In Defence of All Lives Matter

[Vassenor]

So here's one for the All Lives Matter crowd: Maybe, instead of trying to shout down the Black Lives Matter stuff, you should address the reasons why they're made to feel that their lives don't matter.

Maybe you should reconsider your slogan and why people may prefer the phrase All Lives Matter. Both sides feel their beliefs are justified and both have rationalisations. Repectfully considering another's POV can only strengthen ones own argument.

Imagine you're at a march for breast cancer awareness or something. You see someone holding a sign that says "support breast cancer patients!" or some other similar generic expression.

Do you then throw a hissy fit and shout "SUPPORT ALL CANCER PATIENTS" and demand they chance their sign to say "support breast cancer patients too!". Presumably not, because that would be retarded. Everyone knows they are marching because they feel breast cancer is in need of special awareness; they can also do that, whilst still sympathizing with the suffering of all other types of patients. It's not like the act of calling attention to a certain disadvantaged group means you implicitly do not care about all other groups.

That's a straw man argument. And breast cancer patients can be of any ethnicity so I don't get your analogy.

Truly, If BLM meant Black Lives Matter Too, that would be the title. Make your points clear and explicit if you don't wish to be misunderstood or your ideology bastardised.

So you have no explanation for why black people feel like their lives don't matter.

[Aureumterra]

Is this still relevant? I haven’t heard the phrase "black lives matter" in two years. Of course there are going to be crazy people who want to abolish the police as a whole and all that anarchist stuff, but luckily society doesn’t take those types seriously

This post didn’t age well at all

[Ostroeuropa]

All Lives Matter makes some degree of sense imo, because police murders and brutality affects all demographics and the degree to which it is leveled at black people is merely one aspect of it.

It's better understood as an intersectional problem where all "Low status" and "disposable" individuals are subjected to police violence.

All lives matter in the context of that meaning black, homeless, drug addicts, poor, etc, more accurately and powerfully gets across the point that the police is an institution enforcing social hierarchies through violence and murder. By asserting that these peoples lives do matter and so on.

Unfortunately we've seen the negative campaigning aspect of it come to the fore rather than "All lives matter" protests when a homeless guy gets beaten/shot and so on. If that were how it was used, and if at that point, ALM protestors turned up to a black shooting protest, it would be fairly trivial to argue that BLM is in a narrow minded and racist movement ignoring the wider problem. (Which it is. But there's no highground for ALMers to argue that when they spend their energy counter-protesting BLM rather than protesting police shootings regardless of demographic).

If all lives really do matter, why do ALMers only turn up to protests about a black person being shot? Do the other lives lost... not matter?

ALM relies on using better theory than BLM in order to disguise terrible praxis, that terrible praxis being rooted in a different theory than the one they use to defend their actions. A legitimate ALM movement would be able to note that BLM is racist and relies on Black (Relative) Privilege, that is, because Black people have the ability to organize in their communities they are now fighting for their issues, whereas other forms of socially disposable group do not have that to anywhere near the same extent. You're not going to see the homeless noting a homeless person got shot, get together, and go riot. Drug addicts cannot openly protest and riot. Prostitutes and so on can't form organizations to campaign on their civil rights, and so on.

So ALM is mostly well to do white folk going out there *pretending* to fight on behalf of all socially disposable people in order to denounce BLM's racism and insular focus, and BLM is utilizing its relative privilege to ignore solidarity with other socially disadvantaged groups.

[Satuga]

All Lives Matter makes some degree of sense imo, because police murders and brutality affects all demographics and the degree to which it is leveled at black people is merely one aspect of it.

It's better understood as an intersectional problem where all "Low status" and "disposable" individuals are subjected to police violence.

All lives matter in the context of that meaning black, homeless, drug addicts, poor, etc, more accurately and powerfully gets across the point that the police is an institution enforcing social hierarchies through violence and murder. By asserting that these peoples lives do matter and so on.

Unfortunately we've seen the negative campaigning aspect of it come to the fore rather than "All lives matter" protests when a homeless guy gets beaten/shot and so on. If that were how it was used, and if at that point, ALM protestors turned up to a black shooting protest, it would be fairly trivial to argue that BLM is in a narrow minded and racist movement ignoring the wider problem. (Which it is. But there's no highground for ALMers to argue that when they spend their energy counter-protesting BLM rather than protesting police shootings regardless of demographic).

If all lives really do matter, why do ALMers only turn up to protests about a black person being shot? Do the other lives lost... not matter?

I would say that last part is the fault of the MSM since black involved shootings garner a much wider click than a non black shooting. I for one remember that one case where a drunk white guy who was shooting bb's in his apartments was confronted with asinine commands that made no sense and then one of the officers shot and killed him. That was a pretty big thing that happened that pretty much fucking everyone got pissed about.

[Satuga]

All Lives Matter makes some degree of sense imo, because police murders and brutality affects all demographics and the degree to which it is leveled at black people is merely one aspect of it.

It's better understood as an intersectional problem where all "Low status" and "disposable" individuals are subjected to police violence.

All lives matter in the context of that meaning black, homeless, drug addicts, poor, etc, more accurately and powerfully gets across the point that the police is an institution enforcing social hierarchies through violence and murder. By asserting that these peoples lives do matter and so on.

Unfortunately we've seen the negative campaigning aspect of it come to the fore rather than "All lives matter" protests when a homeless guy gets beaten/shot and so on. If that were how it was used, and if at that point, ALM protestors turned up to a black shooting protest, it would be fairly trivial to argue that BLM is in a narrow minded and racist movement ignoring the wider problem. (Which it is. But there's no highground for ALMers to argue that when they spend their energy counter-protesting BLM rather than protesting police shootings regardless of demographic).

If all lives really do matter, why do ALMers only turn up to protests about a black person being shot? Do the other lives lost... not matter?

ALM relies on using better theory than BLM in order to disguise terrible praxis, that terrible praxis being rooted in a different theory than the one they use to defend their actions. A legitimate ALM movement would be able to note that BLM is racist and relies on Black (Relative) Privilege, that is, because Black people have the ability to organize in their communities they are now fighting for their issues, whereas other forms of socially disposable group do not have that to anywhere near the same extent. You're not going to see the homeless noting a homeless person got shot, get together, and go riot. Drug addicts cannot openly protest and riot. Prostitutes and so on can't form organizations to campaign on their civil rights, and so on.

So ALM is mostly well to do white folk going out there *pretending* to fight on behalf of all socially disposable people in order to denounce BLM's racism and insular focus, and BLM is utilizing its relative privilege to ignore solidarity with other socially disadvantaged groups.

They didn't note that the movement as a whole was racist but they did confront that many key figures of the BLM movement had said very racially aggressive things, most commonly known one is the "Please Allah give me the strength to not cuss/kill these men and white folks out here today." by one of the co founders of BLM. Not exactly the type of person I'd want running a anti-racist movement.

[Rojava Free State]

All Lives Matter makes some degree of sense imo, because police murders and brutality affects all demographics and the degree to which it is leveled at black people is merely one aspect of it.

It's better understood as an intersectional problem where all "Low status" and "disposable" individuals are subjected to police violence.

All lives matter in the context of that meaning black, homeless, drug addicts, poor, etc, more accurately and powerfully gets across the point that the police is an institution enforcing social hierarchies through violence and murder. By asserting that these peoples lives do matter and so on.

As a minority, I agree with this sentiment. In my experience with the police, they were oppurunistic bullies that went around looking for targets. They didn't just go after black people. They went after anyone who they thought wouldn't be able to legally stand up for themselves, and who society wouldn't give a shit about. Homeless people, drug addicts, prostitutes, teenagers from poor communities, the mentally ill. While black people do get targeted by cops alot, I wouldnt say this issue is exclusive to them. I'm not black and my experience with the police has been negative as hell. And one friend of mine was tased by the police over the crime of stealing pumpkins on halloween.

[Rojava Free State]

All Lives Matter makes some degree of sense imo, because police murders and brutality affects all demographics and the degree to which it is leveled at black people is merely one aspect of it.

It's better understood as an intersectional problem where all "Low status" and "disposable" individuals are subjected to police violence.

All lives matter in the context of that meaning black, homeless, drug addicts, poor, etc, more accurately and powerfully gets across the point that the police is an institution enforcing social hierarchies through violence and murder. By asserting that these peoples lives do matter and so on.

Unfortunately we've seen the negative campaigning aspect of it come to the fore rather than "All lives matter" protests when a homeless guy gets beaten/shot and so on. If that were how it was used, and if at that point, ALM protestors turned up to a black shooting protest, it would be fairly trivial to argue that BLM is in a narrow minded and racist movement ignoring the wider problem. (Which it is. But there's no highground for ALMers to argue that when they spend their energy counter-protesting BLM rather than protesting police shootings regardless of demographic).

If all lives really do matter, why do ALMers only turn up to protests about a black person being shot? Do the other lives lost... not matter?

ALM relies on using better theory than BLM in order to disguise terrible praxis, that terrible praxis being rooted in a different theory than the one they use to defend their actions. A legitimate ALM movement would be able to note that BLM is racist and relies on Black (Relative) Privilege, that is, because Black people have the ability to organize in their communities they are now fighting for their issues, whereas other forms of socially disposable group do not have that to anywhere near the same extent. You're not going to see the homeless noting a homeless person got shot, get together, and go riot. Drug addicts cannot openly protest and riot. Prostitutes and so on can't form organizations to campaign on their civil rights, and so on.

So ALM is mostly well to do white folk going out there *pretending* to fight on behalf of all socially disposable people in order to denounce BLM's racism and insular focus, and BLM is utilizing its relative privilege to ignore solidarity with other socially disadvantaged groups.

They didn't note that the movement as a whole was racist but they did confront that many key figures of the BLM movement had said very racially aggressive things, most commonly known one is the "Please Allah give me the strength to not cuss/kill these men and white folks out here today." by one of the co founders of BLM. Not exactly the type of person I'd want running a anti-racist movement.

People like that need to relocate to a mostly black country. They clearly cannot function in a mostly white society.

[Satuga]

They didn't note that the movement as a whole was racist but they did confront that many key figures of the BLM movement had said very racially aggressive things, most commonly known one is the "Please Allah give me the strength to not cuss/kill these men and white folks out here today." by one of the co founders of BLM. Not exactly the type of person I'd want running a anti-racist movement.

People like that need to relocate to a mostly black country. They clearly cannot function in a mostly white society.

I say a Racial tolerance class would be both more fitting and quite ironic.

[Duvniask]

Imagine you're at a march for breast cancer awareness or something. You see someone holding a sign that says "support breast cancer patients!" or some other similar generic expression.

Do you then throw a hissy fit and shout "SUPPORT ALL CANCER PATIENTS" and demand they chance their sign to say "support breast cancer patients too!". Presumably not, because that would be retarded. Everyone knows they are marching because they feel breast cancer is in need of special awareness; they can also do that, whilst still sympathizing with the suffering of all other types of patients. It's not like the act of calling attention to a certain disadvantaged group means you implicitly do not care about all other groups.

That's a straw man argument. And breast cancer patients can be of any ethnicity so I don't get your analogy.

Truly, If BLM meant Black Lives Matter Too, that would be the title. Make your points clear and explicit if you don't wish to be misunderstood or your ideology bastardised.

How is it a strawman argument? The position of All Lives Matter is literally just that, a statement that all lives matter, as if "Black Lives Matter" was ever a statement about others lives being unimportant. Like I show you with the analogy, such a view is not applied in other, similar circumstances where a protest/awareness movement calls attention to the plight of a specific group.

Ethnicity has nothing to do with the underlying logic at play, mate. It has to do with the fact that calling attention to a particular group of people, expressing their plight and saying "these people's lives matter, we should help them" is fundamentally just that. In both instances, with Blacks and breast cancer patients that happens, because both groups suffer from some kind of disadvantage that the movement seeks to address. Why deride Black Lives Matter for something you would (probably) never deride the other movement for? That is essentially the point of the analogy - ethnicity doesn't matter, it has to do with disadvantaged groups.

[Ostroeuropa]

That's a straw man argument. And breast cancer patients can be of any ethnicity so I don't get your analogy.

Truly, If BLM meant Black Lives Matter Too, that would be the title. Make your points clear and explicit if you don't wish to be misunderstood or your ideology bastardised.

How is it a strawman argument? The position of All Lives Matter is literally just that, a statement that all lives matter, as if "Black Lives Matter" was ever a statement about others lives being unimportant. Like I show you with the analogy, such a view is not applied in other, similar circumstances where a protest/awareness movement calls attention to the plight of a specific group.

Ethnicity has nothing to do with the underlying logic at play, mate. It has to do with the fact that calling attention to a particular group of people, expressing their plight and saying "these people's lives matter, we should help them" is fundamentally just that. In both instances, with Blacks and breast cancer patients that happens, because both groups suffer from some kind of disadvantage that the movement seeks to address. Why deride Black Lives Matter for something you would (probably) never deride the other movement for? That is essentially the point of the analogy - ethnicity doesn't matter, it has to do with disadvantaged groups.

With the breast cancer example there's an argument that it's calling attention to a particular problem or manifestation of it.
I'm not convinced this is true for black lives matter.

It's like;

Breast Cancer Matters V Cancer Matters.

Both acceptable statements.

"White peoples breast cancer matters" is a curious framing however that requires justification that i'm not sure can be given, since it's no longer discussing a particular problem, but appears to be seeking to privilege particular sufferers of it.

In the case of Black Lives matter, a lack of intersectional theory in analyzing the problem of police violence is a problem.

The issue (The breast cancer), is police violence and murder.

While it's true that black people suffer more than white people in this regard, they are not the only group to suffer, and it would be more accurate to understand the issue as police violence being directed at socially disposable groups, of which black people are merely one.

The issue is one of police violence against black people, mentally ill people, the homeless, drug users, prostitutes, and so on and so on.

BLM is a race reductionist approach to the issue and for that reason is problematic. There is nothing particularly racial about police violence. Police violence is directed at socially disposable persons. That black people are socially disposable is due to their race, but that's a slightly different matter from police violence being directed at them for their race. It's a step removed from that.

So if you want to discuss "Black people are not socially disposable", that's one thing. But if you want to discuss "Police violence is being directed at black people because they are black", I think that's a questionable framing that ignores issues of mental illness, addition, and poverty and how those groups suffer similarly.

[Salus Maior]

All lives matter, yes. However, some lives are more at risk than others.

[The Emerald Legion]

I've read a lot of articles by pro-Black Lives Matter groups about why they don't like the phrase All Lives Matter, but I've never seen anyone defend the All Lives Matter phrase instead. I am curious to see what supporters have to say on the matter. On the one hand, I understand that racial profiling and police brutality may be an issue but on the other, I see that law enforcement is necessary for any non-Utopian society and most police officers risk life and limb to save lives, not end them.

Any supporters of All Lives Matter are welcome here.

So maybe you can explain how "Black Lives Matter" somehow implies that other lives don't.

Perhaps because BLM doesn't make a statement on it either way. Then it also has a funny tendency to expect non-blacks to give blacks things for free. Like all the times they take over stages or demand money.

[Murray land]

I wrote a whole response and then remembered what site im on. NS- "Logic and reason have no place here"

[US-SSR]

We feel as if there was a knee on all of our collective necks—a knee that says black life does not matter to the institutions that dictate what happens in this culture and society.

-- Minneapolis City Council Vice President Andrea Jenkins

BLACK LIVES MATTER

[Satuga]

We feel as if there was a knee on all of our collective necks—a knee that says black life does not matter to the institutions that dictate what happens in this culture and society.

-- Minneapolis City Council Vice President Andrea Jenkins

BLACK LIVES MATTER

ALL LIVES MATTERhehe

[US-SSR]

BLACK LIVES MATTER

ALL LIVES MATTERhehe

Cite me one time a white man attempting to pass a phony $20 bill was knelt on by a cop for ten minutes until he died. Then get back to me.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Sure, all lives matter. But right now, because they face far more violence than whites in the US, we’re focusing on black lives. You know, since we live in a country where jogging/driving/etc while black can get you killed and all that... yeah.

[Rojava Free State]

Sure, all lives matter. But right now, because they face far more violence than whites in the US, we’re focusing on black lives. You know, since we live in a country where jogging/driving/etc while black can get you killed and all that... yeah.

I wouldnt say far more. Disproportionately more but far is a little far.

I really wanna see a study control for economics because I really have a hard time believing that what happened to Floyd would happen to in Hyde park to a Barack Obama. I always see wealthy minorities come out at times like these trying to pretend they experience the same shit as us but at day's end the police are protecting them. The thin blue line is between the Kwame Kilpatrick's and Ray Nagan's of the world and us. These folks are virtue signaling cause they fear us just the same.

[Rojava Free State]

ALL LIVES MATTERhehe

Cite me one time a white man attempting to pass a phony $20 bill was knelt on by a cop for ten minutes until he died. Then get back to me.

Did you forget Daniel Shaver?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Daniel_Shaver

[Satuga]

ALL LIVES MATTERhehe

Cite me one time a white man attempting to pass a phony $20 bill was knelt on by a cop for ten minutes until he died. Then get back to me.

Clearly you haven't kept up with the thread that much if you thought I was being anything but joking in that quote, I even had the small "hehe's" in there.
But sure heres:
https://reason.com/2014/07/17/cop-shoots-17-year-old-boy-who-answers-d/
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/12/a-police-killing-without-a-hint-of-racism/546983/
I will say it is much harder to find these, but then again racial based news gets more clicks for news articles so that could a reason why.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Sure, all lives matter. But right now, because they face far more violence than whites in the US, we’re focusing on black lives. You know, since we live in a country where jogging/driving/etc while black can get you killed and all that... yeah.

I wouldnt say far more. Disproportionately more but far is a little far.

I really wanna see a study control for economics because I really have a hard time believing that what happened to Floyd would happen to in Hyde park to a Barack Obama. I always see wealthy minorities come out at times like these trying to pretend they experience the same shit as us but at day's end the police are protecting them. The thin blue line is between the Kwame Kilpatrick's and Ray Nagan's of the world and us. These folks are virtue signaling cause they fear us just the same.

Us as in? You talk about “us”.

The truth of the matter is that the list of black people who have been killed in the last months alone is worrying.

[US-SSR]

My apologies. I misspoke.

Make that three cops kneeling on a guy until he died.

[Rojava Free State]

I wouldnt say far more. Disproportionately more but far is a little far.

I really wanna see a study control for economics because I really have a hard time believing that what happened to Floyd would happen to in Hyde park to a Barack Obama. I always see wealthy minorities come out at times like these trying to pretend they experience the same shit as us but at day's end the police are protecting them. The thin blue line is between the Kwame Kilpatrick's and Ray Nagan's of the world and us. These folks are virtue signaling cause they fear us just the same.

Us as in? You talk about “us”.

The truth of the matter is that the list of black people who have been killed in the last months alone is worrying.

Us as in poor people, especially poor minorities. And yes black people do seem to be disproportionately killed by cops, but is it just because the police wanna kill all the minorities, or is it more complicated than that?

[Satuga]

I wouldnt say far more. Disproportionately more but far is a little far.

I really wanna see a study control for economics because I really have a hard time believing that what happened to Floyd would happen to in Hyde park to a Barack Obama. I always see wealthy minorities come out at times like these trying to pretend they experience the same shit as us but at day's end the police are protecting them. The thin blue line is between the Kwame Kilpatrick's and Ray Nagan's of the world and us. These folks are virtue signaling cause they fear us just the same.

Us as in? You talk about “us”.

The truth of the matter is that the list of black people who have been killed in the last months alone is worrying.

I'd like to see the whole list of people killed by police by race to see how many there actually have been all i've found is a stat of people shot and killed by police but not just deaths as a whole.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/

[Satuga]

My apologies. I misspoke.

Make that three cops kneeling on a guy until he died.

Well no, it was the one cop who kneeled on his neck, the other two were just holding him down as they should have, I say the one officer be charged for murder, and the others be fired or charged(if theres a law about this) for suspect negligence.