In Defence of All Lives Matter

[Roosevetania]

The problem as I see it isn't that "All Live Matter" is a disagreeable stance, but that the phrase grew out of an opposition to the statement "Black Lives Matter". Thus (despite the content of the phrase) it comes across as implicitly disagreeing that black lives matter.

I don't think that Black Lives Matter would have as much opposition if it weren't for how "Black Lives Matter" in practice means "Black Lives Are the Only Lives That Matter, and Even Then Only If They're Shot By the Police".

This is absurd, and it's never meant that. The phrase "Black Lives Matter" is a response to police racism, given that black Americans are much more likely to be shot and killed by police. Any other slogans or issues, such as "All Lives Matter" or concerns about "black-only spaces," are simply reactionary distractions. The phrase "All Lives Matter" is disingenuous and simply exists to dilute the concerns about racism.

[Roosevetania]

I don't think that Black Lives Matter would have as much opposition if it weren't for how "Black Lives Matter" in practice means "Black Lives Are the Only Lives That Matter, and Even Then Only If They're Shot By the Police".

Exactly. If a member of one of America’s various black communities wants to cry about how little Johnny got shot dead by police after assaulting a shop clerk and attacking an officer, then it really needs to be asked of them, what are they doing to stop their communities’ young men from turning to crime, and feeling like they have a God-given right to attack people and break laws? Also, they need to be asked about intra-racial crime within their own communities and if they care about that too.

Because funnily enough, I think many Black-Americans only seem to care when it’s the evil whitey pulling the trigger, and not a member of their own groups.

While a discussion about police racism in America is long overdue, and about the terror that officers get afflicted by when seeing a black man do quite literally anything, the issues I’ve mentioned need a separate, and deep look into themselves.

Again, this is a distraction by attempting to shift the problem from the police onto the community. "Black people are being shot and killed by police and an alarmingly high rate?? Well...13/50!!1!1!"

[Ifreann]

I don't think that Black Lives Matter would have as much opposition if it weren't for how "Black Lives Matter" in practice means "Black Lives Are the Only Lives That Matter, and Even Then Only If They're Shot By the Police".

Exactly. If a member of one of America’s various black communities wants to cry about how little Johnny got shot dead by police after assaulting a shop clerk and attacking an officer, then it really needs to be asked of them, what are they doing to stop their communities’ young men from turning to crime, and feeling like they have a God-given right to attack people and break laws? Also, they need to be asked about intra-racial crime within their own communities and if they care about that too.

Because funnily enough, I think many Black-Americans only seem to care when it’s the evil whitey pulling the trigger, and not a member of their own groups.

While a discussion about police racism in America is long overdue, and about the terror that officers get afflicted by when seeing a black man do quite literally anything, the issues I’ve mentioned need a separate, and deep look into themselves.

OP: "Can anyone defend "All Lives Matter"?"
NSG: "If black people don't want to get shot they should stop being criminals"

[Rojava Free State]

I don't think that Black Lives Matter would have as much opposition if it weren't for how "Black Lives Matter" in practice means "Black Lives Are the Only Lives That Matter, and Even Then Only If They're Shot By the Police".

This is absurd, and it's never meant that. The phrase "Black Lives Matter" is a response to police racism, given that black Americans are much more likely to be shot and killed by police. Any other slogans or issues, such as "All Lives Matter" or concerns about "black-only spaces," are simply reactionary distractions. The phrase "All Lives Matter" is disingenuous and simply exists to dilute the concerns about racism.

2.8 times more likely isn't alot more likely, and what we should be looking at is how many black men who aren't committing a crime are shot by police. The issue isn't police shootings. It's police shooting people who aren't a danger to anyone and didn't need to be shot, which is what happened to Philandro Castile.

[SangMar]

Exactly. If a member of one of America’s various black communities wants to cry about how little Johnny got shot dead by police after assaulting a shop clerk and attacking an officer, then it really needs to be asked of them, what are they doing to stop their communities’ young men from turning to crime, and feeling like they have a God-given right to attack people and break laws? Also, they need to be asked about intra-racial crime within their own communities and if they care about that too.

Because funnily enough, I think many Black-Americans only seem to care when it’s the evil whitey pulling the trigger, and not a member of their own groups.

While a discussion about police racism in America is long overdue, and about the terror that officers get afflicted by when seeing a black man do quite literally anything, the issues I’ve mentioned need a separate, and deep look into themselves.

Again, this is a distraction by attempting to shift the problem from the police onto the community. "Black people are being shot and killed by police and an alarmingly high rate?? Well...13/50!!1!1!"

If the only thing you can do is throw crime statistics at me to imply I’m a racist, then you’ve already lost the argument.

It’s true, black communities within America do need to look at why their younger people are killing each other at higher rates than any other group, and trying to throw junk at me won’t stick.

[Rojava Free State]

Exactly. If a member of one of America’s various black communities wants to cry about how little Johnny got shot dead by police after assaulting a shop clerk and attacking an officer, then it really needs to be asked of them, what are they doing to stop their communities’ young men from turning to crime, and feeling like they have a God-given right to attack people and break laws? Also, they need to be asked about intra-racial crime within their own communities and if they care about that too.

Because funnily enough, I think many Black-Americans only seem to care when it’s the evil whitey pulling the trigger, and not a member of their own groups.

While a discussion about police racism in America is long overdue, and about the terror that officers get afflicted by when seeing a black man do quite literally anything, the issues I’ve mentioned need a separate, and deep look into themselves.

OP: "Can anyone defend "All Lives Matter"?"
NSG: "If black people don't want to get shot they should stop being criminals"

All lives matter because all human lives hold value regardless of race. There, i defended the statement all lives matter.

[SangMar]

Exactly. If a member of one of America’s various black communities wants to cry about how little Johnny got shot dead by police after assaulting a shop clerk and attacking an officer, then it really needs to be asked of them, what are they doing to stop their communities’ young men from turning to crime, and feeling like they have a God-given right to attack people and break laws? Also, they need to be asked about intra-racial crime within their own communities and if they care about that too.

Because funnily enough, I think many Black-Americans only seem to care when it’s the evil whitey pulling the trigger, and not a member of their own groups.

While a discussion about police racism in America is long overdue, and about the terror that officers get afflicted by when seeing a black man do quite literally anything, the issues I’ve mentioned need a separate, and deep look into themselves.

OP: "Can anyone defend "All Lives Matter"?"
NSG: "If black people don't want to get shot they should stop being criminals"

I didn’t say that funnily enough, but if you want to put words in my mouth, go ahead.

[Rojava Free State]

Again, this is a distraction by attempting to shift the problem from the police onto the community. "Black people are being shot and killed by police and an alarmingly high rate?? Well...13/50!!1!1!"

If the only thing you can do is throw crime statistics at me to imply I’m a racist, then you’ve already lost the argument.

It’s true, black communities within America do need to look at why their younger people are killing each other at higher rates than any other group, and trying to throw junk at me won’t stick.

You know what was great about the 1990s? Black and latino people could stand against police brutality and crime at the same time and didn't need to hide the crime problem due to embarassment.

[LiberNovusAmericae]

It's an innocent phrase that people overreact to because some racists decided to use the term too.

[Rojava Free State]

I don't think that Black Lives Matter would have as much opposition if it weren't for how "Black Lives Matter" in practice means "Black Lives Are the Only Lives That Matter, and Even Then Only If They're Shot By the Police".

White people definitely are an invasive species to North America [1] and shouldn’t be allowed to bother the others...

[1] = https://www.reddit.com/r/Showerthoughts ... as_are_an/

The only people native to America are native Americans. Black people and latinos (at least the majority non native latinos) aren't indigenous either.

Besides, white people are not a species or even a real think tbh, so this whole statement reaks.

[SangMar]

If the only thing you can do is throw crime statistics at me to imply I’m a racist, then you’ve already lost the argument.

It’s true, black communities within America do need to look at why their younger people are killing each other at higher rates than any other group, and trying to throw junk at me won’t stick.

You know what was great about the 1990s? Black and latino people could stand against police brutality and crime at the same time and didn't need to hide the crime problem due to embarassment.

There’s huge issues with police brutality in America, but what a lot of commentators don’t seem to get is, that doesn’t excuse various communities lack of attempting to try and do something about it. And me responding to someone, and giving my thoughts on what they’ve said isn’t trying to hand-wave it away.

American policing needs a huge fucking overhaul, but even that won’t stop unjustified killings, black and Hispanic communities need to do some searching too: because, mainly white power-holders in the US do not know the ins and outs of those groups, they cannot help with something on a cultural level regarding cultures they’re not part of.

[Asian Tourists]

All lives do matter. Unfortunately for some people, some lives matter more than others.

[Roosevetania]

This is absurd, and it's never meant that. The phrase "Black Lives Matter" is a response to police racism, given that black Americans are much more likely to be shot and killed by police. Any other slogans or issues, such as "All Lives Matter" or concerns about "black-only spaces," are simply reactionary distractions. The phrase "All Lives Matter" is disingenuous and simply exists to dilute the concerns about racism.

2.8 times more likely isn't alot more likely, and what we should be looking at is how many black men who aren't committing a crime are shot by police. The issue isn't police shootings. It's police shooting people who aren't a danger to anyone and didn't need to be shot, which is what happened to Philandro Castile.

Sos the issue isn't police shootings, it's...some of them? That disproportionately impact black people?

Again, this is a distraction by attempting to shift the problem from the police onto the community. "Black people are being shot and killed by police and an alarmingly high rate?? Well...13/50!!1!1!"

If the only thing you can do is throw crime statistics at me to imply I’m a racist, then you’ve already lost the argument.

It’s true, black communities within America do need to look at why their younger people are killing each other at higher rates than any other group, and trying to throw junk at me won’t stick.

I mean, to distract from an actual movement for justice, you're saying that the black community needs to stop being criminals.

OP: "Can anyone defend "All Lives Matter"?"
NSG: "If black people don't want to get shot they should stop being criminals"

All lives matter because all human lives hold value regardless of race. There, i defended the statement all lives matter.

Nobody has disagreed with the fundamental idea that all lives matter, but with the racist way in which it is used.

[Rojava Free State]

All lives do matter. Unfortunately for some people, some lives matter more than others.

Reminds me of animal farm. All animals are equal but some are more equal than others.

[Agarntrop]

"Safe Spaces" for black people is just racial segregation being dressed up differently.

[SangMar]

2.8 times more likely isn't alot more likely, and what we should be looking at is how many black men who aren't committing a crime are shot by police. The issue isn't police shootings. It's police shooting people who aren't a danger to anyone and didn't need to be shot, which is what happened to Philandro Castile.

Sos the issue isn't police shootings, it's...some of them? That disproportionately impact black people?

If the only thing you can do is throw crime statistics at me to imply I’m a racist, then you’ve already lost the argument.

It’s true, black communities within America do need to look at why their younger people are killing each other at higher rates than any other group, and trying to throw junk at me won’t stick.

I mean, to distract from an actual movement for justice, you're saying that the black community needs to stop being criminals.

All lives matter because all human lives hold value regardless of race. There, i defended the statement all lives matter.

Nobody has disagreed with the fundamental idea that all lives matter, but with the racist way in which it is used.

I love strawmen.

[Rojava Free State]

2.8 times more likely isn't alot more likely, and what we should be looking at is how many black men who aren't committing a crime are shot by police. The issue isn't police shootings. It's police shooting people who aren't a danger to anyone and didn't need to be shot, which is what happened to Philandro Castile.

Sos the issue isn't police shootings, it's...some of them? That disproportionately impact black people?

On average there is a higher rate of violent crime in black America. As a result the police probably have alot more run ins with violent criminals in black neighborhoods than in white ones and as a result there are more shootings. You have to control for the crime. For example, lets say the police shoot a guy who has stolen a car and is firing at them as he tries to run them down. That isn't police misconduct. But if he's issued a speeding ticket when he wasnt speeding at all, says "why are you fucking with me," and the cop shoots him, then thats the issue.

A higher crime rate is gonna lead to more police involved shootings. What I wanna know is how many unarmed black men are being shot by police compared to unarmed white men? Not just how many black men were shot in total.

[LiberNovusAmericae]

"Safe Spaces" for black people is just racial segregation being dressed up differently.

Indeed. The far left position has somehow became the far right position. Horseshoe.

[Asian Tourists]

All lives do matter. Unfortunately for some people, some lives matter more than others.

Reminds me of animal farm. All animals are equal but some are more equal than others.

Bang on.

[Roosevetania]

Sos the issue isn't police shootings, it's...some of them? That disproportionately impact black people?

On average there is a higher rate of violent crime in black America. As a result the police probably have alot more run ins with violent criminals in black neighborhoods than in white ones and as a result there are more shootings. You have to control for the crime. For example, lets say the police shoot a guy who has stolen a car and is firing at them as he tries to run them down. That isn't police misconduct. But if he's issued a speeding ticket when he wasnt speeding at all, says "why are you fucking with me," and the cop shoots him, then thats the issue.

A higher crime rate is gonna lead to more police involved shootings. What I wanna know is how many unarmed black men are being shot by police compared to unarmed white men? Not just how many black men were shot in total.

According to the Washington Post, white people made up only 46% of unarmed shootings in 2019, despite making up 62% of the population. Black people, constituting 13% of the population, accounted for 22%. These numbers are similar to the overall police shooting statistics.

Sos the issue isn't police shootings, it's...some of them? That disproportionately impact black people?

I mean, to distract from an actual movement for justice, you're saying that the black community needs to stop being criminals.

Nobody has disagreed with the fundamental idea that all lives matter, but with the racist way in which it is used.

I love strawmen.

In what way did I misrepresent your argument? This was a discussion about violence against black people by the police and you somehow moved the conversation to black crime.

[Rojava Free State]

On average there is a higher rate of violent crime in black America. As a result the police probably have alot more run ins with violent criminals in black neighborhoods than in white ones and as a result there are more shootings. You have to control for the crime. For example, lets say the police shoot a guy who has stolen a car and is firing at them as he tries to run them down. That isn't police misconduct. But if he's issued a speeding ticket when he wasnt speeding at all, says "why are you fucking with me," and the cop shoots him, then thats the issue.

A higher crime rate is gonna lead to more police involved shootings. What I wanna know is how many unarmed black men are being shot by police compared to unarmed white men? Not just how many black men were shot in total.

According to the Washington Post, white people made up only 46% of unarmed shootings in 2019, despite making up 62% of the population. Black people, constituting 13% of the population, accounted for 22%. These numbers are similar to the overall police shooting statistics.

I love strawmen.

In what way did I misrepresent your argument? This was a discussion about violence against black people by the police and you somehow moved the conversation to black crime.

The police do shoot more unarmed black men than unarmed white men. The question is does this happen because these cops are just racists out looking to kill black people or is there something else behind it?

Here is my theory. My theory is that the reason police shoot more unarmed black men is because they know they can get away with it. They know that the family is too poor to afford a lawyer and society will back them and not care about it, so they do it. They may be racists or they may just be total assholes who just wanted to fuck with someone or who got their ego hurt and wanted to "teach someone a lesson." But under my theory, while police brutality disproprionately affects black people as a group, the correlation between being black and police shooting you isn't direct. Alot of the problem is socioeconomic. The police aren't gonna be as quick to shoot a kid of any race in a place like Hyde Park because it's an upper middle class neighborhood and a police shooting would likely bring the full wrath of the people there (who have actual political and economic power) down on them. But let's say the police go to a trailer park that is mostly white. I think that just like in a poor black neighborhood, the police really wouldn't have qualms about killing someone in a trailer park or in Philadelphia's fishtown neighborhood because they know the response will be awfully similar. Along the lines of "who cares? It's a shithole neighborhood and the guy they shot was probably a bum and a criminal thug anyhow." We gotta stop police brutality, but we shouldn't simplify it to "it's just cops shooting black people cause they're black."

[SangMar]

On average there is a higher rate of violent crime in black America. As a result the police probably have alot more run ins with violent criminals in black neighborhoods than in white ones and as a result there are more shootings. You have to control for the crime. For example, lets say the police shoot a guy who has stolen a car and is firing at them as he tries to run them down. That isn't police misconduct. But if he's issued a speeding ticket when he wasnt speeding at all, says "why are you fucking with me," and the cop shoots him, then thats the issue.

A higher crime rate is gonna lead to more police involved shootings. What I wanna know is how many unarmed black men are being shot by police compared to unarmed white men? Not just how many black men were shot in total.

According to the Washington Post, white people made up only 46% of unarmed shootings in 2019, despite making up 62% of the population. Black people, constituting 13% of the population, accounted for 22%. These numbers are similar to the overall police shooting statistics.

I love strawmen.

In what way did I misrepresent your argument? This was a discussion about violence against black people by the police and you somehow moved the conversation to black crime.

I was responding to a comment made by someone else, I didn’t just come into the thread and rub my hands together as I posted a stand-alone comment. But even then, my comment wasn’t saying that black people (as you didn’t say ‘some’ or ‘a few’ - you implied by leaving these out, that I meant all) were criminals. Hell, I even said that police should be looked into - and quite strongly as well, if you read my other comments too.

You misrepresented my argument by making it sound like I think all black people are criminals and entirely at fault for how many police officers treat them. Nuance is a thing, next time, read my comments and see that I mentioned two different things - about the black communities and how they’re not dealing with the criminality of some within them, and the police - because my comment about the police being fearful when black men do anything wasn’t a dogwhistle or a ‘gotcha’ it was a serious comment. They need to stop with the hostile mental image a black man represents in their minds.

[The Greater Ohio Valley]

It's an innocent phrase that people overreact to because some racists decided to use the term too.

Not so innocent when the phrase was coined by reactionaries as a response to the BLM movement, so there’s definitely a racist tinge to it.

"Safe Spaces" for black people is just racial segregation being dressed up differently.

Indeed. The far left position has somehow became the far right position. Horseshoe.

Not a position held by the totality of the far left.

[Rojava Free State]

It's an innocent phrase that people overreact to because some racists decided to use the term too.

Not so innocent when the phrase was coined by reactionaries as a response to the BLM movement, so there’s definitely a racist tinge to it.

Indeed. The far left position has somehow became the far right position. Horseshoe.

Not a position held by the totality of the far left.

I'm left wing and I don't believe in safe spaces. It's a position mainly held by American liberals, who are economically right wing but socially left wing. In other words, they don't wanna fix real issues. They just wanna keep the suffering going but with more diversity and acceptance of gay people.

[SangMar]

Not so innocent when the phrase was coined by reactionaries as a response to the BLM movement, so there’s definitely a racist tinge to it.


Not a position held by the totality of the far left.

I'm left wing and I don't believe in safe spaces. It's a position mainly held by American liberals, who are economically right wing but socially left wing. In other words, they don't wanna fix real issues. They just wanna keep the suffering going but with more diversity and acceptance of gay people.

It’s held by the Tumblr gang. Safe spaces (in most cases) are trash.