In Defence of All Lives Matter

[Ostroeuropa]

I don't watch fox news. Again, you're revealing a pretty tribalist worldview.

Systemic racism is something the PPC argues against, but their campaign is not centered on police brutality. It's also poor etiquette to cut a quote, here, let me get that for you. Wouldn't want you to get detatched from the reality of this conversation by ignoring it.

And yet, your statement that the Poor People's Campaign is not involved with Black Lives Matter was false.

I didn't say they weren't involved. I said they don't particularly campaign on the issue of police violence. Tweets aren't campaigns, i'm sorry to tell you. Which is true. They have sister organizations like the CUAPB which do that, and they do it better than BLM.

[Brunswick-upon-Raritan]

No it's not. How is presence = absence? This is stupidity speaking.

If I say I care about White People, All White people, including Disabled People, am I being inclusive, or exclusive?
Am I caring about Disabled people, or am I just caring about White people to the point that if they're white that's all that matters.

You're saying simply caring about white people is racist and exclusive? Lol. I mean, that's certainly a perspective.

[Brunswick-upon-Raritan]

And yet, your statement that the Poor People's Campaign is not involved with Black Lives Matter was false.

I didn't say they weren't involved. I said they don't particularly campaign on the issue of police violence. Tweets aren't campaigns, i'm sorry to tell you. Which is true. They have sister organizations like the CUAPB which do that, and they do it better than BLM.

Some of the tweets were about organizing and events, you fundamentally don't understand how any of these organizations work.

[Ostroeuropa]

If I say I care about White People, All White people, including Disabled People, am I being inclusive, or exclusive?
Am I caring about Disabled people, or am I just caring about White people to the point that if they're white that's all that matters.

You're saying simply caring about white people is racist and exclusive? Lol. I mean, that's certainly a perspective.

When campaigning on an issue that impacts others as well as white people, yes i'd say that is racism.

Similarly BLM's race reductionism means they fail to include non-black people who fall prey to police violence due to other factors.

I note you still haven't sourced anything showing BLM campaigns for other demographics.

[Federal Republic Of America And The Cari]

"Safe Spaces" for black people is just racial segregation being dressed up differently.

Indeed. The far left position has somehow became the far right position. Horseshoe.

My oh my the tables have turned since 'nam

[Brunswick-upon-Raritan]

You're saying simply caring about white people is racist and exclusive? Lol. I mean, that's certainly a perspective.

When campaigning on an issue that impacts others as well as white people, yes i'd say that is racism.

Similarly BLM's race reductionism means they fail to include non-black people who fall prey to police violence due to other factors.

So I suppose the Black Panther Party teaming up with the white Young Patriots Organization was also racist and exclusive.

People just aren't siloed the way you think they are.

[Brunswick-upon-Raritan]

Similarly BLM's race reductionism means they fail to include non-black people who fall prey to police violence due to other factors.

Fascinating unsourced accusation with zero basis in the lives of people organizing for civil rights either for black people or any other demographic...

[Ostroeuropa]

When campaigning on an issue that impacts others as well as white people, yes i'd say that is racism.

Similarly BLM's race reductionism means they fail to include non-black people who fall prey to police violence due to other factors.

So I suppose the Black Panther Party teaming up with the white Young Patriots Organization was also racist and exclusive.

People just aren't siloed the way you think they are.

A coalition is greater than the sum of its parts? You don't say, stop the presses.

It remains the case that BLM is race reductionist and exclusive. It's only through cooperation with other groups that the coalition ceases to have those problems, even if component parts still do.

[Ostroeuropa]

Similarly BLM's race reductionism means they fail to include non-black people who fall prey to police violence due to other factors.

Fascinating unsourced accusation with zero basis in the lives of people organizing for civil rights either for black people or any other demographic...

I sourced it earlier. You've not responded with your own source to show BLM isn't this, just kept saying my claims are unsourced and unfounded despite the fact I quoted directly from their website.

[Brunswick-upon-Raritan]

So I suppose the Black Panther Party teaming up with the white Young Patriots Organization was also racist and exclusive.

People just aren't siloed the way you think they are.

A coalition is greater than the sum of its parts? You don't say, stop the presses.

It remains the case that BLM is race reductionist and exclusive. It's only through cooperation with other groups that the coalition ceases to have those problems, even if component parts still do.

So unless EVERYONE is completely a-racial it's still somehow racist. Wrong.

[Brunswick-upon-Raritan]

Fascinating unsourced accusation with zero basis in the lives of people organizing for civil rights either for black people or any other demographic...

I sourced it earlier. You've not responded with your own source to show BLM isn't this, just kept saying my claims are unsourced and unfounded despite the fact I quoted directly from their website.

Yeah and made the mental fallacy of thinking that if someone says something about themselves, they must be ignoring you.

[Duvniask]

You're saying simply caring about white people is racist and exclusive? Lol. I mean, that's certainly a perspective.

When campaigning on an issue that impacts others as well as white people, yes i'd say that is racism.

Similarly BLM's race reductionism means they fail to include non-black people who fall prey to police violence due to other factors.

I note you still haven't sourced anything showing BLM campaigns for other demographics.

Jesus fucking Christ. It's Black Lives Matter because Black people are the demographic suffering the most from this. Obviously it'd be great if all police violence could come to an end, but we see time and time again that American police demonstrate particular disregard for the lives of African Americans.

You strike one as the type of person that would complain about society being misandrist because of male suicide rates (even though women obviously commit suicide too, of course), so I don't get why you find such particular issue with people trying to address how a specific group suffers overwhelming from a certain problem. Are you gonna complain about activists that try to bring attention to male suicide, too? Given your past history on this forum, I would find that very hard to believe.

[Ostroeuropa]

A coalition is greater than the sum of its parts? You don't say, stop the presses.

It remains the case that BLM is race reductionist and exclusive. It's only through cooperation with other groups that the coalition ceases to have those problems, even if component parts still do.

So unless EVERYONE is completely a-racial it's still somehow racist. Wrong.

No. You've fundamentally not understood. Being a-racial would be some other form of reductionist and exclusive narrative on police violence, since it would fail to include the racial element of describing that phenomana.

CUAPB is a non-racist organization that manages to describe police brutality and its many manifestations without being reductionist or exclusive. It mentions racism and how that's one. BLM on the other hand, doesn't manage to be exclusive due to a race reductionist focus that excludes others. In coalition with other groups, the coalition as a whole can lack this problem, but its component parts will still suffer problems.

I sourced it earlier. You've not responded with your own source to show BLM isn't this, just kept saying my claims are unsourced and unfounded despite the fact I quoted directly from their website.

Yeah and made the mental fallacy of thinking that if someone says something about themselves, they must be ignoring you.

It's a page stating the purpose of the organization and its goals and focuses.

Let's try this.

I'm basically telling you that the Liberal Democrats are a shit party not fit to run the country because they ignore too many issues.

And you're turning around and saying "Ah but, the Labour party covers those issues, and the Lib Dems enter coalition with them a lot.".

Okay.

But that still means the Lib Dems aren't fit to run the country. They are only fit to be in association with other groups, because their focus is limited and lacking in a holistic approach.

It also ignores that, right over there, the Labour party (CUAPB) covers all the necessary issues to the extent we have no need for the liberal democrats to exist at all.

[Brunswick-upon-Raritan]

Rhetoric != Reality

[Brunswick-upon-Raritan]

This is a fundamentamental misunderstanding of the Black Lives Matter movement that transposes the real organizing being done in the world with generalizations, stereotypes, and fake antagonisms.

[Ostroeuropa]

When campaigning on an issue that impacts others as well as white people, yes i'd say that is racism.

Similarly BLM's race reductionism means they fail to include non-black people who fall prey to police violence due to other factors.

I note you still haven't sourced anything showing BLM campaigns for other demographics.

Jesus fucking Christ. It's Black Lives Matter because Black people are the demographic suffering the most from this. Obviously it'd be great if all police violence could come to an end, but we see time and time again that American police demonstrate particular disregard for the lives of African Americans.

You strike one as the type of person that would complain about society being misandrist because of male suicide rates (even though women obviously commit suicide too, of course), so I don't get why you find such particular issue with people trying to address the problem of a specific group suffering overwhelming from a certain problem. Are you gonna complain about activists that try to bring attention to male suicide, too? Given your past history on this forum, I would find that very hard to believe.

Firstly, Men are the demographic suffering most from this as charts on other pages show.
Secondly, I'm an MRA specifically because of this kind of criticism of feminism and its insular focus. I don't like solutions that aren't holistic and which don't cover all affected demographics.
Thirdly, I suspect Police brutality as an institutional issue can only be dismantled holistically unless you bring Black people out of "Otherness" status, because so long as the police are beating up "others", it's in vain to hope you can get them to make an exception for one sort of other.
Fourth, I don't have much problem with BLM existing and campaigning. I only note the flaws with their organization, framing, and praxis, specifically so that we can acknowledge the need for other groups.

Fifth, there's a difference between the men-women divide here, and the black-disabled-poor stuff. I'm not arguing we need to "Remember to end police violence against whiteness", I'm claiming that we need to end it against other identities as well as blackness. With the men-women stuff, a lot of that would be equivalent to "End police violence against whiteness", I.E, framing a privileged group as oppressed.

[Brunswick-upon-Raritan]

Fourth, I don't have much problem with BLM existing and campaigning. I only note the flaws with their organization, framing, and praxis, specifically so that we can acknowledge the need for other groups.

This is fake antagonism, crying wolf over the exclusion of "other groups" that themselves have no problem coordinating with one another.

[Ostroeuropa]

Fourth, I don't have much problem with BLM existing and campaigning. I only note the flaws with their organization, framing, and praxis, specifically so that we can acknowledge the need for other groups.

This is fake antagonism, crying wolf over the exclusion of "other groups" that themselves have no problem coordinating with one another.

The reason there is a need to coordinate is the reasons i'm noting. You appear to be angry about that being noticed for some reason.

[Brunswick-upon-Raritan]

This is fake antagonism, crying wolf over the exclusion of "other groups" that themselves have no problem coordinating with one another.

The reason there is a need to coordinate is the reasons i'm noting. You appear to be angry about that being noticed for some reason.

No, I never said a bad word about the CUABP, but you seem to think the PPC, BLM, and CUABP ought to be pitted against one another. It's antagonization over organization, and it's telling that the splintering of the left is being pushed by MRAs.

[Brunswick-upon-Raritan]

Tweets aren't campaigns, i'm sorry to tell you. Which is true. They have sister organizations like the CUAPB which do that, and they do it better than BLM.

Fake antagonism and condescension towards other people's organizing, this is the opposite of what people in PPC, BLM, and CUAPB actually do.

[Ostroeuropa]

The reason there is a need to coordinate is the reasons i'm noting. You appear to be angry about that being noticed for some reason.

No, I never said a bad word about the CUABP, but you seem to think the PPC, BLM, and CUABP ought to be pitted against one another. It's antagonization over organization, and it's telling that the splintering of the left is being pushed by MRAs.

Not particularly. I'm saying that BLM is only positive when it coalition with others and pointing out why that is, due to its limitations in terms of how it frames this issue. That's hardly a push for splintering. It's noting the need for coalitions. You appear to think criticism means opposition.

As for your "It's telling the splintering of the left is being pushed for by MRAs", aside from that being a nonsense interpretation of what i'm arguing here, it's a pretty telling insight into your worldview. About half of MRAs are left wing, myself included. I'd suggest you examine whether this is a paranoid understanding of what the MRM stands for.

[Brunswick-upon-Raritan]

Not particularly. I'm saying that BLM is only positive when it coalition with others and pointing out why that is, due to its limitations in terms of how it frames this issue. That's hardly a push for splintering. It's noting the need for coalitions. You appear to think criticism means opposition.

As for your "It's telling the splintering of the left is being pushed for by MRAs", aside from that being a nonsense interpretation of what i'm arguing here, it's a pretty telling insight into your worldview. About half of MRAs are left wing, myself included

Disagree. BLM emphasizes race in analysis of police brutality to the exclusion and marginalization of other factors, notably sex, disability, and class.

That was your own thesis, it is not a call for coalition, and it's not even right.

[Ostroeuropa]

Not particularly. I'm saying that BLM is only positive when it coalition with others and pointing out why that is, due to its limitations in terms of how it frames this issue. That's hardly a push for splintering. It's noting the need for coalitions. You appear to think criticism means opposition.

As for your "It's telling the splintering of the left is being pushed for by MRAs", aside from that being a nonsense interpretation of what i'm arguing here, it's a pretty telling insight into your worldview. About half of MRAs are left wing, myself included

Disagree. BLM emphasizes race in analysis of police brutality to the exclusion and marginalization of other factors, notably sex, disability, and class.

That was your own thesis, it is not a call for coalition, and it's not even right.

That's why there's a need for coalition with other groups that are not exclusive of those topics in order for BLM to be positive. What about this specifically are you not understanding?

[Brunswick-upon-Raritan]

About half of MRAs are left wing, myself included. I'd suggest you examine whether this is a paranoid understanding of what the MRM stands for. I'd suggest you examine whether this is a paranoid understanding of what the MRM stands for.

By your own logic focusing on men is some kind of reactionary exclusion; if you replaced those MRs with BLs, you would draw the opposite conclusion because you also have a "paranoid understanding" of what BLM stands for.

[Ifreann]

ALL LIVES MATTERhehe

Cite me one time a white man attempting to pass a phony $20 bill was knelt on by a cop for ten minutes until he died. Then get back to me.

A white man gave me a counterfeit €20 bill once. I told him it wasn't real, showed him that it wasn't real, and after an appropriate amount of complaining about being given fake money he paid with real money.