US Anti-Police Protests and Riots Thread II

[Fahran]

I'd ask what it is you think you just proved, but I gotta be honest, I don't really give a shit.

Read up. I wasn't gainsaying because I didn't deny anything. And you still haven't addressed the argument that was made. You're changing the subject and talking past me.

Hack is hack, I'm not going to commit to black hole of people insisting they aren't or that they're actually using a sophisticated argument technique. It's clear to anyone paying attention, it's not going to stop. Carry on.

Will do.

While I'm not in a great mood and you don't seem to think very highly of me at the moment, I do hope you have a lovely day.

[Glorious Hong Kong]

That's a lot of words to not actually refute or even address the argument that was made. But, since discussions of gaslighting is the exclusive domain of "you guys", perhaps you should know a good deal more about it, how not to resort to it, and how not to make apologias for it. Also, I don't remember calling anyone a cuck.

He’s actually criticizing you for using good debate style. One of the most effective ways to convince someone of something is to begin with the other person’s principles or arguments and to show how their principles lead to your position. You don’t have to start by convincing a person his base principles are incorrect in most cases - this is very difficult and usually results in double Down syndrome - but can actually argue from the point that their principles are correct and therefore they should be on your side.

“Adopt[ing] the arguments of liberals” just means you’re trying to convince liberals your position is correct based on their principles, instead of trying to beat your principles into them.

Conservatives promoting liberal principles is a good thing whether it's a form of ideological theft or otherwise. It's part of the reason I switched sides. They've done a good job of convincing me.

[Glorious Hong Kong]

Black Lives Matter likes to pretend this kind of shit doesn't happen. It does.

Not saying George Floyd or Jacob Blake were in the wrong or justifying the shootings, but this would explain why U.S. cops are so trigger-happy these days.

[Vassenor]

Black Lives Matter likes to pretend this kind of shit doesn't happen. It does.

Not saying George Floyd or Jacob Blake were in the wrong or justifying the shootings, but this would explain why U.S. cops are so trigger-happy these days.

What kind of shit? Blind dropping twitter links does not an argument make.

[Juristonia]

Black Lives Matter likes to pretend this kind of shit doesn't happen. It does.

Not saying George Floyd or Jacob Blake were in the wrong or justifying the shootings, but this would explain why U.S. cops are so trigger-happy these days.

"I'm not saying the thing but I'm saying the thing"

[Ifreann]

Uh, no they haven't. Gaslighting someone involves being in communication with them in some way, it's a form of abuse whereby the victim is made to doubt their own memory and perception by the abuser. People saying that Rittenhouse is a white supremacist aren't gaslighting him, not unless they're lying to him to convince him that he's a white supremacist and insane for not remembering this about himself.

Victim-blaming is a form of gaslighting. When you publish dozens and dozens of articles about how a seventeen year old kid who was assaulted and chased by a crowd of men is a cold-blooded murderer, a right-wing terrorist, a white supremacist, or acting disproportionately, in spite of all of the available evidence, you're engaging in attempted manipulation of both the kid and the public to make them believe that actions that most would normally consider morally acceptable, unproblematic, and a form of self-defense to be the opposite. That's gaslighting.

No it isn't. People disagreeing with you isn't a form of abuse. It isn't gaslighting to say things about Rittenhouse that he might think are inaccurate or even malicious lies. Mere lies are not gaslighting, defamation isn't gaslighting, gaslighting is about undermining someone's sanity. If I call Rittenhouse a terrorist when you think he isn't one, I'm not trying to make you lose your mind.

[Nobel Hobos 2]

I keep forgetting those exist...

It is strange that it disappeared so recently, judging by when it was archived. Could it perhaps be some sort of error?

He is dead no need to keep him up.

I doubt a little website like that updates every few days with new deaths.

Unless ... well maybe sex offender register laws don't give the website protection to identify sex offenders who, um, aren't people any more, so they're concerned about his relatives suing them. So they edit the site just for high profile cases.

Sex offender registers make it impossible for a discharged sex offender to get a fair jury trial, in any high profile case, whether as plaintiff or defendent. If it's fair, it should apply to all serious crimes. But imo it's not fair: lifelong criminal record is just a terrible idea.

[Nobel Hobos 2]

If you live in a world where a night out ends with three people shot, two of them fatally, is "morally acceptable" and "unproblematic" ... why don't you move?

The worst night of my life I almost got killed, and I blame myself for my foolish role in that. But I don't feel too guilty about it, because no-one actually died.

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

If you live in a world where a night out ends with three people shot, two of them fatally, is "morally acceptable" and "unproblematic" ... why don't you move?

The worst night of my life I almost got killed, and I blame myself for my foolish role in that. But I don't feel too guilty about it, because no-one actually died.

Moving is prohibitively expensive for the people must fucked by the racist system.

[Zapato]

Black Lives Matter likes to pretend this kind of shit doesn't happen. It does.

Not saying George Floyd or Jacob Blake were in the wrong or justifying the shootings, but this would explain why U.S. cops are so trigger-happy these days.

Yeah, I think it would, as it shows troopers who are bad at their jobs.

Watch the whole thing. It's illuminating, with the excessive use of force, the unclear commands, the inability to keep their weaponry secure, the unneccessarily long tasing, and the failure to account for potential mental health issues (he was suffering from anxiety and paranoia).

"Stop resisting" they shout as they punch him in the face and tase him.
"Get on your back" they shout as they punch him while he's on his back.

Good point tho. US cops are trigger happy because they are poorly trained.

[Nobel Hobos 2]

If you live in a world where a night out ends with three people shot, two of them fatally, is "morally acceptable" and "unproblematic" ... why don't you move?

The worst night of my life I almost got killed, and I blame myself for my foolish role in that. But I don't feel too guilty about it, because no-one actually died.

Moving is prohibitively expensive for the people must fucked by the racist system.

It might be a bad guess, but I doubt Fahran is one of them. Point was that result should not be anyone's expectation when they go somewhere they don't need to go (just to "get involved" or whatever he was thinking) ... and it's possible to see past choices as foolish without needing to feel guilty about them.

"The kid did nothing wrong" is true in one sense: he did nothing to feel guilty about. Except maybe carrying a gun ...

Anyway, the kid did something wrong in another sense: he was a fool to even be there, in that he did something against his own best interests. He should count himself lucky to survive it ... and live his life as though it is worth two other men's lives.

[Slaughter None]

Say that there is a Systemic Racism problem. BLM still hasn't done much for black people instead of focusing on absolutely innocent people such as Breonna Taylor they support Jacob Blake who was armed during his arrest and had an active warrant for his arrest for domestic abuse and sexual violence nobody cared about Bernell Trammell instead the BLM "protesters" and I say that as sarcasm, harass Rand Paul and shout at him with "say her name" as he leaves the RNC the person who introduced the "Justice for Breonna Taylor" act. Does fighting for racial justice justify the violence, looting and arsony? Does it justify killing of innocent people or tearing down and vandalizing statues (that are not confederate). People tell me it's because they have tried peace and it hasn't worked citing examples of great revolutions. When was peace tried? Just days after Death of George Floyd Minneapolis started burning.

[Slaughter None]

Say that there is a Systemic Racism problem. BLM still hasn't done much for black people instead of focusing on absolutely innocent people such as Breonna Taylor they support Jacob Blake who was armed during his arrest and had an active warrant for his arrest for domestic abuse and sexual violence nobody cared about Bernell Trammell instead the BLM "protesters" and I say that as sarcasm, harass Rand Paul and shout at him with "say her name" as he leaves the RNC the person who introduced the "Justice for Breonna Taylor" act. Does fighting for racial justice justify the violence, looting and arsony? Does it justify killing of innocent people or tearing down and vandalizing statues (that are not confederate). People tell me it's because they have tried peace and it hasn't worked citing examples of great revolutions. When was peace tried? Just days after Death of George Floyd Minneapolis started burning.

Does it justify the villifying of all the cops(even black ones) by "defunding" them, cutting their budgets or shooting them?

[Page]

Say that there is a Systemic Racism problem. BLM still hasn't done much for black people instead of focusing on absolutely innocent people such as Breonna Taylor they support Jacob Blake who was armed during his arrest and had an active warrant for his arrest for domestic abuse and sexual violence nobody cared about Bernell Trammell instead the BLM "protesters" and I say that as sarcasm, harass Rand Paul and shout at him with "say her name" as he leaves the RNC the person who introduced the "Justice for Breonna Taylor" act. Does fighting for racial justice justify the violence, looting and arsony? Does it justify killing of innocent people or tearing down and vandalizing statues (that are not confederate). People tell me it's because they have tried peace and it hasn't worked citing examples of great revolutions. When was peace tried? Just days after Death of George Floyd Minneapolis started burning.

Does it justify the villifying of all the cops(even black ones) by "defunding" them, cutting their budgets or shooting them?

Defunding the police isn't meant to vilify or punish cops, it's about reallocating money to social services that will make us all safer by dealing with the causes of crime rather than just reacting to it.

[Slaughter None]

Does it justify the villifying of all the cops(even black ones) by "defunding" them, cutting their budgets or shooting them?

Defunding the police isn't meant to vilify or punish cops, it's about reallocating money to social services that will make us all safer by dealing with the causes of crime rather than just reacting to it.

That's not what's happening, police budgets have been slashed so much so that the previous commissioner of the Minneapolis police dept. resigned instead of providing proper funding to retrain police officers, they have cut their budgets, shot police officers and "asked" them to refrain from doing their duty.

[Nobel Hobos 2]

shot police officers

I think you mean "fired" them

[Fahran]

Conservatives promoting liberal principles is a good thing whether it's a form of ideological theft or otherwise. It's part of the reason I switched sides. They've done a good job of convincing me.

I'd like to think that honesty and not gaslighting people are more universal principles.

[Vassenor]

Say that there is a Systemic Racism problem. BLM still hasn't done much for black people instead of focusing on absolutely innocent people such as Breonna Taylor they support Jacob Blake who was armed during his arrest and had an active warrant for his arrest for domestic abuse and sexual violence nobody cared about Bernell Trammell instead the BLM "protesters" and I say that as sarcasm, harass Rand Paul and shout at him with "say her name" as he leaves the RNC the person who introduced the "Justice for Breonna Taylor" act. Does fighting for racial justice justify the violence, looting and arsony? Does it justify killing of innocent people or tearing down and vandalizing statues (that are not confederate). People tell me it's because they have tried peace and it hasn't worked citing examples of great revolutions. When was peace tried? Just days after Death of George Floyd Minneapolis started burning.

So you consider charging a man with assault because rounds fired at him by police hit bystanders to not be an example of systemic racism?

[Valrifell]

Conservatives promoting liberal principles is a good thing whether it's a form of ideological theft or otherwise. It's part of the reason I switched sides. They've done a good job of convincing me.

I'd like to think that honesty and not gaslighting people are more universal principles.

Let's not pretend that any online political faction is exactly an idyllic beacon of truth and honesty these days.

[Fahran]

No it isn't. People disagreeing with you isn't a form of abuse. It isn't gaslighting to say things about Rittenhouse that he might think are inaccurate or even malicious lies. Mere lies are not gaslighting, defamation isn't gaslighting, gaslighting is about undermining someone's sanity. If I call Rittenhouse a terrorist when you think he isn't one, I'm not trying to make you lose your mind.

I didn't say you were gaslighting me. I said media outlets and pundits are gaslighting Kyle Rittenhouse by the same metric they often employ to claim that Trump is gaslighting the country. You don't have to be successful in getting a person to question their memory, perception, or judgement to be guilty of gaslighting, especially not in the context of political discussions. If you maliciously lie about someone's motives and behavior repeatedly with the goal of convincing as many people as possible that they're unreasonable, a terrorist, or a violent extremist, in overt contradiction to the available evidence, you're engaging in textbook gaslighting, at least if the term can be relevant to public life at all.

Mind you, you're more than welcome to argue that gaslighting is an irrelevant or inappropriate term in the context of political life but that has to extend to everyone as well. You can't, for instance, believe that Trump is engaging in gaslighting while maintaining that Rittenhouse has not been subjected to it without some level of cognitive dissonance. Psychologists such as Bryant Welch have used the term often enough in reference to public life that I'm a bit surprised that the argument is controversial.

Let's not pretend that any online political faction is exactly an idyllic beacon of truth and honesty these days.

That was the actual argument I made at the beginning of this discussion. I never, for instance, implied that the political Right doesn't engage in gaslighting of its own. In fact, I mentioned a particular instance in which I felt that many right-wing pundits do engage in gaslighting and victim-blaming. This is why I wrote so dryly in resposne to the accusation of gainsaying. Because it made no sense in the context and simply served to ignore the point that had been raised.

[Fahran]

Also, while we're on the subject of victim-blaming, a number of largely inaccurate claims about Jacob Blake have been circulating. A lot of these center on the presence of an alleged firearm in his vehicle or past crimes he committed. While the former might serve to exonerate the officers involved in his killing, the latter, in my estimation, is largely irrelevant so long as he had no outstanding warrants for violent felonies at the time. Blake did not have a firearm at the scene and we have no evidence to suggest any reasonable belief that he had a firearm at this time. A knife was recovered from his vehicle but, at this time, it's unclear if he brandished it or if it was simply in his vehicle. Blake did have previous charges, including a charge of third-degree sexual assault and two charges of disorderly conduct and trespassing. All of these were related to a past domestic disturbance. The criminal complaint was filed in July. He had other charges in the past that largely seem to stem from altercations but those aren't really relevant. I'm not sure if he had an outstanding warrant for the charges I mentioned.

Source

At this time, we also have no evidence suggesting that the men killed by Rittenhouse were ever charged or convicted of sexual assault. Allegations against Rosenbaum have been circulated by people like Andy Ngo but, at this time, there's no corroborration from state databases or reputable publications to my knowledge. Additionally, a couple lawyers have informed me that it's unlikely information would have been removed from databases so shortly after someone's death. So be wary of unsourced claims.

[Celritannia]

Also, while we're on the subject of victim-blaming, a number of largely inaccurate claims about Jacob Blake have been circulating. A lot of these center on the presence of an alleged firearm in his vehicle or past crimes he committed. While the former might serve to exonerate the officers involved in his killing, the latter, in my estimation, is largely irrelevant so long as he had no outstanding warrants for violent felonies at the time. Blake did not have a firearm at the scene and we have no evidence to suggest any reasonable belief that he had a firearm at this time. A knife was recovered from his vehicle but, at this time, it's unclear if he brandished it or if it was simply in his vehicle. Blake did have previous charges, including a charge of third-degree sexual assault and two charges of disorderly conduct and trespassing. All of these were related to a past domestic disturbance. The criminal complaint was filed in July. He had other charges in the past that largely seem to stem from altercations but those aren't really relevant. I'm not sure if he had an outstanding warrant for the charges I mentioned.

Source

And none of this excuses a police officer grabbing onto his shirt and shooting him in the back several times, knowing his children were in the back.

[Gravlen]

Black Lives Matter likes to pretend this kind of shit doesn't happen. It does.

Not saying George Floyd or Jacob Blake were in the wrong or justifying the shootings, but this would explain why U.S. cops are so trigger-happy these days.

Such examples doesn't excuse or justify this kind of behaviour.

(Full article)

[Fahran]

Such examples doesn't excuse or justify this kind of behaviour.

(Full article)

They definitely do not.

[Slaughter None]

Say that there is a Systemic Racism problem. BLM still hasn't done much for black people instead of focusing on absolutely innocent people such as Breonna Taylor they support Jacob Blake who was armed during his arrest and had an active warrant for his arrest for domestic abuse and sexual violence nobody cared about Bernell Trammell instead the BLM "protesters" and I say that as sarcasm, harass Rand Paul and shout at him with "say her name" as he leaves the RNC the person who introduced the "Justice for Breonna Taylor" act. Does fighting for racial justice justify the violence, looting and arsony? Does it justify killing of innocent people or tearing down and vandalizing statues (that are not confederate). People tell me it's because they have tried peace and it hasn't worked citing examples of great revolutions. When was peace tried? Just days after Death of George Floyd Minneapolis started burning.

So you consider charging a man with assault because rounds fired at him by police hit bystanders to not be an example of systemic racism?

I have read your article but it doesn't state the specifics nor there is any footage so I cannot state my opinion until we get some more information and also I was talking about Jacob Blake.