Socialism v.s. Capitalism - Which one is better and why?

[Cisairse]

People have a hard time imagining a socialist society because they've grown up under capitalism their whole life and can't imagine a different world.

Remember that prices are artificial. We say a car is $4,000 because that is a value we give it, but if people changed their thought process on the issue, we could really use the resources for free. And I know this couldn't happen overnight. But to say it is totally impossible ever is just silly. I believe socialism is better than capitalism because capitalism easily descends into "profits before people." I clearly do not support the kind of "socialism" we saw in the USSR, but instead liberterian socialism. The cold hard capitalism of today is destroying this planet and if we don't change our ways soon, this society will collapse.

It seems you're proposing a command economy with the complete absence of markets.

Libertarian socialism isn't a command economy.
Lack of markets doesn't require a command economy.

[Sundiata]

It seems you're proposing a command economy with the complete absence of markets.

Libertarian socialism isn't a command economy.
Lack of markets doesn't require a command economy.

There are only market economies, mixed-market economies, or command economies.

Libertarian socialism is a political ideology.

[Cisairse]

Libertarian socialism isn't a command economy.
Lack of markets doesn't require a command economy.

There are only market economies, mixed-market economies, or command economies.

Libertarian socialism is a political ideology.

That is not true, and is actually quite ignorant about political theory.

[Rojava Free State]

People have a hard time imagining a socialist society because they've grown up under capitalism their whole life and can't imagine a different world.

Remember that prices are artificial. We say a car is $4,000 because that is a value we give it, but if people changed their thought process on the issue, we could really use the resources for free. And I know this couldn't happen overnight. But to say it is totally impossible ever is just silly. I believe socialism is better than capitalism because capitalism easily descends into "profits before people." I clearly do not support the kind of "socialism" we saw in the USSR, but instead liberterian socialism. The cold hard capitalism of today is destroying this planet and if we don't change our ways soon, this society will collapse.

It seems you're proposing a command economy with the complete absence of markets.

I support an end to corporations, and a return to small business at most. I wouldnt mind living in a society where we share the resources. But I don't want a dictatorship. In my fantasy, me and 99 other people would abandon society for the woods and build a little commune out there that practices this ideal of a free and fair society, without money.

I wouldnt want to force this on other people, so this would be voluntary socialism. And I'm not totally against a small free market, but capitalism isn't just a free market. There's been a free market since time began but capitalism started in Europe following the Renaissance when corporate organization became a thing with businesses.

[Estanglia]

Depends on the metric.

If you're talking sheer economic power, probably capitalism. However, my problem with capitalism is its tendency to prioritise profits over people, meaning you tend to get some extremely wealthy people at the expense of a lot of extremely poor people. Oh, and severe environmental damage.

I'd personally prefer either a restrained form of capitalism like social democracy, or a form of libertarian/democratic socialism. A system designed so that everyone prospers, rather than the current system where a few prosper immensely and a significantly larger group of people who aren't prospering at all, or are barely prospering.

[Gurkha Nepal]

People have a hard time imagining a socialist society because they've grown up under capitalism their whole life and can't imagine a different world.

Remember that prices are artificial. We say a car is $4,000 because that is a value we give it, but if people changed their thought process on the issue, we could really use the resources for free. And I know this couldn't happen overnight. But to say it is totally impossible ever is just silly. I believe socialism is better than capitalism because capitalism easily descends into "profits before people." I clearly do not support the kind of "socialism" we saw in the USSR, but instead liberterian socialism. The cold hard capitalism of today is destroying this planet and if we don't change our ways soon, this society will collapse.

Socialists are liars. I live in Nepal, I supported the socialists and communists and was one of the student protestors in the revolution against the monarchy. Big mistake, they’re worse than the king.

[Rojava Free State]

People have a hard time imagining a socialist society because they've grown up under capitalism their whole life and can't imagine a different world.

Remember that prices are artificial. We say a car is $4,000 because that is a value we give it, but if people changed their thought process on the issue, we could really use the resources for free. And I know this couldn't happen overnight. But to say it is totally impossible ever is just silly. I believe socialism is better than capitalism because capitalism easily descends into "profits before people." I clearly do not support the kind of "socialism" we saw in the USSR, but instead liberterian socialism. The cold hard capitalism of today is destroying this planet and if we don't change our ways soon, this society will collapse.

Socialists are liars. I live in Nepal, I supported the socialists and communists and was one of the student protestors in the revolution against the monarchy. Big mistake, they’re worse than the king.

You got the worst kind of soclialism though, which is maoism. Saying all socialists are maoists is like saying all white people are members of Identity Evropa.

[Cisairse]

People have a hard time imagining a socialist society because they've grown up under capitalism their whole life and can't imagine a different world.

Remember that prices are artificial. We say a car is $4,000 because that is a value we give it, but if people changed their thought process on the issue, we could really use the resources for free. And I know this couldn't happen overnight. But to say it is totally impossible ever is just silly. I believe socialism is better than capitalism because capitalism easily descends into "profits before people." I clearly do not support the kind of "socialism" we saw in the USSR, but instead liberterian socialism. The cold hard capitalism of today is destroying this planet and if we don't change our ways soon, this society will collapse.

Socialists are liars. I live in Nepal, I supported the socialists and communists and was one of the student protestors in the revolution against the monarchy. Big mistake, they’re worse than the king.

Authoritarians are despicable, don't lump us libertarian socialists in with them

[Sundiata]

There are only market economies, mixed-market economies, or command economies.

Libertarian socialism is a political ideology.

That is not true, and is actually quite ignorant about political theory.

Economically that's true, however, what mistake am I making with respect to political theory?

[The New California Republic]

That is not true, and is actually quite ignorant about political theory.

Economically that's true, however, what mistake am I making with respect to political theory?

You are wrong about libertarian socialism not having its own economic ethos, as it very much does; mainly along the lines of workers' self-management of their workplaces in the form of associations and cooperatives and the like.

[Neutraligon]

People have a hard time imagining a socialist society because they've grown up under capitalism their whole life and can't imagine a different world.

Remember that prices are artificial. We say a car is $4,000 because that is a value we give it, but if people changed their thought process on the issue, we could really use the resources for free. And I know this couldn't happen overnight. But to say it is totally impossible ever is just silly. I believe socialism is better than capitalism because capitalism easily descends into "profits before people." I clearly do not support the kind of "socialism" we saw in the USSR, but instead liberterian socialism. The cold hard capitalism of today is destroying this planet and if we don't change our ways soon, this society will collapse.

Socialists are liars. I live in Nepal, I supported the socialists and communists and was one of the student protestors in the revolution against the monarchy. Big mistake, they’re worse than the king.

You have already been warned for this. *** 1 day ban *** for trolling.

[Cisairse]

That is not true, and is actually quite ignorant about political theory.

Economically that's true, however, what mistake am I making with respect to political theory?

There are many economic systems that are not covered by the three terms you posted. There are non-command forms of decentralized socialism, for example; there's also many more esoteric economic models out there that don't cleanly fall into the groups you mentioned, such as communalism.

[Sundiata]

Economically that's true, however, what mistake am I making with respect to political theory?

There are many economic systems that are not covered by the three terms you posted. There are non-command forms of decentralized socialism, for example; there's also many more esoteric economic models out there that don't cleanly fall into the groups you mentioned, such as communalism.

You can have a socialist market economy but the three kinds of economies are mixed-market, market, and command. Yes, you can even have a capitalist command economy.

Every possible system you can concieve falls under those three parameters.

[Cisairse]

There are many economic systems that are not covered by the three terms you posted. There are non-command forms of decentralized socialism, for example; there's also many more esoteric economic models out there that don't cleanly fall into the groups you mentioned, such as communalism.

You can have a socialist market economy but the three kinds of economies are mixed-market, market, and command. Yes, you can even have a capitalist command economy.

Every possible system you can concieve falls under those three parameters.

How about a post-malthusian economic system where all economic activity is produced by unowned autonomous robots, and humans are allowed to choose freely from the robot-produced goods what they would like without any need to pay for them?

Is this system market, mixed-market, or command?

[The Red Sword]

You can have a socialist market economy but the three kinds of economies are mixed-market, market, and command. Yes, you can even have a capitalist command economy.

Every possible system you can concieve falls under those three parameters.

How about a post-malthusian economic system where all economic activity is produced by unowned autonomous robots, and humans are allowed to choose freely from the robot-produced goods what they would like without any need to pay for them?

Is this system market, mixed-market, or command?

That'd be command, I think.

It's also an absolutely horrid way to run an economy, but that's besides the point.

[Monsone]

Alright, being a bit of a Titoist myself, I agree that pure capitalisim (i.e. Robber Baron Capitalisim or Unregulated Free Market Capitalisim) is deeply flawed and should not be the benchmark for a society. However I do support a regulated market economy with state run industries taking part but not hogging the market. Similarly, "socialist" welfare planes are also something I deeply support save for giving out moeny for free (because there are other, better alternatives).

But from a perspective of someone who as deeply read into history, Soviet Socialisim from the Kurshcev Era on was in many ways State Capitalisim with sovial welfare programs. And while the USSR did colapse, it was because of incompetence and a whole range of other factors that had more to do with the Soviet work ethos of cram working and doing less with more to get aloted more resources. However if a planned economy is to be made, to prevent it's colapse, it must adopt capitalist characteristics like creating more supply to meet demand. And that's been the key failing of "communist" countries. Shortages of everything from cars and consumer goods to basic necessities like food have clouded the vision of people to think that a planned economy is innefficient when it wasn't that planing and economy was the failing, instead it was gross missmanagement by the implementors of the plans.

Also, the descirption of Socialisim at the begining of this thread is very missleading. Social Democracy is not socialism per-se, it's democracy with socialist aspects. A prime example of socialisim is Cuba, and to a lesser extent North Korea (though Juche does stress autraky more than normal socialism). In both of these societies, people still get food rations, they get paid low salaries because the state provides everything else, and demmand is not met with supply except for the most basic of goods (save for North Korea where demmand far outstrips supply for everything). Socialisim is best described as the government running your life, and in turn you prop the government up with your work. Not the Social Democracy aspects of a market or mixed economy with social programs to take care of the less fortunate which are meant to be temporary stopgaps and not the main means of subsitence for people.

[Sundiata]

You can have a socialist market economy but the three kinds of economies are mixed-market, market, and command. Yes, you can even have a capitalist command economy.

Every possible system you can concieve falls under those three parameters.

How about a post-malthusian economic system where all economic activity is produced by unowned autonomous robots, and humans are allowed to choose freely from the robot-produced goods what they would like without any need to pay for them?

Is this system market, mixed-market, or command?

Command economy.

[Cisairse]

How about a post-malthusian economic system where all economic activity is produced by unowned autonomous robots, and humans are allowed to choose freely from the robot-produced goods what they would like without any need to pay for them?

Is this system market, mixed-market, or command?

That'd be command, I think.

It's also an absolutely horrid way to run an economy, but that's besides the point.

How is it a command economy without a centralized command?

And, I agree it's a pretty stupid way to run an economy. My point is that it's very simplistic to the point of being actually incorrect to say that all economic systems are either free market systems, mixed-market systems, or command economies.

[Cisairse]

How about a post-malthusian economic system where all economic activity is produced by unowned autonomous robots, and humans are allowed to choose freely from the robot-produced goods what they would like without any need to pay for them?

Is this system market, mixed-market, or command?

Command economy.

How is it a command economy with no central command?

[Diarcesia]

Command economy.

How is it a command economy with no central command?

The command is crowdsourced or AI-generated.

[Geneviev]

1. I do not agree with using social democracy as the definition for socialism. They are extremely different.
2. Socialism is better. Among other things, capitalism has led to the development of various forms of oppression, including sexism, racism, and homophobia, in addition to the crimes of imperialism. It also requires the exploitation of labor by the capitalists. Socialism would allow the people to have full democratic rights and to benefit from the fruits of their labor instead of it being stolen from them by the capitalists.

I agree. The main goal of the government should NOT be to maximize profits and the economy, but rather use those as a means to further the prosperity of its people. A society that is built to serve the people is best, but only when paired to democracy so that the government can be kept in check and so that the government is truly representing the needs and wants of the citizenry.

Also, I'll change the word to Socialism for brevity.

Yes. Full democracy, however, is not just voting for politicians. It is having control over the government, and the economy, and the means of production. Government shouldn't just try to serve people, it should be the people.

[Cisairse]

How is it a command economy with no central command?

The command is crowdsourced or AI-generated.

How is that a command, then?

By that logic, market economies are also command economies.

[Diarcesia]

The command is crowdsourced or AI-generated.

How is that a command, then?

By that logic, market economies are also command economies.

I'm not sure how I can put what I'm thinking right now, but I'm imagining like a grassroots-driven mechanism to "command" the economy via referendums. Or maybe a bunch of AIs acting like a hive and effectively taking place of the centralized government in a typical command economy.

[Cisairse]

How is that a command, then?

By that logic, market economies are also command economies.

I'm not sure how I can put what I'm thinking right now, but I'm imagining like a grassroots-driven mechanism to "command" the economy via referendums. Or maybe a bunch of AIs acting like a hive and effectively taking place of the centralized government in a typical command economy.

I stipulated unowned robots

But anyway, the entire point of this thought experiment is to demonstrate that decentralized non-market economies don't fall into the trichotomy presented.

[Unifair]

Capitalism seems to lean towards profits more than people,at least how I interpret it.Democratic Socialism from what I could find seems to favour political democracy in a socially owned economy championing economic and workplace democracy and workers' self-management within a market socialist economy or decentralised planned socialist economy.

I doubt that freedom,equality,worker’s rights and solidarity are compatible with capitalism and its ruthless and unscrupulous hunger for profits over everything else and to control and monopolize and exploit everything it deems of value.

Democratic Socialism seems to be more about socialism that capitalism to me.