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2020 US General Election Thread VII: Summer of Discontent

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Of All The Parties With 50+ Electoral Votes of Ballot Access, Which Party Do You Prefer?

Republicans
73
23%
Democrats
111
35%
Libertarians
24
8%
Greens
59
19%
Constitution Party
12
4%
Alliance Party
4
1%
Socialism and Liberation
31
10%
 
Total votes : 314

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Valrifell
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Postby Valrifell » Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:00 am

The Alma Mater wrote:
No State Here wrote:The UK and US are very different places, and it’s hard to make an accurate comparison between the two. Canada actually is much more similar, but then again they have the whole Quebec deal. What I’m trying to say is the US is a unique country and can’t be accurately compared with other countries when discussing potential political system.

Also no election system can be worse than the French presidential one


Have you checked the system for electing a new Pope ;) ?


Or how Venice elected the Doge?
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Outer Sparta
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Postby Outer Sparta » Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:01 am

Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:
No State Here wrote:Also no election system can be worse than the French presidential one


Runoff elections, where usually voters have to go to the polls twice. Maybe more.

It's just plain unnecessary. INSTANT runoff serves the same purpose, but voters only need to go to the polls once.

Even the French system though, gives voters more than two candidates to choose between. The candidates are only weakly associated with parties, too: once elected they get up a coalition in the Parliament (unless there's an outright majority party already) and this weakens the link. They can't campaign just for one party, because they might need other parties once in power.

Actually, what don't you like about it?

Runoff voting should be done instantly instead of spread across like a month later. At least in the US, runoff elections come with less turnout than the general or primary one.
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Nobel Hobos 2
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Postby Nobel Hobos 2 » Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:01 am

Outer Sparta wrote:
San Lumen wrote:i think MMP is the best system. It satisfies those who want proportional representation and those who want districts

If that system were to be implemented I prefer it to be a 50/50 split between district seats and list seats. That would mean having all states double their house delegation.


You'd still have districts having to lie entirely within one state, I take it. And what about the list seats, also state-by-state?

Just so we know, the states currently entitled to only one member, would have two, and they'd be elected differently (one by a head-to-head, the other from a list) but they'd be almost certainly the same party. Because proportional for only one seat isn't that much different to fptp. You probably know this, and anyway who cares about the small fry?

It won't work all that well for states entitled to 2 (4 under your system) or even 3. The threshold for a minor party to get elected there is (I think) 25% but maybe voters will vote differently in a different system.
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Outer Sparta
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Postby Outer Sparta » Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:04 am

Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:
Outer Sparta wrote:If that system were to be implemented I prefer it to be a 50/50 split between district seats and list seats. That would mean having all states double their house delegation.


You'd still have districts having to lie entirely within one state, I take it. And what about the list seats, also state-by-state?

Just so we know, the states currently entitled to only one member, would have two, and they'd be elected differently (one by a head-to-head, the other from a list) but they'd be almost certainly the same party. Because proportional for only one seat isn't that much different to fptp. You probably know this, and anyway who cares about the small fry?

It won't work all that well for states entitled to 2 (4 under your system) or even 3. The threshold for a minor party to get elected there is (I think) 25% but maybe voters will vote differently in a different system.

Smaller states will definitely be more of an issue to deal with in this MMP format. There are seven at-large states (those with only one House district) and divvying up votes there will not work too well.
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Nobel Hobos 2
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Nobel Hobos 2 » Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:28 am

Outer Sparta wrote:
Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:
Runoff elections, where usually voters have to go to the polls twice. Maybe more.

It's just plain unnecessary. INSTANT runoff serves the same purpose, but voters only need to go to the polls once.

Even the French system though, gives voters more than two candidates to choose between. The candidates are only weakly associated with parties, too: once elected they get up a coalition in the Parliament (unless there's an outright majority party already) and this weakens the link. They can't campaign just for one party, because they might need other parties once in power.

Actually, what don't you like about it?

Runoff voting should be done instantly instead of spread across like a month later. At least in the US, runoff elections come with less turnout than the general or primary one.


And in France too. That's the problem, people whose candidate lost in the first round don't bother. With instant runoff they have the option* of giving a second preference which then counts if their first choice is eliminated. And a third if both 1st and 2nd are eliminated, and so on for the whole ballot.

*This is contentious actually. Voters probably should be allowed to let their vote expire if there is one candidate and one only they like. But it screws up the system if too many voters do that.

Here, it used to be required to number I think 10 boxes (for Senate, or the whole ticket for the Parliament), they changed it before the last Federal election and nothing went wrong. It's not to say it couldn't go wrong in future.

Btw, the only skill required to cast a valid ballot is that you can count. But that's not as easy as it sounds: for Senate, not a lot of people even try to count to 130 (?) but vote "above the line" instead, ie by parties. Even so 5% of voters screwed up their ballot so badly it was invalid. I voted below the line, so I could preference a couple of candidates I particularly liked ... and I screwed it up. The final number I put in was one short and I had to ask for a replacement ballot. Counting while moving all around the paper checking parties and names, not that easy.

I'm not recommending our Federal Senate system, though it has wonderful features and always one or two surprising results (Motoring Enthusiast Party's Ricky Muir in 2013, got in with 0.51% of voters choosing him first, but plenty of low preferences) ... because it's just too complicated for the average voter to know where their vote will end up. Also sometimes it takes four weeks to count the vote.
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South Odreria 2
Minister
 
Posts: 3063
Founded: Aug 26, 2019
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby South Odreria 2 » Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:51 am

Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:
Outer Sparta wrote:Runoff voting should be done instantly instead of spread across like a month later. At least in the US, runoff elections come with less turnout than the general or primary one.


And in France too. That's the problem, people whose candidate lost in the first round don't bother. With instant runoff they have the option* of giving a second preference which then counts if their first choice is eliminated. And a third if both 1st and 2nd are eliminated, and so on for the whole ballot.

*This is contentious actually. Voters probably should be allowed to let their vote expire if there is one candidate and one only they like. But it screws up the system if too many voters do that.

Here, it used to be required to number I think 10 boxes (for Senate, or the whole ticket for the Parliament), they changed it before the last Federal election and nothing went wrong. It's not to say it couldn't go wrong in future.

Btw, the only skill required to cast a valid ballot is that you can count. But that's not as easy as it sounds: for Senate, not a lot of people even try to count to 130 (?) but vote "above the line" instead, ie by parties. Even so 5% of voters screwed up their ballot so badly it was invalid. I voted below the line, so I could preference a couple of candidates I particularly liked ... and I screwed it up. The final number I put in was one short and I had to ask for a replacement ballot. Counting while moving all around the paper checking parties and names, not that easy.

I'm not recommending our Federal Senate system, though it has wonderful features and always one or two surprising results (Motoring Enthusiast Party's Ricky Muir in 2013, got in with 0.51% of voters choosing him first, but plenty of low preferences) ... because it's just too complicated for the average voter to know where their vote will end up. Also sometimes it takes four weeks to count the vote.

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Greater Miami Shores
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Posts: 5533
Founded: Aug 06, 2010
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Greater Miami Shores » Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:09 am

Black Republicans are not mentally ill persons, they are Black Republicans.
I am a Proud Republican Cultist supporter of President Donald J Trump of the USA for Making America Great Again according to my Political views and those who agree with me and I wear it with Pride and Honor. Their is nothing wrong with it. President Ronald Reagan the original Make America Great Again President greatest American President and Gentleman, they don't make them like President Reagan anymore. First Lady Nancy Reagan greatest American First Lady. Am native Cuban American Hispanic Latino conservative nationalist Republican with slight economic Libertarian streak. Am worlds greatest Insomniac, I beat the worlds record every day, President Trump second greatest Insomniac with his 3 am tweets, I can beat anytime, Trump is no gentleman.

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The Black Forrest
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby The Black Forrest » Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:16 am

Greater Miami Shores wrote:Black Republicans are not mentally ill persons, they are Black Republicans.


Ok?

You might want to quote or link something on that as people will simply go :blink:
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Zurkerx
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Founded: Jan 20, 2011
Anarchy

Postby Zurkerx » Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:18 am

Biden releases plan to rebuild and protect supply chains for future pandemics.

Greater Miami Shores wrote:Black Republicans are not mentally ill persons, they are Black Republicans.


I'm not sure what provoked this comment, but yes, Black Republicans are not mentally ill kind of people. They are certainly rare though.
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The Alma Mater
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Postby The Alma Mater » Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:21 am

Greater Miami Shores wrote:Black Republicans are not mentally ill persons, they are Black Republicans.


I am uncertain if Kanye West can be described as "sane".
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Greater Miami Shores
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Capitalist Paradise

Postby Greater Miami Shores » Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:23 am

Zurkerx wrote:Biden releases plan to rebuild and protect supply chains for future pandemics.

Greater Miami Shores wrote:Black Republicans are not mentally ill persons, they are Black Republicans.


I'm not sure what provoked this comment, but yes, Black Republicans are not mentally ill kind of people. They are certainly rare though.

This is not a report, I don't usually like to do so. Black Forrest stated a few times on this thread to me Black Republicans are mentally ill persons, no matter how he qualifies it or tries to spin it, like morons, and especially if they support Trump. It would take me time going through many posts to find the quotes.
I am a Proud Republican Cultist supporter of President Donald J Trump of the USA for Making America Great Again according to my Political views and those who agree with me and I wear it with Pride and Honor. Their is nothing wrong with it. President Ronald Reagan the original Make America Great Again President greatest American President and Gentleman, they don't make them like President Reagan anymore. First Lady Nancy Reagan greatest American First Lady. Am native Cuban American Hispanic Latino conservative nationalist Republican with slight economic Libertarian streak. Am worlds greatest Insomniac, I beat the worlds record every day, President Trump second greatest Insomniac with his 3 am tweets, I can beat anytime, Trump is no gentleman.

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No State Here
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Founded: Jun 10, 2019
Anarchy

Postby No State Here » Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:27 am

Greater Miami Shores wrote:Black Republicans are not mentally ill persons, they are Black Republicans.

They’re not, and many have pretty compelling reasons for voting the way they do.

Regardless, being republican doesn’t necessarily mean being a Trump supporter
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Greater Miami Shores
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Capitalist Paradise

Postby Greater Miami Shores » Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:31 am

No State Here wrote:
Greater Miami Shores wrote:Black Republicans are not mentally ill persons, they are Black Republicans.

They’re not, and many have pretty compelling reasons for voting the way they do.

Regardless, being republican doesn’t necessarily mean being a Trump supporter

Thank you, we agree Black Republicans supporters of President Ronald Reagan and President Trump are not mentally ill persons. Which was in the original post of mine. Which a certain poster posted they are mentally ill persons especially if they support Trump.
I am a Proud Republican Cultist supporter of President Donald J Trump of the USA for Making America Great Again according to my Political views and those who agree with me and I wear it with Pride and Honor. Their is nothing wrong with it. President Ronald Reagan the original Make America Great Again President greatest American President and Gentleman, they don't make them like President Reagan anymore. First Lady Nancy Reagan greatest American First Lady. Am native Cuban American Hispanic Latino conservative nationalist Republican with slight economic Libertarian streak. Am worlds greatest Insomniac, I beat the worlds record every day, President Trump second greatest Insomniac with his 3 am tweets, I can beat anytime, Trump is no gentleman.

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Vassenor
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Founded: Nov 11, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Vassenor » Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:37 am

No State Here wrote:
Greater Miami Shores wrote:Black Republicans are not mentally ill persons, they are Black Republicans.

They’re not, and many have pretty compelling reasons for voting the way they do.

Regardless, being republican doesn’t necessarily mean being a Trump supporter


Compelling reasons such as what?
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Greater Miami Shores
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Capitalist Paradise

Postby Greater Miami Shores » Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:42 am

Vassenor wrote:
No State Here wrote:They’re not, and many have pretty compelling reasons for voting the way they do.

Regardless, being republican doesn’t necessarily mean being a Trump supporter


Compelling reasons such as what?

Compelling reasons such as they have different, economic and political and social views, and they should be respected for it, while strongly disagreeing with them, it is called Democracy and respect.
I am a Proud Republican Cultist supporter of President Donald J Trump of the USA for Making America Great Again according to my Political views and those who agree with me and I wear it with Pride and Honor. Their is nothing wrong with it. President Ronald Reagan the original Make America Great Again President greatest American President and Gentleman, they don't make them like President Reagan anymore. First Lady Nancy Reagan greatest American First Lady. Am native Cuban American Hispanic Latino conservative nationalist Republican with slight economic Libertarian streak. Am worlds greatest Insomniac, I beat the worlds record every day, President Trump second greatest Insomniac with his 3 am tweets, I can beat anytime, Trump is no gentleman.

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Vassenor
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Vassenor » Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:45 am

Greater Miami Shores wrote:
Vassenor wrote:
Compelling reasons such as what?

Compelling reasons such as they have different, economic and political and social views, and they should be respected for it, while strongly disagreeing with them, it is called Democracy and respect.


Different views such as what?
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Nobel Hobos 2
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Postby Nobel Hobos 2 » Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:48 am

Democracy requires politics, and politics doesn't have much time for respect.

I don't even pretend to respect my opponents. I just try to remain civil.
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Northern Davincia
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Postby Northern Davincia » Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:49 am

Vassenor wrote:
No State Here wrote:They’re not, and many have pretty compelling reasons for voting the way they do.

Regardless, being republican doesn’t necessarily mean being a Trump supporter


Compelling reasons such as what?

I suspect many black Republicans are business owners and align themselves with fiscal conservatives. Otherwise, they're religious conservatives.
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Greater Miami Shores
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Capitalist Paradise

Postby Greater Miami Shores » Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:50 am

Vassenor wrote:
Greater Miami Shores wrote:Compelling reasons such as they have different, economic and political and social views, and they should be respected for it, while strongly disagreeing with them, it is called Democracy and respect.


Different views such as what?

In this particular case being Black Republican supporters of President Ronald Reagan and President Trump. This whole thing started when I stated shame on the black African American Pastor for calling Black African American Republican supporters mentally ill persons. Not the first time, a few times, that a certain nation person has called Black African American supporters of the Republicans mentally ill persons.
Last edited by Greater Miami Shores on Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:52 am, edited 2 times in total.
I am a Proud Republican Cultist supporter of President Donald J Trump of the USA for Making America Great Again according to my Political views and those who agree with me and I wear it with Pride and Honor. Their is nothing wrong with it. President Ronald Reagan the original Make America Great Again President greatest American President and Gentleman, they don't make them like President Reagan anymore. First Lady Nancy Reagan greatest American First Lady. Am native Cuban American Hispanic Latino conservative nationalist Republican with slight economic Libertarian streak. Am worlds greatest Insomniac, I beat the worlds record every day, President Trump second greatest Insomniac with his 3 am tweets, I can beat anytime, Trump is no gentleman.

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Rojava Free State
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Postby Rojava Free State » Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:52 am

Greater Miami Shores wrote:
Vassenor wrote:
Different views such as what?

In this particular case being Black Republican supporters of President Ronald Reagan and President Trump. This whole thing started when I stated shame on the black African American Pastor for calling Black African American Republican supporters mentally ill persons. Not the first time, second time or third time this has happened, that a certain nation has called Black African American supporters of the Republicans mentally ill persons.


First off, you're doing the thing again. Black African American? Bro we're pretty well aware that when you tell us about an African American pastor, the guy isn't a Boer. We know he's black, and it's kinda redundant.

And second off, black Reagan supporters were a real irony considering all the serious harm the Reagan administration did to Black America. I would say Reagan was worse than Trump for them, since he looked the other way as Contra cocaine was peddled into the ghetto but then would push mandatory drug sentencing that put addicts into prison for decades instead of into rehab.
Last edited by Rojava Free State on Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Ors Might
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Postby Ors Might » Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:52 am

Vassenor wrote:
No State Here wrote:They’re not, and many have pretty compelling reasons for voting the way they do.

Regardless, being republican doesn’t necessarily mean being a Trump supporter


Compelling reasons such as what?

Compelling reasons such as politically aligning more with the Republican Party than the Democratic Party, I would think.
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Greater Miami Shores
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Capitalist Paradise

Postby Greater Miami Shores » Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:55 am

Rojava Free State wrote:
Greater Miami Shores wrote:In this particular case being Black Republican supporters of President Ronald Reagan and President Trump. This whole thing started when I stated shame on the black African American Pastor for calling Black African American Republican supporters mentally ill persons. Not the first time, second time or third time this has happened, that a certain nation has called Black African American supporters of the Republicans mentally ill persons.


First off, you're doing the thing again. Black African American? Bro we're pretty well aware that when you tell us about an African American pastor, the guy isn't a Boer. We know he's black, and it's kinda redundant.

And second off, black Reagan supporters were a real irony considering all the serious harm the Reagan administration did to Black America.

The Point is no one should call African American supporters of Republicans and Presidents Ronald Reagan and Trump mentally ill persons, when they strongly disagree with them, which they are not mentally ill persons. It is very disrespectful and undemocratic to do so. No matter how they try to spin it, qualify it or justify it.
Last edited by Greater Miami Shores on Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
I am a Proud Republican Cultist supporter of President Donald J Trump of the USA for Making America Great Again according to my Political views and those who agree with me and I wear it with Pride and Honor. Their is nothing wrong with it. President Ronald Reagan the original Make America Great Again President greatest American President and Gentleman, they don't make them like President Reagan anymore. First Lady Nancy Reagan greatest American First Lady. Am native Cuban American Hispanic Latino conservative nationalist Republican with slight economic Libertarian streak. Am worlds greatest Insomniac, I beat the worlds record every day, President Trump second greatest Insomniac with his 3 am tweets, I can beat anytime, Trump is no gentleman.

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Jerzylvania
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Father Knows Best State

Postby Jerzylvania » Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:59 am

Greater Miami Shores wrote:
No State Here wrote:They’re not, and many have pretty compelling reasons for voting the way they do.

Regardless, being republican doesn’t necessarily mean being a Trump supporter

Thank you, we agree Black Republicans supporters of President Ronald Reagan and President Trump are not mentally ill persons. Which was in the original post of mine. Which a certain poster posted they are mentally ill persons especially if they support Trump.

Wait a minute. Why link Reagan and Trump together for any reason? They are decades apart and two other GOP presidents have served in the meantime. The apropos President to link to Trump is Richard M. Nixon.

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If Ronald Reagan could speak today, I seriously doubt he'd support Trump if for no other reason than Donny's twisted version of family values.
Last edited by Jerzylvania on Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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The Black Forrest
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Postby The Black Forrest » Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:01 am

Greater Miami Shores wrote:
Zurkerx wrote:Biden releases plan to rebuild and protect supply chains for future pandemics.



I'm not sure what provoked this comment, but yes, Black Republicans are not mentally ill kind of people. They are certainly rare though.

This is not a report, I don't usually like to do so. Black Forrest stated a few times on this thread to me Black Republicans are mentally ill persons, no matter how he qualifies it or tries to spin it, like morons, and especially if they support Trump. It would take me time going through many posts to find the quotes.


This is the third time you have said I called Black Republicans mentally ill.

Produce the quote.

Thinking somebody is a moron is not a declaration of being mentally ill.

File a report or produce the evidence of said action. You don't get to hide behind "but I have too many posts" There is the magical ability called search.
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Gormwood
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Postby Gormwood » Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:08 am

Tammy Duckworth blasts back at lame criticism by Communal Property and Trumpologist Tucker Carlson

Democratic Sen. Tammy Duckworth, a US Army veteran who lost both of her legs while serving in Iraq, rebuked Tucker Carlson after the conservative Fox News host attacked her on Monday night and suggested that she hates America.

"Does @TuckerCarlson want to walk a mile in my legs and then tell me whether or not I love America?" Duckworth wrote on Twitter.
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