US Anti-Police Protests and Riots Thread II

[Upper Nan]

Well, it probably is not entirely irrelevant. Considering the cop apparantly knew Floyd and his violent history, that Floyd was yelling he could not breathe well before any cop even touched him and that the team that arrested him was pretty multiracial one can wonder if Floyd truly was the best posterchild for the anti-police protests.

Especially when so many other examples exist...

You would think this. Why make Floyd the martyr? It's confusing.

But then you realize it was never about George Floyd.

It was never just about George Floyd. It's not like everything was all peachy keen until Floyd got killed and everyone just decided to be upset. It's the fact that the police keep murdering black people at an inordinate rate, along with other racial injustices in the American criminal justice system. It was the tipping point, not the sole factor.

[Upper Nan]

You would think this. Why make Floyd the martyr? It's confusing.

But then you realize it was never about George Floyd.

True. But they made him the posterchild. And that was a silly choice, as evidenced by the fact that even now people are describing him as a criminal that deserved it.

People would do that regardless of who he was. Remember when Botham Jean was murdered by that police officer who shot him in his apartment because she thought it was hers? People immediately started trying to justify it by any means they could (including a report claiming he had gasp marijuana! in his apartment--I don't recall if the report was actually true or not, but the fact it was brought up at all as a justification is the issue). Murder is murder, quit trying to excuse it with irrelevant nonsense.

[Loben III]

You would think this. Why make Floyd the martyr? It's confusing.

But then you realize it was never about George Floyd.

It was never just about George Floyd. It's not like everything was all peachy keen until Floyd got killed and everyone just decided to be upset. It's the fact that the police keep murdering black people at an inordinate rate, along with other racial injustices in the American criminal justice system. It was the tipping point, not the sole factor.

ok how many black people were killed by police in the year 2020 prior to Floyd?

it better be in the thousands or the INORDINATE RATE!!1111 bit sounds lot like bullshit.

[Upper Nan]

It was never just about George Floyd. It's not like everything was all peachy keen until Floyd got killed and everyone just decided to be upset. It's the fact that the police keep murdering black people at an inordinate rate, along with other racial injustices in the American criminal justice system. It was the tipping point, not the sole factor.

ok how many black people were killed by police in the year 2020 prior to Floyd?

it better be in the thousands or the INORDINATE RATE!!1111 bit sounds lot like bullshit.

As if 2020 is the only year police have killed black people? What a nonsensical and arbitrary cut-off point.

[Bear Stearns]

ok how many black people were killed by police in the year 2020 prior to Floyd?

it better be in the thousands or the INORDINATE RATE!!1111 bit sounds lot like bullshit.

As if 2020 is the only year police have killed black people? What a nonsensical and arbitrary cut-off point.

We can go back to 1980 :^)

[The Alma Mater]

True. But they made him the posterchild. And that was a silly choice, as evidenced by the fact that even now people are describing him as a criminal that deserved it.

People would do that regardless of who he was. Remember when Botham Jean was murdered by that police officer who shot him in his apartment because she thought it was hers? People immediately started trying to justify it by any means they could (including a report claiming he had gasp marijuana! in his apartment--I don't recall if the report was actually true or not, but the fact it was brought up at all as a justification is the issue). Murder is murder, quit trying to excuse it with irrelevant nonsense.

Was it murder then ? On the full vid you see Floyd actively resisting arresting for 20 minutes, refusing to follow orders, obviously being under the influence of something, yelling he cannot breathe several times - even when still in his car.
In all honesty I can understand why the cops stopped taking him seriously. The move used was still wrong; so punishment for that is justified - but insisting it was callous murder "because blacks do not matter" seems silly now.

While there, as mentioned, are 1000s of legit cases people could have used instead.

[Loben III]

ok how many black people were killed by police in the year 2020 prior to Floyd?

it better be in the thousands or the INORDINATE RATE!!1111 bit sounds lot like bullshit.

As if 2020 is the only year police have killed black people? What a nonsensical and arbitrary cut-off point.

answer the question.

[Upper Nan]

As if 2020 is the only year police have killed black people? What a nonsensical and arbitrary cut-off point.

We can go back to 1980 :^)

The problem is that reliable data doesn't go back that far. While the FBI does keep statistics of police killings, they're both voluntary and self-reported. The Washington Post started tracking data only in 2014. What they found is that while ~50% of those killed by police on average are white, the amount of blacks killed is proportionally higher vis a vis their smaller total population.

This is the data from 2015.

This is the most recent release, from 2019.

Proportionally, blacks are killed at twice the rate of whites.

Was it murder then ? On the full vid you see Floyd actively resisting arresting for 20 minutes, refusing to follow orders, obviously being under the influence of something, yelling he cannot breathe several times - even when still in his car.
In all honesty I can understand why the cops stopped taking him seriously. The move used was still wrong; so punishment for that is justified - but insisting it was callous murder "because blacks do not matter" seems silly now.

While there, as mentioned, are 1000s of legit cases people could have used instead.

Ultimately, it's up the court to decide, but in my opinion it certainly qualifies as murder. Even taking into account his behavior beforehand, the officer had every reason to know that the move he was using was dangerous and potentially life-threatening; there are many ways to restrain people don't involve literally choking them. At the same time, the officers themselves were not in a life-threatening situation. Floyd had no weapons, so deadly force is completely unjustified in any event, even accounting for any erratic behavior from possible intoxication, especially given that Floyd made no overtly threatening moves towards the officers themselves and by the time he was killed was completely immobilized and not in any position to be a threat. Even if you want to remove any possible racial element from this (which is a tough ask, but we'll do it for the sake of argument), Chauvin's actions were callous and irresponsible. At best you could maybe argue for negligence (or maybe even manslaughter) rather than homicide, but in any event the officers absolutely violated their duty of care for no legitimate reason.

[Des-Bal]

It was never just about George Floyd. It's not like everything was all peachy keen until Floyd got killed and everyone just decided to be upset. It's the fact that the police keep murdering black people at an inordinate rate, along with other racial injustices in the American criminal justice system. It was the tipping point, not the sole factor.

Black men get shot by the police disproportionately often.
Police get shot by black people disproportionately often.
Officers who shoot black people are disproportionately black.

If you want to paint police killings as racist murders then you are talking about the racist, murderous nature of black people. The police are not shooting black people for fun, that is not the issue and the more people fucking pretend it is the less possible it is to fix actual problems.

If we're talking about the factors contributing to unrest I'd note that that despite most victims of police shootings being white and most black suspects being killed by black officers it's only the cases where the officer is white and the suspect is black where we find an outpouring of national attention.

[Loben III]

We can go back to 1980 :^)

The problem is that reliable data doesn't go back that far. While the FBI does keep statistics of police killings, they're both voluntary and self-reported. The Washington Post started tracking data only in 2014. What they found is that while ~50% of those killed by police on average are white, the amount of blacks killed is proportionally higher vis a vis their smaller total population.

This is the data from 2015.

This is the most recent release, from 2019.

Proportionally, blacks are killed at twice the rate of whites.

Was it murder then ? On the full vid you see Floyd actively resisting arresting for 20 minutes, refusing to follow orders, obviously being under the influence of something, yelling he cannot breathe several times - even when still in his car.
In all honesty I can understand why the cops stopped taking him seriously. The move used was still wrong; so punishment for that is justified - but insisting it was callous murder "because blacks do not matter" seems silly now.

While there, as mentioned, are 1000s of legit cases people could have used instead.

Ultimately, it's up the court to decide, but in my opinion it certainly qualifies as murder. Even taking into account his behavior beforehand, the officer had every reason to know that the move he was using was dangerous and potentially life-threatening; there are many ways to restrain people don't involve literally choking them. At the same time, the officers themselves were not in a life-threatening situation. Floyd had no weapons, so deadly force is completely unjustified in any event, even accounting for any erratic behavior from possible intoxication, especially given that Floyd made no overtly threatening moves towards the officers themselves and by the time he was killed was completely immobilized and not in any position to be a threat. Even if you want to remove any possible racial element from this (which is a tough ask, but we'll do it for the sake of argument), Chauvin's actions were callous and irresponsible. At best you could maybe argue for negligence (or maybe even manslaughter) rather than homicide, but in any event the officers absolutely violated their duty of care for no legitimate reason.

but do blacks commit more crime at twice the rate as whites?

[Upper Nan]

As if 2020 is the only year police have killed black people? What a nonsensical and arbitrary cut-off point.

answer the question.

Why?

[Upper Nan]

It was never just about George Floyd. It's not like everything was all peachy keen until Floyd got killed and everyone just decided to be upset. It's the fact that the police keep murdering black people at an inordinate rate, along with other racial injustices in the American criminal justice system. It was the tipping point, not the sole factor.

Black men get shot by the police disproportionately often.
Police get shot by black people disproportionately often.
Officers who shoot black people are disproportionately black.

If you want to paint police killings as racist murders then you are talking about the racist, murderous nature of black people. The police are not shooting black people for fun, that is not the issue and the more people fucking pretend it is the less possible it is to fix actual problems.

If we're talking about the factors contributing to unrest I'd note that that despite most victims of police shootings being white and most black suspects being killed by black officers it's only the cases where the officer is white and the suspect is black where we find an outpouring of national attention.

It were only shootings, you might have a point. But it's not. Black people get longer sentences than whites for the same crimes, are disproportionately more likely to be arrested in-general, are more likely to be falsely imprisoned, and are also more likely to be sentenced to death. While I agree there are many problems in American policing that go beyond racism, to try and remove it entirely from the equation is pure wishful thinking.

Was it murder then ? On the full vid you see Floyd actively resisting arresting for 20 minutes, refusing to follow orders, obviously being under the influence of something, yelling he cannot breathe several times - even when still in his car.
In all honesty I can understand why the cops stopped taking him seriously. The move used was still wrong; so punishment for that is justified - but insisting it was callous murder "because blacks do not matter" seems silly now.

While there, as mentioned, are 1000s of legit cases people could have used instead.

Ultimately, it's up the court to decide, but in my opinion it certainly qualifies as murder. Even taking into account his behavior beforehand, the officer had every reason to know that the move he was using was dangerous and potentially life-threatening; there are many ways to restrain people don't involve literally choking them. At the same time, the officers themselves were not in a life-threatening situation. Floyd had no weapons, so deadly force is completely unjustified in any event, even accounting for any erratic behavior from possible intoxication, especially given that Floyd made no overtly threatening moves towards the officers themselves and by the time he was killed was completely immobilized and not in any position to be a threat. Even if you want to remove any possible racial element from this (which is a tough ask, but we'll do it for the sake of argument), Chauvin's actions were callous and irresponsible. At best you could maybe argue for negligence (or maybe even manslaughter) rather than homicide, but in any event the officers absolutely violated their duty of care for no legitimate reason.[/quote]

but do blacks commit more crime at twice the rate as whites?[/quote]
I don't know.

[Des-Bal]

It were only shootings, you might have a point. But it's not. Black people get longer sentences than whites for the same crimes, are disproportionately more likely to be arrested in-general, are more likely to be falsely imprisoned, and are also more likely to be sentenced to death. While I agree there are many problems in American policing that go beyond racism, to try and remove it entirely from the equation is pure wishful thinking.


I don't know.

Police don't handle sentencing and police don't levy the death penalty.

In terms of false imprisonment I don't know how often that's the fault of the police or to what extent it's correlated with overall likelihood to be imprisoned.

In terms of likelihood to be arrested I have similar questions, if a black offender is not arrested while a white offender is in the same circumstances in the absence of another explanation that would be evidence of racism.

Half of your points half nothing to do with the police, half are hard to evaluate, none of them have to do with shootings.


To help you with your uncertainty, broadly yes. Black people disproportionately commit crime. About half of all homicides are committed by black people.

[Upper Nan]

Police don't handle sentencing and police don't levy the death penalty.

True, but also not what I meant. That said, I can understand the miscommunication. My point was more that police brutality (which of course isn't exclusive to black people) is a manifestation of the larger flaws within the American justice system. One of those flaws is systemic racism, which comes through in police actions as much as anything is. My point isn't to say that police are evil racists who just want to murder black people all day, but that racism in the criminal justice system is pervasive and infests all aspects of it. There are, of course, plenty of non-racist police officers who really do have good intentions, but that still doesn't change the fact that racism in the law (both via the police and the courts) is a pervasive problem that needs to be addressed on all levels--not just squarely trying to lay the blame entirely at police or entirely at the courts. That's not how the real world works.

In terms of false imprisonment I don't know how often that's the fault of the police or to what extent it's correlated with overall likelihood to be imprisoned.

Not 100% sure what you mean on the second part. Can you clarify it further?

In terms of likelihood to be arrested I have similar questions, if a black offender is not arrested while a white offender is in the same circumstances in the absence of another explanation that would be evidence of racism.

It would be evidence of racism if a black offender weren't arrested for something a white offender was arrested for (with no other explanation)? I mean, racism against whom? I suppose a black person not getting arrested just because they're black could be seen as some sort of "positive racism" (like racial quotas in universities), but I'm unsure of what you're getting at?

Half of your points half nothing to do with the police,

Which, as I stated above, is because it's a problem larger than just the police. But again, I understand the confusion (and accept responsibility for it).

half are hard to evaluate,

Which ones specifically? Racial data on prison populations is readily available (you'll note that blacks compose 38% of the prison population despite being only ~13% of the general population--interestingly, Native Americans are 2.3% while only being 1.3% of the general population, so there's a bit of a discrepancy there as well).

This study from the US Sentencing Commission shows that black men are 20% more likely to serve longer sentences than white men for the same crime.

Here's an ABC News article discussing the same.

none of them have to do with shootings.

Yes, because my point was that the issue isn't just police shooting people (though, in all honesty, I should've said just "killing" instead--again, my fault for poor word choice).

To help you with your uncertainty, broadly yes. Black people disproportionately commit crime. About half of all homicides are committed by black people.

A) Do you have source for this?

B) Assuming it's true, so what? Why is it relevant?

[Kowani]

To help you with your uncertainty, broadly yes. Black people disproportionately commit crime. About half of all homicides are committed by black people.

Considering that most police response isn't for homicide (by an astronomical margin) this is not the point you think it is.

[Liriena]

Black people disproportionately commit crime.

And why do you think that is?

[Loben III]

Black people disproportionately commit crime.

And why do you think that is?

“Man I sling dope and heroin in my neighborhood because I don’t have proper opportunities.”

Good news, his class mates will be his best customers.

[Upper Nan]

And why do you think that is?

“Man I sling dope and heroin in my neighborhood because I don’t have proper opportunities.”

Good news, his class mates will be his best customers.

I mean, yeah? You act as if people turning to crime out of desperation isn't a common theme throughout human history.

[Liriena]

I mean, yeah? You act as if people turning to crime out of desperation isn't a common theme throughout human history.

I think "desperation" isn't quite accurate and explanatory enough, tbh. It doesn't quite convey the snowball of policies, the material conditions which create them and result from them, and their psychosocial consequences.

I'd rather go with "alienation" as the starting point.

[Upper Nan]

I mean, yeah? You act as if people turning to crime out of desperation isn't a common theme throughout human history.

I think "desperation" isn't quite accurate and explanatory enough, tbh. It doesn't quite convey the snowball of policies, the material conditions which create them and result from them, and their psychosocial consequences.

I'd rather go with "alienation" as the starting point.

Fair enough.

[Des-Bal]

And why do you think that is?

Same reason most things are, a series of complicated and interrelated explanations which don't lend themselves to a headline or a picket sign.

True, but also not what I meant. That said, I can understand the miscommunication. My point was more that police brutality (which of course isn't exclusive to black people) is a manifestation of the larger flaws within the American justice system. One of those flaws is systemic racism, which comes through in police actions as much as anything is. My point isn't to say that police are evil racists who just want to murder black people all day, but that racism in the criminal justice system is pervasive and infests all aspects of it. There are, of course, plenty of non-racist police officers who really do have good intentions, but that still doesn't change the fact that racism in the law (both via the police and the courts) is a pervasive problem that needs to be addressed on all levels--not just squarely trying to lay the blame entirely at police or entirely at the courts. That's not how the real world works.

You explicitly said that police keep murdering black people. Limiting the issue to racism, even focusing especially hard on the racism, is absolutely not going to fix the problem because by and large the problem with police is not that they're racist.

Not 100% sure what you mean on the second part. Can you clarify it further?

Identifying what portion of false incarcerations are the result of racism is super fucking hard and assuming they all are is super fucking irresponsible.

It would be evidence of racism if a black offender weren't arrested for something a white offender was arrested for (with no other explanation)? I mean, racism against whom? I suppose a black person not getting arrested just because they're black could be seen as some sort of "positive racism" (like racial quotas in universities), but I'm unsure of what you're getting at?

Got the races backwards.

Which, as I stated above, is because it's a problem larger than just the police. But again, I understand the confusion (and accept responsibility for it).

People are not protesting the death penalty's disproportionate application, they are not protesting the lack of legal representation within black communities, they are not protesting the tendency of juries to rule on improper grounds. The protests are about police shootings.

Which ones specifically? Racial data on prison populations is readily available (you'll note that blacks compose 38% of the prison population despite being only ~13% of the general population--interestingly, Native Americans are 2.3% while only being 1.3% of the general population, so there's a bit of a discrepancy there as well).

This study from the US Sentencing Commission shows that black men are 20% more likely to serve longer sentences than white men for the same crime.

Here's an ABC News article discussing the same.

38% being made up of 13% is about three times what you'd expect.13% out of 54% is over four times what you'd expect which is what my murder stat was about. What percentage of that disparity is just due to black people doing homicides because they are black? Absolutely zero. There are a host of factors in play and while some may be related to race none of it is just about race.

If black people are committing more crimes it would be strong evidence of racism if they were represented proportionally. To what extent does the disparity actually reflect racism?
It's not that your stats aren't good it's just that noting a disparity does not prove the cause is racism. Why are why are asian people underrepresented? Why are jewish people underrepresented? A portion of the disparity is certainly going to owe to recidivism and another portion is certainly going to owe to representation. If you have a criminal record you're not getting the same deal as a guy who doesn't, if your lawyer is a shark the state will give you a much better deal because they're not as certain they can even win at trial.

This does not mean these disparities are okay. It means the way we fix them is distressingly more complicated than just saying "racism is bad."

Yes, because my point was that the issue isn't just police shooting people (though, in all honesty, I should've said just "killing" instead--again, my fault for poor word choice).

I understand that but again the protests are.

A) Do you have source for this?

B) Assuming it's true, so what? Why is it relevant?

Explained above.

[Des-Bal]

I think "desperation" isn't quite accurate and explanatory enough, tbh. It doesn't quite convey the snowball of policies, the material conditions which create them and result from them, and their psychosocial consequences.

I'd rather go with "alienation" as the starting point.

Fuck you and your good working brain for explaining that in three sentences. I talked to someone for two days and failed to articulate that exact idea to my satisfaction.

[Upper Nan]

You explicitly said that police keep murdering black people. Limiting the issue to racism, even focusing especially hard on the racism, is absolutely not going to fix the problem because by and large the problem with police is not that they're racist.

Which I haven't done. Look, I'm trying to avoid being a dick because you actually seem like you're trying to argue in good faith, but at this point you're just actively strawmanning my argument. I feel like I've been pretty clear in my responses that I recognize the issue is far more complex than simply "police are racist," but the fact remains that racism in policing is a manifestation of the racism of the justice system (just like police brutality against drug addicts and the homeless are manifestations of systemic prejudice against them as well). You're absolutely correct that racist policing is not the core problem, but recognizing its existence is a good first step.

Identifying what portion of false incarcerations are the result of racism is super fucking hard and assuming they all are is super fucking irresponsible.

Hard but not impossible. A part of statistics is that you have to make (some) assumptions and interpretations, it's just how statistics work. Without it, they're literally just numbers with no context. False incarcerations by itself is easily measurable (just look at the total number of people exonerated after being convicted and imprisoned). After that comes the actual math parts. You break it down by race, then compare the proportion of white people falsely imprisoned vs. black people (you could also compare both to other minority groups as well). If the latter is higher than the former, then you're going to have to figure out a reason why. Of course, you're right that just writing it off entirely as racism is wrong, but so is entirely discounting it. Of course, there's an economic element to everything that often gets overlooked as well, but at the same time it's also important to factor in the relationship between race and economics in America.

Ultimately, we both agree that the issue is more complex than just racism, but I think we disagree on ways race and racism interact with the other elements of that complexity. Feel free to correct me if you disagree, though.

Got the races backwards.

I figured, but didn't want to assume.

People are not protesting the death penalty's disproportionate application, they are not protesting the lack of legal representation within black communities, they are not protesting the tendency of juries to rule on improper grounds. The protests are about police shootings.

According to whom? This is a completely unfalsifiable blanket statement.

38% being made up of 13% is about three times what you'd expect.13% out of 54% is over four times what you'd expect which is what my murder stat was about. What percentage of that disparity is just due to black people doing homicides because they are black? Absolutely zero. There are a host of factors in play and while some may be related to race none of it is just about race.

Again, literally never said it was just about race. In fact, like I said, I've been pretty clear that I don't think that

If black people are committing more crimes it would be strong evidence of racism if they were represented proportionally. To what extent does the disparity actually reflect racism?

It's impossible to know the exact extent, and you know that. This argument is banking on the fact that racism isn't a material thing that can be measured with accuracy. What we can do is ask questions. Such as, "Why is crime so prevalent in black communities?" My answer would be: "Poor education and lack of economic opportunities and financial security." Then you could ask, "Why do black communities lack good education and economic resources?" My answer would be: "Because America has been run by WASPs for its entire existence and they didn't prioritize black needs." Why didn't they prioritize their needs? Because they didn't care about them, because they didn't see them as equals.

For the record, I do think black communities themselves need to play a role in this as well. Especially in the most poor communities. There are things they can do themselves, but they're never going to have the financial resources to do it without some help from the state, which will only happen once there enough elected officials that actually care about black people's needs. There is, of course, a lot more that can be (and has been) said about this, but I'm not interested in writing a thesis at the moment.

It's not that your stats aren't good it's just that noting a disparity does not prove the cause is racism.

Correct, because noting a disparity doesn't prove anything (other than "there is a disparity"). Like I said above, statistics require interpretation in order to be meaningful.

Why are why are asian people underrepresented?

I mean, my answer would be that it's because Americans of Asian descent have typically had better financial security and education (and thus, more economic opportunities). Plus, stereotypes historically associated with Asians are generally more "positive" than those associated with black Americans (namely that Asians are "intelligent and fastidious," in contrast to black people who were traditionally portrayed as dim brutes who want to rape white women).

Why are jewish people underrepresented?

I would say it's probably for many of the same reasons as Asians, especially given that (to my knowledge) the US hasn't really had a period of widespread anti-Semitism on par with other minority groups like blacks, Asians, and Eastern Europeans (and hell, even Catholics for a bit). Not to say anti-Semitism hasn't existed or that it was "more tolerable" in any way, just not to the same extant as the others.

A portion of the disparity is certainly going to owe to recidivism and another portion is certainly going to owe to representation. If you have a criminal record you're not getting the same deal as a guy who doesn't, if your lawyer is a shark the state will give you a much better deal because they're not as certain they can even win at trial.

Of course. These are factors I've never denied.

This does not mean these disparities are okay. It means the way we fix them is distressingly more complicated than just saying "racism is bad."

I'm glad we agree, then.

I understand that but again the protests are.

The protests are a response to police shootings (except, again, not really because George Floyd wasn't shot), that's not the same as saying that they're only about police shootings. The protesters aren't an organized group with a written manifesto (despite many of them being organized by BLM, there are also plenty that are just concerned citizens getting together some people they know), they're just a bunch of individuals who have their own reasons for participating and many of them are almost certainly aware of the various problems I've stated. Trying to claim that they're just about police shootings is nothing short of gross oversimplification for the sake of strawmanning.

[Des-Bal]

Which I haven't done. Look, I'm trying to avoid being a dick because you actually seem like you're trying to argue in good faith, but at this point you're just actively strawmanning my argument. I feel like I've been pretty clear in my responses that I recognize the issue is far more complex than simply "police are racist," but the fact remains that racism in policing is a manifestation of the racism of the justice system (just like police brutality against drug addicts and the homeless are manifestations of systemic prejudice against them as well). You're absolutely correct that racist policing is not the core problem, but recognizing its existence is a good first step.


Hard but not impossible. A part of statistics is that you have to make (some) assumptions and interpretations, it's just how statistics work. Without it, they're literally just numbers with no context. False incarcerations by itself is easily measurable (just look at the total number of people exonerated after being convicted and imprisoned). After that comes the actual math parts. You break it down by race, then compare the proportion of white people falsely imprisoned vs. black people (you could also compare both to other minority groups as well). If the latter is higher than the former, then you're going to have to figure out a reason why. Of course, you're right that just writing it off entirely as racism is wrong, but so is entirely discounting it. Of course, there's an economic element to everything that often gets overlooked as well, but at the same time it's also important to factor in the relationship between race and economics in America.

Ultimately, we both agree that the issue is more complex than just racism, but I think we disagree on ways race and racism interact with the other elements of that complexity. Feel free to correct me if you disagree, though.


According to whom? This is a completely unfalsifiable blanket statement.


Again, literally never said it was just about race. In fact, like I said, I've been pretty clear that I don't think that

It's impossible to know the exact extent, and you know that. This argument is banking on the fact that racism isn't a material thing that can be measured with accuracy. What we can do is ask questions. Such as, "Why is crime so prevalent in black communities?" My answer would be: "Poor education and lack of economic opportunities and financial security." Then you could ask, "Why do black communities lack good education and economic resources?" My answer would be: "Because America has been run by WASPs for its entire existence and they didn't prioritize black needs." Why didn't they prioritize their needs? Because they didn't care about them, because they didn't see them as equals.

For the record, I do think black communities themselves need to play a role in this as well. Especially in the most poor communities. There are things they can do themselves, but they're never going to have the financial resources to do it without some help from the state, which will only happen once there enough elected officials that actually care about black people's needs. There is, of course, a lot more that can be (and has been) said about this, but I'm not interested in writing a thesis at the moment.

Correct, because noting a disparity doesn't prove anything (other than "there is a disparity"). Like I said above, statistics require interpretation in order to be meaningful.

I mean, my answer would be that it's because Americans of Asian descent have typically had better financial security and education (and thus, more economic opportunities). Plus, stereotypes historically associated with Asians are generally more "positive" than those associated with black Americans (namely that Asians are "intelligent and fastidious," in contrast to black people who were traditionally portrayed as dim brutes who want to rape white women).

I would say it's probably for many of the same reasons as Asians, especially given that (to my knowledge) the US hasn't really had a period of widespread anti-Semitism on par with other minority groups like blacks, Asians, and Eastern Europeans (and hell, even Catholics for a bit). Not to say anti-Semitism hasn't existed or that it was "more tolerable" in any way, just not to the same extant as the others.

Of course. These are factors I've never denied.


I'm glad we agree, then.

The protests are a response to police shootings (except, again, not really because George Floyd wasn't shot), that's not the same as saying that they're only about police shootings. The protesters aren't an organized group with a written manifesto (despite many of them being organized by BLM, there are also plenty that are just concerned citizens getting together some people they know), they're just a bunch of individuals who have their own reasons for participating and many of them are almost certainly aware of the various problems I've stated. Trying to claim that they're just about police shootings is nothing short of gross oversimplification for the sake of strawmanning.

I made two long responses that were lost to the other several glasses ago. I'll summarize thusly.

At a certain point issues that are not racism weigh heavily enough that a focus on racism will render solutions inefficient.

What motive is spoken with enough voices to drown out "defund the police?" More than one person necessitates more than one viewpoint but there is a definitive driving force behind these protests.

[Borderlands of Rojava]

It was never about George Floyd nor Confederate statues.

George Floyd the lovable gentle Drug addled giant.

waitaminute.

Rodrigo dutuerte would approve. He too thinks doing drugs should be justification for the murder of a man.