US Anti-Police Protests and Riots Thread II

[Genivaria]

When you guys say decriminalize drugs are you talking about making meth, crack, LSD and other hardcore drugs legal or are you talking about other drugs?

Just need that to be clarified.

Decriminalize possession, addiction is a health issue not a criminal issue.

[Aeritai]

When you guys say decriminalize drugs are you talking about making meth, crack, LSD and other hardcore drugs legal or are you talking about other drugs?

Just need that to be clarified.

Decriminalize possession, addiction is a health issue not a criminal issue.

Ah alright thanks for the clarification!

[Gormwood]

If we decriminalize drugs and sex work, replace "fix-it tickets" with roadside assistance, help fund social work, rehabilitation, and other community-building efforts, mostly empty the prisons and rebuild them Swedish-style, fund universal healthcare, and better fund shelters cops will be pretty much useless and America will be a better place.

This pretty much^. If a criminal isn't an active threat to public safety than there's no justification for imprisonment which is both expensive and unproductive.
Fines and community service should be the only punishments for the vast majority of crimes.

Still going to need some police for occasional extreme situations like serial killers, hostage situations and terror attacks. Sociopaths generally don't care to abide by social conventions.

[Genivaria]

This pretty much^. If a criminal isn't an active threat to public safety than there's no justification for imprisonment which is both expensive and unproductive.
Fines and community service should be the only punishments for the vast majority of crimes.

Still going to need some police for occasional extreme situations like serial killers, hostage situations and terror attacks. Sociopaths generally don't care to abide by social conventions.

I said defund the police, not abolish them.
I'm aware that some people support abolishing but I am not one of them.

Sociopaths generally don't care to abide by social conventions

Sociopaths aren't normally violent criminals, they often thrive in corporate and political positions that treat human beings as cogs in a machine.

[Alcala-Cordel]

If we decriminalize drugs and sex work, replace "fix-it tickets" with roadside assistance, help fund social work, rehabilitation, and other community-building efforts, mostly empty the prisons and rebuild them Swedish-style, fund universal healthcare, and better fund shelters cops will be pretty much useless and America will be a better place.

YES, YES, YES.

I though I think you missed decriminalizing immigration along with drugs and sex work too.

I forgot to write that but we absolutely should. It's nice talking to like-minded people

Why is policy making so bad in America? I hear so many good ideas and they are never implemented. What’s stopping the US from changing its social programs to rehabilitation and serving the public instead of creating massive prison systems that perpetuate crime and corruption?

A good analogy can be found in that Pixar movie The Incredibles. The villain created an enemy in order to gain power and respect from the masses, who would consider him to be an idol.

[Mirjt]

When you guys say decriminalize drugs are you talking about making meth, crack, LSD and other hardcore drugs legal or are you talking about other drugs?

Just need that to be clarified.

Like what someone else said most people mean that you won't get arrested for possession or use of drugs, and we treat drug addiction as the public health issue and not a criminal issue or public safety issue.

Often time (but not always) people who support drug decriminalization support a system where drug users may go to safe injection sites, where instead of making the drug themselves or buying the drug from an illegal dealer, both of which are risky as the drug's dosage and purity can cause adverse effects, you instead can get the drugs from doctors who and provide injections at safe-ish doses and practices, doctors who can immediately treat someone having an overdose and who can provide resources for addiction treatment. If someone is going to use drugs anyway, at least this way there will be a lot less death and harm and it gives us an opportunity to effectively try to treat addiction.

Some will also support the full legalization, regulation, and taxation of less harmful drugs, like cannabis. There are also some that advocate for the legalization of all or almost all drugs, but that is not representative of the drug decriminalization movement as a whole.

Remember decriminalization means that people are not going arrested, but that does not mean it is legal and lawful, legalization means it is legal and lawful.

Decriminalizing drugs has been shown to save lives. Portugal is the typical example because they fully decriminalized all drugs and as a result drug addiction, drug violence, drug overdoses, etc... all went down, along with other issues such as HIV being transmitted through needles.

P.S. my personal position is that we fully decriminalize drugs, sex work, and immigration, and that we legalize most safe drugs (and use safe injection sites), and that we legalize most sex work (including prostitution), and that we switch to open borders (which will fully legalize immigration).

[Alcala-Cordel]

Like what someone else said most people mean that you won't get arrested for possession or use of drugs, and we treat drug addiction as the public health issue and not a criminal issue or public safety issue.

Often time (but not always) people who support drug decriminalization support a system where drug users may go to safe injection sites, where instead of making the drug themselves or buying the drug from an illegal dealer, both of which are risky as the drug's dosage and purity can cause adverse effects, you instead can get the drugs from doctors who and provide injections at safe-ish doses and practices, doctors who can immediately treat someone having an overdose and who can provide resources for addiction treatment. If someone is going to use drugs anyway, at least this way there will be a lot less death and harm and it gives us an opportunity to effectively try to treat addiction.

Some will also support the full legalization, regulation, and taxation of less harmful drugs, like cannabis. There are also some that advocate for the legalization of all or almost all drugs, but that is not representative of the drug decriminalization movement as a whole.

Remember decriminalization means that people are not going arrested, but that does not mean it is legal and lawful, legalization means it is legal and lawful.

Decriminalizing drugs has been shown to save lives. Portugal is the typical example because they fully decriminalized all drugs and as a result drug addiction, drug violence, drug overdoses, etc... all went down, along with other issues such as HIV being transmitted through needles.

P.S. my personal position is that we fully decriminalize drugs, sex work, and immigration, and that we legalize most safe drugs (and use safe injection sites), and that we legalize most sex work (including prostitution), and that we switch to open borders (which will fully legalize immigration).

Going to further add that safe injection sites have been tried and proven to be extremely effective at fighting addiction while simultaneously weakening the black market.

see here

[Kowani]

The general investment in the community will make bank robberies unnecessary.

While I generally support defunding the police I don't think bank robbers are from poor backgrounds, robbing a bank requires professional skill.

...How exactly do you think people get the experience to rob banks? GTA?

When you guys say decriminalize drugs are you talking about making meth, crack, LSD and other hardcore drugs legal or are you talking about other drugs?

Just need that to be clarified.

All of them. Drug possession should not get you years in prison and make you unemployable.

[The Rich Port]

Jeez guys come on read up on criminology. Your bank robbing technique is outta whack.

Defunding the police is not going to make bank robberies easier. The North Hollywood Shootout, while exceptional and used to justify the escalation of force, is just that: EXCEPTIONAL. It was a one-time thing, and sure, while it was a tragedy that there were several fatalities in that shoot-out, it was a ONE TIME THING. The police should have these arms ready but they most certainly do not need an entire arsenal of military weaponry on a day-to-day basis.

No bank robbery like it has happened in two decades to justify such an escalation of force. The only other bank robbery I can recall is the Collar Robbery, and that did not necessitate excessive firepower at all.

And most importantly... Definitely not against black people. All this shit happening, nobody ever talks about the rise of the Sovereign Citizen movement and other conservative and Neo-Nazi militias that are threatening to rise up if Donald Trump is not re-elected.

[-Astoria-]

Quite a few posters are calling for American DeBaathification with police in place of Baath Party members. And we saw what happened after DeBaathification. Getting rid of police with no replacement is a recipe for a fucktastrophe.

If we decriminalize drugs and sex work, replace "fix-it tickets" with roadside assistance, help fund social work, rehabilitation, and other community-building efforts, mostly empty the prisons and rebuild them Swedish-style, fund universal healthcare, and better fund shelters cops will be pretty much useless and America will be a better place.

O, so close to agreeing, minus those ones.

[Vassenor]

Jeez guys come on read up on criminology. Your bank robbing technique is outta whack.

Defunding the police is not going to make bank robberies easier. The North Hollywood Shootout, while exceptional and used to justify the escalation of force, is just that: EXCEPTIONAL. It was a one-time thing, and sure, while it was a tragedy that there were several fatalities in that shoot-out, it was a ONE TIME THING. The police should have these arms ready but they most certainly do not need an entire arsenal of military weaponry on a day-to-day basis.

No bank robbery like it has happened in two decades to justify such an escalation of force. The only other bank robbery I can recall is the Collar Robbery, and that did not necessitate excessive firepower at all.

And most importantly... Definitely not against black people. All this shit happening, nobody ever talks about the rise of the Sovereign Citizen movement and other conservative and Neo-Nazi militias that are threatening to rise up if Donald Trump is not re-elected.

Some people are going to take the lack of an apparent capable guardian as a sign that crime is more OK, but I get the impression that's going to balance out with the reduction in strain-inducing push factors.

[Vassenor]

When in doubt, break out the leaf blowers.

[The Greater Ohio Valley]

When in doubt, break out the leaf blowers.

Best use of gardening tools I've ever seen.

[The Rich Port]

When in doubt, break out the leaf blowers.

Lmao blow it right back.

So... I'm confused. Why the hell are the police using tear gas on these protesters. They're peaceful.

[Vassenor]

So much anti-police violence. Totally requiring federal intervention.

[Mirjt]

So much anti-police violence. Totally requiring federal intervention.

I just want to confirm you are being sarcastic, because I saw no violence whatsoever in that 31 second video.

[Vassenor]

So much anti-police violence. Totally requiring federal intervention.

I just want to confirm you are being sarcastic, because I saw no violence whatsoever in that 31 second video.

Very much so. We keep being told how violent these protests are and how the police are justified in their responses but the video evidence doesn't bear that conclusion out.

[Gravlen]

If we decriminalize drugs and sex work, replace "fix-it tickets" with roadside assistance, help fund social work, rehabilitation, and other community-building efforts, mostly empty the prisons and rebuild them Swedish-style, fund universal healthcare, and better fund shelters cops will be pretty much useless and America will be a better place.

O, so close to agreeing, minus those ones.

Not the thread for an in-debth discussion about it, but why not decriminalize sex work?

[The Yeetusa]

I just want to confirm you are being sarcastic, because I saw no violence whatsoever in that 31 second video.

Very much so. We keep being told how violent these protests are and how the police are justified in their responses but the video evidence doesn't bear that conclusion out.

And that's what people don't listen to. They want people to think it's all being violent and everything, when in reality, most people are protesting without police intervention.

[Greed and Death]

So much anti-police violence. Totally requiring federal intervention.

They are injuring the road bring out the tanks.

[Greed and Death]

Might reduce them, but won't eliminate them. There will always be crime, even if it is greatly reduced. Thus there will always be a need for police.

However, that does not mean police should get away with BS that they have been. I don't know if mass firing, mass retraining, selective firings, maybe not filling in spots that open up or something would work.

I get that people want change, and there should be, but I don't think you can just massively cut police without having the ground work for these...social programs?and INSTANTLY be able to shoulder their load and not leave things in a worse state.

I think what is needed is a mix of retraining, reducing the duties and increasing social programs, and ensuring that police wear body cams at all times with consequences for turning them off and the like.

I am afraid we can't do that. What I can do is give them more military equipment and a grudge against the poor.

[Ifreann]

Yes, I can, and maybe I will if I find myself in conversation with someone who might engage with those views in good faith.

So you're afraid I'll find a flaw in it so you won't elaborate. Carry on then.

I can't imagine why I'd be afraid of you saying the same things you always say. I'm just not interested in slogging through a serious conversation with you.

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Most things should be deregulated or left to social workers and other professions.

The social workers wills stop a bank robbery for sure.

Bank robbery is an economic crime. People rob banks for the money, it's not a crime of passion like we would expect to happen as long as people have feelings. So there are a lot of ways to prevent bank robberies. What is it that people want money for so badly that they're risking a long prison sentence and possibly death to rob a bank? Whatever that is...why don't we just give it to them? That's gotta be safer than them robbing a bank and us sending armed bastards after them. Probably cheaper too.

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I think what is needed is a mix of retraining, reducing the duties and increasing social programs, and ensuring that police wear body cams at all times with consequences for turning them off and the like.

That sounds sensible, but again, these changes require time. This is something you phase in gradual. Body cam rules yesterday, training once they figure out what training to give (I don't know, I'm not in that business), and gradual let other agencies handle certain calls that police used to handle once those agencies are up and running. And generally you can't get an agency up and running overnight. It seems to me that the gradual reduction in duties would be begin in what, 6 months to a year, and then gradually over the course of the next couple years gain steam. Something like that anyway.

The problem is, while you make these little gradual changes, the cops carry on killing people. You introduce bodycams, they start "losing" the footage, or "accidentally" turning the cameras off at critical moments. There was a post just up-thread a bit about NYPD top brass talking about how they don't need to obey the ban on chokeholds, because no DA would prosecute one of them. You can't make gradual reforms when the cops don't actually have to obey the law.

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NS2 explained pretty well why bank robberies aren't super common, so I have to ask...what is it exactly that you think police do?

Well, cities can't run budget deficits the way the feds can, so something's gonna have to go, and I think the guys who are actively making things worse should be the first on the chopping block.

Police prevent and solve crime, and help citizens in need.They protect lives and property.
In theory, anyway.

Again, as mentioned, you can't just get rid of police entirely (ever), and not have the groundwork for their successor agencies in place.

It's settled law in the US that the police have no duty to help citizens in need, no duty to protect people, and no duty to enforce the law. If you're the victim of a crime, and you call the cops, they don't have to respond. They don't have to investigate. They don't even have to try.

[Gormwood]

So you're afraid I'll find a flaw in it so you won't elaborate. Carry on then.

I can't imagine why I'd be afraid of you saying the same things you always say. I'm just not interested in slogging through a serious conversation with you.

Yeah, no faith in your own arguments so just go "You'll just say the same thing" and pretend it's a victory. Solid debate technique.

[Ifreann]

I can't imagine why I'd be afraid of you saying the same things you always say. I'm just not interested in slogging through a serious conversation with you.

Yeah, no faith in your own arguments so just go "You'll just say the same thing" and pretend it's a victory. Solid debate technique.

I'm not debating you. I'm explaining to you why I won't have a serious conversation with you, and you've even making that painful, acting like this is a competition and smugly gloating because you think you're winning.

[Gormwood]

Yeah, no faith in your own arguments so just go "You'll just say the same thing" and pretend it's a victory. Solid debate technique.

I'm not debating you. I'm explaining to you why I won't have a serious conversation with you, and you've even making that painful, acting like this is a competition and smugly gloating because you think you're winning.

Nah, you don't want debate rattling your self-assured RRRRHH, PIGS BAD view and pretending you're not interested in debate as a moral security blanket. What, no police in Ireland now?