouldn't have to be afraid to jump up to the next stone or push for nation-changing ideas and policy. Being timid and not bold is a disaster in politics in general.


Well, that's where, as is sometimes the case, Trump is oddly revealing -- "Nobody knew healthcare could be so complicated." In general the Democrats' problem isn't timidity (perennial reminder that the evil neoliberal Clinton's tried to pass Nixon's, which is to say Bismarck's, universal health insurance policy), it's that their voters don't accept the long game. It creates a feedback loop where Democratic are more hesitant to push nation-changing policies -- because even though their base say they want it, they don't show up consistently for it.

Of course, my friends to the left of me and my friends who say they're to the left of me would suggest that's because the Democrats don't actually push those policies, but I would suggest that they equally ignore improvements designed to grease the skids for the policies that they'd prefer and so we achieve carnivorous deadlock.

Of course if Biden beats Trump it's definitely not time to get complacent, but to prepare for the long game. Hopefully Dems do not get complacent in that regard cause even getting Trump out of office means you have to do the dirty work to restore faith in the country's leadership.
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South Odreria 2
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Postby South Odreria 2 » Fri Jul 10, 2020 7:59 pm

I don’t accept that change can come only if Democrats win every single election. Historically the trade union movement has generally been the only major counterweight to the political and economic power of capital. The Democratic Party can’t repeatedly and deliberately weaken trade unions (or, at best, ignore them) and then blame its voters for capital’s stranglehold on society. The democrats will never win every election there is. The reason labour is weak in this country is that the political party it generally supports has implemented policies that increase the power of capital, not because of those darn bernie bros.
Last edited by South Odreria 2 on Fri Jul 10, 2020 8:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ngelmish
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Postby Ngelmish » Fri Jul 10, 2020 8:00 pm

Outer Sparta wrote:
Ngelmish wrote:
Yes.



Well, that's where, as is sometimes the case, Trump is oddly revealing -- "Nobody knew healthcare could be so complicated." In general the Democrats' problem isn't timidity (perennial reminder that the evil neoliberal Clinton's tried to pass Nixon's, which is to say Bismarck's, universal health insurance policy), it's that their voters don't accept the long game. It creates a feedback loop where Democratic are more hesitant to push nation-changing policies -- because even though their base say they want it, they don't show up consistently for it.

Of course, my friends to the left of me and my friends who say they're to the left of me would suggest that's because the Democrats don't actually push those policies, but I would suggest that they equally ignore improvements designed to grease the skids for the policies that they'd prefer and so we achieve carnivorous deadlock.

Of course if Biden beats Trump it's definitely not time to get complacent, but to prepare for the long game. Hopefully Dems do not get complacent in that regard cause even getting Trump out of office means you have to do the dirty work to restore faith in the country's leadership.


Keeping Trump in office is fundamentally abusive, both to him and to us and that's the main question of the election (and would be even if Warren or Sanders were the nominee, collaborating in Trump's delusions is pretty much the definition of child abuse at this point), but, assuming we win, we go back to a different question.

Which is that the GOP is a plutocratic, nihilistic, post policy party of cheaply ginned up outrage. The lunatics took over the asylum circa roughly '94 (with some encouragement, of course, from earlier elections), and I'm not sure that there is a solution to that other than riding roughshod over the conservatives. Which of course is the other reason why they're so freaked out. Alas, we don't have President Warren in the wings who had a plan for that.

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Outer Sparta
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Postby Outer Sparta » Fri Jul 10, 2020 8:02 pm

Ngelmish wrote:
Outer Sparta wrote:Of course if Biden beats Trump it's definitely not time to get complacent, but to prepare for the long game. Hopefully Dems do not get complacent in that regard cause even getting Trump out of office means you have to do the dirty work to restore faith in the country's leadership.


Keeping Trump in office is fundamentally abusive, both to him and to us and that's the main question of the election (and would be even if Warren or Sanders were the nominee, collaborating in Trump's delusions is pretty much the definition of child abuse at this point), but, assuming we win, we go back to a different question.

Which is that the GOP is a plutocratic, nihilistic, post policy party of cheaply ginned up outrage. The lunatics took over the asylum circa roughly '94 (with some encouragement, of course, from earlier elections), and I'm not sure that there is a solution to that other than riding roughshod over the conservatives. Which of course is the other reason why they're so freaked out. Alas, we don't have President Warren in the wings who had a plan for that.

It would have been nice for Warren to be the nominee. Her policy was once of the reasons I supported her originally.
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Asle Leopolka
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Postby Asle Leopolka » Fri Jul 10, 2020 8:10 pm

Cisairse wrote:
Asle Leopolka wrote:<SNIP>


Hol up. W didn't lose the popular vote in 2004.

Already been addressed and doesn't take away from the fact that if you're a sitting president and your approval rating is trash you're not getting reelected.

Cisairse wrote:
South Odreria 2 wrote:Bruh Biden lookin pretty good


I'm honestly considering voting for him now


Oh get over yourself and vote the orange fucker out.
W̵̲͔͇͒̌̉̆̇͛̋ͅa̸̢̼̺̅̉̊͝l̶̟͈̳̗͒͜l̷̫͝ ̶̱̱̘͖̙̬͖̈́̏̕͘ō̴̼̭̥͔̮̟͒̒͒ͅn̴̖̦͎̯͕̈́̿͘͠ ̸̞̼͉͙́͐̏͝ẗ̴̮͕̰̫̖͉̩̍͆̂͛͝h̵̖̋̉̾̎͆e̸̞̩̳̲͙͎͑ ̴̩̈̽̈́͑S̵̯̮̟͈͎̭͠t̸͍̗̹̬͉̙̓͆̔̿r̸̡̤̺̱̹͈̦͑̈́̅ẹ̶̮͔̳̆͆̄̏̔e̴̢̺͚̠̟͕̋̄̂̓̽͘t̴̢̡̩͙̫̼̚,̸̩̖͌̈́͐̇ ̷̨͐͆P̵̳̦͗r̶̹̪̯͕̬̰̍̓͆o̷̠̱͙̠͔̗̫̽f̶̱͙͇̼̬̮̻̊͌̋į̸̯̩̖͇̍͋̓̾́̏̽ͅt̴͇̬͍̗̺̀̈́̈́͗͊ ̴̧̯̼̩͑̓̒͗i̷̪̲̜̮̼̲̎͑͊̂̕n̶͍̂ ̴͓̻̤̬͎̫̹̎͌̈́́̕͝t̸̺͚͍̕h̷͖͎̙͍̬̫̰̍̀̃̿̓e̷̛̩̔̑̌̾͊ ̵̤̖͎͔͖̂͘͝S̴̳͖̩̪͕̒͒̌͌͝h̷̝͇̱̝̻̓̓͂͑̒ȅ̶̛̞̱̮̏͐͜ḕ̷͙͉̄͜ť̸̫̩̟s̴̲̲̏̑̏̇͆͂͘͜

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Ngelmish
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Postby Ngelmish » Fri Jul 10, 2020 8:10 pm

South Odreria 2 wrote:I don’t accept that change can come only if Democrats win every single election. Historically the trade union movement has generally been the only major counterweight to the political and economic power of capital. The Democratic Party can’t repeatedly and deliberately weaken trade unions and then blame its voters for capital’s stranglehold on society. The democrats will never win every election there is. The reason labour is weak in this country is that the political party it generally supports has implemented policies that increase the power of capital, not because of those darn bernie bros.


Activism. Governing.

Two different things, and the Democratic Party, especially in the last 40 years, has failed to give much more than lip service to trade unions. This was a trend that Carter kicked off, ironically, even though he tried to federalize labor more broadly. The point is -- he tried. And the Democratic Party, broadly, is open to supporting labor. Even Bill Clinton was more friendly to unions than his Republican opponents, and, subsequently, it hasn't been close.

You like to talk about bullying Democrats, and you're right. Good. Do that. Keep up the pressure. But take better deals when they're offered, and take them from the people that are receptive. Not voting for the party that is willing to at least think about strengthening labor and in the past has literally campaigned on it is self destructive.

The odd Bernie bro may be to blame, Bernie bros are a meme. And while Democrats can't win every election, labour'd be a damn sight healthier if they did.

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Farnhamia
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Postby Farnhamia » Fri Jul 10, 2020 8:12 pm

Cisairse wrote:
Asle Leopolka wrote:As someone who has worked in polling and now manages a team of statisticians and data scientists, I've been urging everyone to avoid the polls until after the first debate. That being said, there's one stat that has a strong historical precedence and is hard to ignore:

SITTING APPROVAL RATING FOR INCUMBENT PRESIDENTS AT THIS POINT OF THEIR PRESIDENCY (Source):
Trump: 38% (TBD)
Obama: 46% (Reelected)
W: 48% (Reelected but lost popular vote)
Clinton: 48% (Reelected)
Bush Sr: 38% (Lost reelection)
Reagan: 54% (Reelected)
Carter: 31% (Lost reelection)
Ford: 45% (Lost reelection)

Nixon: 56% (Reelected)
LBJ: 40% (Chose not to seek reelection but would likely have lost)
Kenedy: 58% before assassination (easily would have been reelected)
Eisenhower: 73% (Reelected)
Truman: 40% and on an upswing (no data on this particular date) (Barely reelected)

Trump is part of a club he should really wish he didn't belong. At this point no president with an approval rating below 45% has been reelected - Truman's 40% is for the two weeks prior to this time period and when he started campaigning hard as hell and had a monumental upswing.


Hol up. W didn't lose the popular vote in 2004.

And that was the only time a Republican won the popular vote between 1988 and, well ... forever.
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Cisairse
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Postby Cisairse » Fri Jul 10, 2020 8:18 pm

Asle Leopolka wrote:Oh get over yourself and vote the orange fucker out.


Not up to me. I live in a D+7 state which has not voted Republican since 1988. My top-ticket vote literally does not matter. Thus, I consider my presidential vote to mainly be affecting who I can later claim to have voted for when asked.
The details of the above post are subject to leftist infighting.

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Gormwood
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Postby Gormwood » Fri Jul 10, 2020 8:51 pm

Kanye West Is 'Struggling' with Bipolar Disorder as Rapper Says He Wants to Be President: Source

Wife Kim Kardashian West, who according to the source is in Los Angeles with their four kids while West is in Wyoming, has been feeling "worried" about her husband's behavior.

"Kim is concerned, as well as her whole family. It's super stressful for Kim, because Kanye's behavior is very unpredictable. She is worried," the source adds. "The episodes usually last for a few weeks and then things go back to normal. Kim hopes it will be the same this time."

Yep. Howard Beale just announced a 2020 run.
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Cisairse
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Postby Cisairse » Fri Jul 10, 2020 8:52 pm

Gormwood wrote:Kanye West Is 'Struggling' with Bipolar Disorder as Rapper Says He Wants to Be President: Source

Wife Kim Kardashian West, who according to the source is in Los Angeles with their four kids while West is in Wyoming, has been feeling "worried" about her husband's behavior.

"Kim is concerned, as well as her whole family. It's super stressful for Kim, because Kanye's behavior is very unpredictable. She is worried," the source adds. "The episodes usually last for a few weeks and then things go back to normal. Kim hopes it will be the same this time."

Yep. Howard Beale just announced a 2020 run.

still better than trump, and I am being dead fucking serious
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South Odreria 2
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Postby South Odreria 2 » Fri Jul 10, 2020 8:54 pm

Imagine not voting for kanye
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Asle Leopolka
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Postby Asle Leopolka » Fri Jul 10, 2020 8:59 pm

South Odreria 2 wrote:Imagine not voting for kanye

The first lady would get her own electoral college.
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Gormwood
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Postby Gormwood » Fri Jul 10, 2020 9:02 pm

South Odreria 2 wrote:Imagine not voting for kanye

And sure enough, people will vote for another unstable train wreck because of "entertainment value".
Last edited by Gormwood on Fri Jul 10, 2020 9:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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South Odreria 2
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Postby South Odreria 2 » Fri Jul 10, 2020 9:02 pm

Gormwood wrote:
South Odreria 2 wrote:Imagine not voting for kanye

And sure enough, people will vote for another unstable train wreck because of "entertainment value".

I thought you supported Biden?
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Thermodolia
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Postby Thermodolia » Fri Jul 10, 2020 9:05 pm

Outer Sparta wrote:
San Lumen wrote:https://twitter.com/AnnCoulter/status/1281688979411271686?s=20

Conservative activist Ann Coulter has endorsed Amy McGrath!!! What is this world coming too when i agree with someone like her? Coulter has a history of highly controversial statements such as if women couldn’t vote we’d never have to worry about another democratic president

It's probably some form of 10D chess. Make no mistake, Coutler is still with the same company as Lahren and other right-wing people.

Coulter hates Trump with a passion. She’s trolling Trump
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Outer Sparta
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Postby Outer Sparta » Fri Jul 10, 2020 9:09 pm

Thermodolia wrote:
Outer Sparta wrote:It's probably some form of 10D chess. Make no mistake, Coutler is still with the same company as Lahren and other right-wing people.

Coulter hates Trump with a passion. She’s trolling Trump

Very strange why Coulter would hate Trump.
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Thermodolia
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Postby Thermodolia » Fri Jul 10, 2020 9:13 pm

Outer Sparta wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:Coulter hates Trump with a passion. She’s trolling Trump

Very strange why Coulter would hate Trump.

Trump and Coulter has a spat back in 2016. I think Trump called her a bitch or something and she responded with him being a manchild.

They don’t like eachother
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Postby Czechostan » Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:09 pm

Outer Sparta wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:Coulter hates Trump with a passion. She’s trolling Trump

Very strange why Coulter would hate Trump.

Read her tweets.

"I will never apologize for supporting the issues that candidate Trump advocated, but I am deeply sorry for thinking that this shallow and broken man would show even some remote fealty to the promises that got him elected."

Her critique of him isn't that his policies are abysmal, it's that he's too incompetent to fulfill them. She's banking on Trump capsizing, and then herself and her ilk going back to being the main exporters of right-wing lunacy in the country.

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The Andromeda Island Group
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Postby The Andromeda Island Group » Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:11 pm

Thermodolia wrote:
Outer Sparta wrote:It's probably some form of 10D chess. Make no mistake, Coutler is still with the same company as Lahren and other right-wing people.

Coulter hates Trump with a passion. She’s trolling Trump


She probably thought that Trump would actually have a wall built at the southern border, paid for by Mexico.

I'm no fan of Ann Coulter, but she knows that she was played for a sucker... and she's doing something about it.

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Gormwood
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Postby Gormwood » Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:25 pm

South Odreria 2 wrote:
Gormwood wrote:And sure enough, people will vote for another unstable train wreck because of "entertainment value".

I thought you supported Biden?

Was that an attempt at a gotcha? Because that was pitiable.
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No State Here
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Postby No State Here » Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:28 pm

Gormwood wrote:
South Odreria 2 wrote:Imagine not voting for kanye

And sure enough, people will vote for another unstable train wreck because of "entertainment value".

Odds are an unstable train wreck will win every single EC vote
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The Alma Mater
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Postby The Alma Mater » Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:33 pm

Czechostan wrote:Her critique of him isn't that his policies are abysmal, it's that he's too incompetent to fulfill them.


Tbf, I wonder why that is not a more common view amongst Republicans. After all, Trump has not actually achieved anything noteworthy* during his presidency - except breaking the records for time at the golf course.

--
* That is assuming that said Republicans refuse to hold the commander-in-chief and leader of the country responsible for responding to pandemics and raceriots ofc.
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Gormwood
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Postby Gormwood » Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:34 pm

No State Here wrote:
Gormwood wrote:And sure enough, people will vote for another unstable train wreck because of "entertainment value".

Odds are an unstable train wreck will win every single EC vote

Much as you wish, we're not trapped in the 2016 time bubble.
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Postby Galloism » Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:35 pm

The Alma Mater wrote:
Czechostan wrote:Her critique of him isn't that his policies are abysmal, it's that he's too incompetent to fulfill them.


Tbf, I wonder why that is not a more common view amongst Republicans. After all, Trump has not actually achieved anything noteworthy* during his presidency - except breaking the records for time at the golf course.

--
* That is assuming that said Republicans refuse to hold the commander-in-chief and leader of the country responsible for responding to pandemics and raceriots ofc.

Tbh, the only two things of note are:

1) A modest tax cut
2) Packing the judiciary
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


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