US Anti-Police Protests and Riots Thread II

[Spirit of Hope]

So why do the Republicans keep blocking attempts at police reform?

Because the "police reform" you people have in mind will lead to more crime.

More funding for social and mental health services instead of armoured vehicles for the police will lead to more crime? Civilian oversight of police departments will lead to more crime? Keeping track of police officers use of force, even after they leave a department, will lead to more crime?

Do you have any evidence to back that assertion up?

[Vassenor]

The moment when you realise that more damage has been done to lives and property by Gender Reveal parties than by these protests.

30 people have been killed by the recent riots.

Killed by or killed during?

[Vassenor]

Because the "police reform" you people have in mind will lead to more crime.

More funding for social and mental health services instead of armoured vehicles for the police will lead to more crime? Civilian oversight of police departments will lead to more crime? Keeping track of police officers use of force, even after they leave a department, will lead to more crime?

Do you have any evidence to back that assertion up?

The police said so, I presume.

[Galloism]

30 people have been killed by the recent riots.

Killed by or killed during?

Some of both.

[Cordel One]

So why do the Republicans keep blocking attempts at police reform?

Because the "police reform" you people have in mind will lead to more crime.

The overwhelming majority of crime is rooted in inequality. Less inequality and less injustice will lead to less crime.

[Fahran]

The overwhelming majority of crime is rooted in inequality. Less inequality and less injustice will lead to less crime.

Yes, but that's not a short-term solution and can be done even while retaining policing given we have some evidence that suggests a deterrent effect. Which reminds me. I still owe Ko a response. In any case, the best approach to addressing criminality, as with many other things, is a multifaceted one - that combines short-term and long-term solutions. Let's make wholesome family dynamics, education, churches, healthcare, and good jobs accessible.

Some of both.

And both sets of deaths have probably been well above the number of people we could expect to die from accidental pipe bombs during a gender reveal.

[Senkaku]

Because the "police reform" you people have in mind will lead to more crime.

More funding for social and mental health services instead of armoured vehicles for the police will lead to more crime? Civilian oversight of police departments will lead to more crime? Keeping track of police officers use of force, even after they leave a department, will lead to more crime?

Do you have any evidence to back that assertion up?

"More crime" is a euphemism for "more people of color and poor or otherwise marginalized people having good life outcomes", which some members of the white ruling class appear to believe is a crime in and of itself

[Fahran]

Keeping track of police officers use of force, even after they leave a department, will lead to more crime?

I'm not certain this one is actually legal. I don't think having your employer keep tabs on you years after you left a job is really desirable for anyone. It's a massive invasion of privacy frankly.

And, because BLM is a nebulous and decentralized movement, demands have ranged from greater accountability to the wholesale abolition of policing. Defunding the police, on the more extreme ends, could potentially result in higher crime rates since the alleged deterrent effect of patrols could be minimized or nullified altogether. And abolition fully cedes the state's monopoly on coercion within a geographic region to whichever private citizens have the means to monopolize violence, excluding in particular circumstances when the state decides to send in the military. Neither option is exactly well-considered. I think that greater police accountability and higher standards might actually require increasing wages and investing more in training.

[The Greater Ohio Valley]

The overwhelming majority of crime is rooted in inequality. Less inequality and less injustice will lead to less crime.

Yes, but that's not a short-term solution and can be done even while retaining policing given we have some evidence that suggests a deterrent effect. Which reminds me. I still owe Ko a response. In any case, the best approach to addressing criminality, as with many other things, is a multifaceted one - that combines short-term and long-term solutions. Let's make wholesome family dynamics, education, churches, healthcare, and good jobs accessible.

Some of both.

And both sets of deaths have probably been well above the number of people we could expect to die from accidental pipe bombs during a gender reveal.

When there are tens of thousands of churches and many thousands of more places of worship spread across the country, I’d say those are pretty accessible.

[Senkaku]

Some of both.

And both sets of deaths have probably been well above the number of people we could expect to die from accidental pipe bombs during a gender reveal.

the latest fire is over 10,000 acres and has forced 20,000 people to evacuate, at a point when the state's resources to contain it are stretched thin, and we've literally had these stupid gender fires every year for several years now

maybe the massive nationwide resistance against state violence is still leading in number of total deaths, but the race isn't over and gender reveal actually seems to be gaining from behind (and I think is comfortably ahead on financial damages, since they've been happening for years and already caused many millions of dollars of damage)

[Senkaku]

Keeping track of police officers use of force, even after they leave a department, will lead to more crime?

I'm not certain this one is actually legal. I don't think having your employer keep tabs on you years after you left a job is really desirable for anyone. It's a massive invasion of privacy frankly.

I think they're referring to the idea of departments communicating with one another about officers who move between them, since problem officers going to a new department like nothing happened has been an issue in the past?

And, because BLM is a nebulous and decentralized movement, demands have ranged from greater accountability to the wholesale abolition of policing. Defunding the police, on the more extreme ends, could potentially result in higher crime rates since the alleged deterrent effect of patrols could be minimized or nullified altogether. And abolition fully cedes the state's monopoly on coercion within a geographic region to whichever private citizens have the means to monopolize violence, excluding in particular circumstances when the state decides to send in the military. Neither option is exactly well-considered.

so the two most extreme options, neither of which is seen as viable by mainstream policymakers, might not be "well-considered," and therefore this is grounds to dismiss the movement as a bunch of uppity rioters who should be mowed down

(I'm not saying you're saying the latter part out loud, I'm saying you're enabling people who are making that argument out loud by siding with them and the demented ideology of conservative law and order over the people demanding that their police forces not murder innocent citizens)

[Senkaku]

increasing wages

Yes, let's reward them for doing such a terrible job, as if they weren't very highly paid and notorious for time theft and absurd OT requests anyways!

and investing more in training.

Maybe, but the record doesn't seem to show great success with just giving people who can't be trusted with a gun and a badge some extra sensitivity training. It's blown off and they go right back to what they were doing, protected by their colleagues' continuing silence. I think some slightly more punitive reforms may be required. Perhaps we'll have to actually impose consequences on these rogue arms of the state who believe they can operate with impunity! I know it's a crazy concept.

[Fahran]

When there are tens of thousands of churches and many thousands of more places of worship spread across the country, I’d say those are pretty accessible.

And yet we're drawing the youth away from an institutional bulwark that often served to provide a strong and compelling sense of community for them. A lot of that has to doing with an increasing trend towards secularism, not simply in politics, but in broader society. That's not problematic in and of itself from a social perspective, mind you, but we don't really have a neat replacement which creates a vacuum that can be quite easily filled by criminal gangs, terrorist cells, and other such groups. You cannot deconstruct or weaken institutions and expect well-adjusted citizens to emerge from the ashes.

[Telconi]

In what world is it "the right idea" to call the cops on your 13 year old child because they're having an incident?

In a world where 'calling the cops on someone' should not entail the possibility of extrajudicial execution. 'Calling the cops on someone' should not mean that you accept the possibility of their death. It should not even factor in.

The only reason it would not be okay to call the police for something like this is if you live in a country where the police are both expected to deal with every situation requiring authority, but these same people are also trained to perform and prioritise extreme violence. In any normal situation, calling the cops because your child is suffering from heavy fits should not result in them being fucking shot, and the fact that you expect that says more about your police system than it says about this woman.

Don't fucking blame this woman for the death of her own child. Blame the person who put a bullet through him.

Yes, the police system is largely filled with trigger happy jackboots. It's possible to blame both the police force for being trigger happy jackboots, and also blame this mother for purposely bringing trigger happy jackboots into her home to deal with her autistic son.

Secondly, there's not a single nation on God's green earth in which cops are the correct form of address to a child having an anxiety episode.

[Telconi]

In what world is it "the right idea" to call the cops on your 13 year old child because they're having an incident?

The story is sketchy (just that article) but she says she asked for the Crisis Intervention Team. She got regular cops.

Did she mix up the numbers and call the police instead?

[Neutraligon]

The story is sketchy (just that article) but she says she asked for the Crisis Intervention Team. She got regular cops.

Did she mix up the numbers and call the police instead?

She requested CIT, as in officers specifically trained to deal with those who are having mental health issues. She specifically told them he was unarmed. Instead she got regular officers who shot a kid who was running away.

[Fahran]

maybe the massive nationwide resistance against state violence is still leading in number of total deaths, but the race isn't over and gender reveal actually seems to be gaining from behind (and I think is comfortably ahead on financial damages, since they've been happening for years and already caused many millions of dollars of damage)

So Vass was wrong with her low-effort gotcha post then? Um, I don't think the financial damages race is very close either. We have potentially hundreds of millions of dollars in damages from riots in 2020 thus far. Thus far the fire has caused about $8 million dollars in damages.

[Telconi]

Did she mix up the numbers and call the police instead?

She requested CIT, as in officers specifically trained to deal with those who are having mental health issues. She specifically told them he was unarmed. Instead she got regular officers who shot a kid who was running away.

That seems like a disaster waiting to happen from the get go, and then it's even worse when it fails.

[Neutraligon]

She requested CIT, as in officers specifically trained to deal with those who are having mental health issues. She specifically told them he was unarmed. Instead she got regular officers who shot a kid who was running away.

That seems like a disaster waiting to happen from the get go, and then it's even worse when it fails.

Which is why BLM and those saying defund the police (yeah it is a really shitty slogan) are trying to get non-police individuals who can respond to those having mental health crisis. Pretty sure the police do not want to be responding to those calls, since they are unequipped to do so.

[Telconi]

That seems like a disaster waiting to happen from the get go, and then it's even worse when it fails.

Which is why BLM and those saying defund the police (yeah it is a really shitty slogan) are trying to get non-police individuals who can respond to those having mental health crisis. Pretty sure the police do not want to be responding to those calls, since they are unequipped to do so.

Thank you for kindly explaining the central theme of the thread.

[Neutraligon]

Which is why BLM and those saying defund the police (yeah it is a really shitty slogan) are trying to get non-police individuals who can respond to those having mental health crisis. Pretty sure the police do not want to be responding to those calls, since they are unequipped to do so.

Thank you for kindly explaining the central theme of the thread.

You're welcome.

[Fahran]

I think they're referring to the idea of departments communicating with one another about officers who move between them, since problem officers going to a new department like nothing happened has been an issue in the past?

I wouldn't really have any objection to that. I think if you get fired for misconduct of some kind that you should have to list previous employment on a resume and that a new department should have to contact your old department.

so the two most extreme options, neither of which is seen as viable by mainstream policymakers, might not be "well-considered," and therefore this is grounds to dismiss the movement as a bunch of uppity rioters who should be mowed down

Some municipal governments have considered and even pursued cutting police budgets by as much as a third, which could present a problem in burgeoning urban and suburban areas. So it's not exactly an extreme position to hold - just potentially ill-conceived. But I'm not arguing that we should mow people down in any case. We should arrest or disperse people who commit serious crimes, sure, but people should be able to peacefully protest for whatever they want - even if it's dumb. My point here was that we need to consider what communities want and how best government can provide that. This might mean disregarding protestors, or at least some subsection of protestors, on occasion.

(I'm not saying you're saying the latter part out loud, I'm saying you're enabling people who are making that argument out loud by siding with them and the demented ideology of conservative law and order over the people demanding that their police forces not murder innocent citizens)

I don't support riots or reforms that are likely to cause an uptick in crime rates. I also don't support the police killing, maiming, or abusing people unnecessarily. I do support police accountability and high standards for training and discipline in the police force. I do support access to social institutions, steady employment, education, healthcare, better food, and economic assistance for disadvantaged communities. Law and order are necessary prerequisites for justice when the alternative is a manifest injustice and bleeding money from government coffers. Mind you, my definition of law and order doesn't involve brutalizing peaceful protestors or telling them to sit down and shut up. I don't want people to die and I don't want property to be damaged - regardless of who does it. Because that's never socially beneficial on its own.

[Telconi]

Thank you for kindly explaining the central theme of the thread.

You're welcome.

Sarcasm can be hard to detect in text, but I think that one was pretty obvious.

[Fahran]

Yes, let's reward them for doing such a terrible job, as if they weren't very highly paid and notorious for time theft and absurd OT requests anyways!

The average police pay in my state is around $42,000, which is well below the average employee pay of around $51,000. My point in calling for higher wages and standards is this. What sorts of people do you want to attract to do a job that, by your own admission, is currently done poorly? If you pay subpar wages, you can expect to attract fewer educated people with plenty of other, higher-paying options as employees and so you shrink your potential recruitment pool by cutting out a lot of the more educated, professional, and competent potential recruits. If you want law enforcement officers to train like lawyers or skilled mental health professionals, you need to pay them like those folks.

Maybe, but the record doesn't seem to show great success with just giving people who can't be trusted with a gun and a badge some extra sensitivity training. It's blown off and they go right back to what they were doing, protected by their colleagues' continuing silence. I think some slightly more punitive reforms may be required. Perhaps we'll have to actually impose consequences on these rogue arms of the state who believe they can operate with impunity! I know it's a crazy concept.

I'm not arguing for mere sensitivity training.

[The Greater Ohio Valley]

When there are tens of thousands of churches and many thousands of more places of worship spread across the country, I’d say those are pretty accessible.

And yet we're drawing the youth away from an institutional bulwark that often served to provide a strong and compelling sense of community for them. A lot of that has to doing with an increasing trend towards secularism, not simply in politics, but in broader society. That's not problematic in and of itself from a social perspective, mind you, but we don't really have a neat replacement which creates a vacuum that can be quite easily filled by criminal gangs, terrorist cells, and other such groups. You cannot deconstruct or weaken institutions and expect well-adjusted citizens to emerge from the ashes.

We can find solutions to that problem that don’t have to rely solely or primarily on religious institutions since we’re a generally secular society. We can better fund and create better after school programs for kids and teenagers, community projects and social functions to get people better involved with their communities like potlucks, cookouts, light service work (like litter collecting and aesthetics impairments like painting murals, planting flowers and trees, etc.), support groups for the lonely, mentally ill, addicted, etc, and a whole host of other things that don’t require the institutions whose primary thing is sitting in a big room with a bunch of other people, listening to someone talk and God and the Bible and sing for an hour a week.