What is a good Christian?

[Joohan]

I dunno. That guy that went to an island filled with primitive natives and got filled with sharp pointy things while at the same time posing a health risk to said natives perhaps should have been stopped at a slightly earlier stage of his evangelism.

The guy who opened up his rather large congregation during this pandemic rather then holding services online should also probably have been stopped.

If only there was one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church which could control these things...

[FelrikTheDeleted]

Alright, I’m going to fuck off, bye, Godbless.

[Luminesa]

I don't suppose you can actually source that?

May I introduce you to google
https://www.catholicnews.com/services/e ... e-says.cfm

Holding a news conference Feb. 17 on his way back to Rome after a six-day visit to Cuba and Mexico, the pope was asked if the use of artificial contraceptives or abortion could be considered "a lesser evil" when the baby had a high risk of birth defects.
"Abortion is not a lesser evil -- it's a crime," Pope Francis said. It is the deliberate taking of an innocent human life. "It's an absolute evil."
"Don't confuse avoiding pregnancy with abortion," the pope said.

Personally I think the question was a trap intended to somehow get him to agree with abortion, but he answered as clearly as he could on the issue. A lesser evil is still unfortunately an evil.

[Luminesa]

I dunno. That guy that went to an island filled with primitive natives and got filled with sharp pointy things while at the same time posing a health risk to said natives perhaps should have been stopped at a slightly earlier stage of his evangelism.

The guy who opened up his rather large congregation during this pandemic rather then holding services online should also probably have been stopped.

Which person are you talking about?

[South Odreria 2]

May I introduce you to google
https://www.catholicnews.com/services/e ... e-says.cfm

Holding a news conference Feb. 17 on his way back to Rome after a six-day visit to Cuba and Mexico, the pope was asked if the use of artificial contraceptives or abortion could be considered "a lesser evil" when the baby had a high risk of birth defects.
"Abortion is not a lesser evil -- it's a crime," Pope Francis said. It is the deliberate taking of an innocent human life. "It's an absolute evil."
"Don't confuse avoiding pregnancy with abortion," the pope said.

Personally I think the question was a trap intended to somehow get him to agree with abortion, but he answered as clearly as he could on the issue. A lesser evil is still unfortunately an evil.

I'm not taking a position on the subject, but in point of fact he does not say contraception is a "lesser evil," but that it is "not an absolute evil/"

[Salus Maior]

I don't suppose you can actually source that?

Voila

Appears to be a pretty straightforward case. In very specific and dire situations the Pope can grant exceptions to certain rules in order to prevent a greater evil. One historical example of this happened in the wake of Paraguay's failed attempt of being Napoleonic France, where something like 80% of the men of the country died. In that case the Pope allowed polygamy in order to prevent Paraguay's population from utterly collapsing. That exception has since been lifted.

So this is an exception, but only for these specific people in their specific situation. At some point the exception will be lifted and it'll be status quo expectations.
It's not really an excuse for liberalization, so don't get your hopes up.

[Luminesa]

My question still hasn't been answered, so I'll ask again. Wouldn't this question be better asked in the CDT? I feel like it would at least be more "civil" there.

tbh this thread should be merged into the CDT for good measure.

Agreed.

[South Odreria 2]

The guy who opened up his rather large congregation during this pandemic rather then holding services online should also probably have been stopped.

If only there was one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church which could control these things...

Is the status of the Pope as the successor to the Apostle Peter the exclusive sense of the word "apostolic" in the Catholic sense?

[Luminesa]

While a tangent better suited for the abortion thread perhaps - why does this order exist ? What is the scriptural justification; or is a more a matter of "we are Catholics, we say so" ?

There are also plenty of people who have some disagreement with some part of the Catholic Church. I mean a great many Catholics support the use of contraceptives.

This comes a fair bit from there not being good catechesis on the issue of contraceptives in the last 50 or so years.

[Luminesa]

They can disagree all they want, sure. They're not going to be in good standing, though.

I mean, you can ignore the fact that you're automatically excommunicated. That doesn't make you not-excommunicated.

Would a kind, merciful, and benevolent God really be as judgmental and selective as your seemingly strict expectations are?

It seems to be that a being who is as intelligent, is as loving, is as great as the supposed creator of the universe might be a little more flexible, particularly having created humans with free will.

Good parents place rules for their children, but those rules do not indicate a lack of love.

[Joohan]

If only there was one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church which could control these things...

Is the status of the Pope as the successor to the Apostle Peter the exclusive sense of the word "apostolic" in the Catholic sense?

No, and I'm not Roman Catholic ( Orthodox Catholic ). All members of the clergy are inheritors of the apostolic succession, as all are God's apostles.

[Andechs-Sisebut]

This is whole lot of nothing, with so many words you say exactly the same things without addressing what I said. In the final case you are just obtuse and jumping at an error in my writing.

Oh I don't know... more than one group I can think of that believes that "lying for the Lord" is A-OK.

Which is not mine, so how does that apply to me? It doesn’t. Lying is condemned as a sin.

And I was responding to what you said. You were the one who said that killing someone considered evil by God cannot be an evil act, and doesn't interfere with one being a Good Christian. Which, as I pointed out is a dangerously nebulous concept as it removes the concept from "witch" (a wide enough concept in history) to anyone "evil" under the sun. In effect, it excuses a bad act (murder) by saying "its for God, so meh, it's fine".

Thou shalt not murder, is the commandment. A legal authority, which is given authority to dispense justice on the wicked and evil, has every right to use capital punishment. No one said anything about vigilantism. And a just act is not murder.

It also stands in opposition to James 4:12, incidentally: "There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor?"

You mean the same ‘Lawgiver and Judge’ that said, ‘Thou shalt not suffer the witch to live.’? So, as St. Thomas Aquinas points out, lawful authorities are given license to dispense justice. This is not talking about magistrates punishing the wicked nor Christians using critical discernment to determine what is profane, and thus avoiding sin. ‘...who are you to judge your neighbour?’ is about Christians using detraction and calumny to malign each other (James 4:11) and slander, an illusion to Leviticus 19:16, ‘Thou shalt not be a detractor nor a whisperer among the people. Thou shalt not stand against the blood of thy neighbour. I am the Lord.’

Yet so many people on Earth today seem content with being God's judge and jury, and some would wish to be executioner too: deciding good and evil on their own perception.

This is why we have the Church, which you reject, because you don’t know what you’re talking about.

[Jedi Council]

Would a kind, merciful, and benevolent God really be as judgmental and selective as your seemingly strict expectations are?

It seems to be that a being who is as intelligent, is as loving, is as great as the supposed creator of the universe might be a little more flexible, particularly having created humans with free will.

Good parents place rules for their children, but those rules do not indicate a lack of love.

I just tend to find the argument odd. He created us with free will, but expects us to follow strict guidelines?

Taking myself as an example, if he created me with free will, and gave me reason, and all the powers of the human mind, it would make little sense to punish me for exercising my free will and my reason to come to a conclusion, even one he does not like. If he wanted followers who do not question his existence he would not have given us free will in the first place, since all the tools for breaking his own rules are spawned from there.

[South Odreria 2]

^^The Catholic Church is against capital punishment, so not sure how you can advocate for it while condemning others for rejecting the church.

[South Odreria 2]

Good parents place rules for their children, but those rules do not indicate a lack of love.

I just tend to find the argument odd. He created us with free will, but expects us to follow strict guidelines?

Taking myself as an example, if he created me with free will, and gave me reason, and all the powers of the human mind, it would make little sense to punish me for exercising my free will and my reason to come to a conclusion, even one he does not like. If he wanted followers who do not question his existence he would not have given us free will in the first place, since all the tools for breaking his own rules are spawned from there.

Free will or agency allows humans to commit murder, but I think you agree that murder is bad. Then why is anything else made right because it is possible to do it?

[Luminesa]

No, she doesn’t. And she has been taken to task for it by most Catholics on NS.

Kat's a better Christian than me. I doubt Kat has ever wavered from worshiping the Lord, and if she has, she certainly never acts like it. What you need to be a true Christian is to treat others with respect, obey the Trinity and the Father's commandments, and just generally not be a dick. You're failing at two of those, and just generally being a hypocrite. Kat's doing all three. Shush.

All Christians, devout or not, fall short of God’s perfection, and often enough. This is a dangerous thing to say about anyone. We all have strayed from worshipping God as we should. And we all have acted at times as though we have strayed from worshipping the Lord. I won’t speak on Kat herself, but Kat does believe some things which are considered heterodox in the Church. She is not the only one, but Catholics should always remember the Catechism and keep it to heart. That is one way to improve as a Catholic.

The other is going to Mass on Sunday and to fervently pray for Jesus to come to you in Holy Communion. I myself fall short in my prayer life and in my own evangelism at times, so I am not as holy as I could be. That being said, the Litany of Humility includes a line which says we should always pray for others to be holier than ourselves, as long as we become as holy as God intends. We must keep to the truth of the Faith in order to truly love it.

As for non-Catholics, it’s hard for me to think outside of the sacramental life of the Church, but prayer and seeking always after the truth of the Gospel is good for any Christian. Remember, all of us have fallen short, but we can always make the choice to stand for the Gospel. It is a conscious decision, and nobody can make you do it. You have to do it yourself.

[The Alma Mater]

I just tend to find the argument odd. He created us with free will, but expects us to follow strict guidelines?

Taking myself as an example, if he created me with free will, and gave me reason, and all the powers of the human mind, it would make little sense to punish me for exercising my free will and my reason to come to a conclusion, even one he does not like. If he wanted followers who do not question his existence he would not have given us free will in the first place, since all the tools for breaking his own rules are spawned from there.

Free will or agency allows humans to commit murder, but I think you agree that murder is bad. Then why is anything else made right because it is possible to do it?

The why question is exactly the right one to ask. It is the diference between "murder is bad because I say so" and "murder is bad because ... (long list of reasons)".

[Andechs-Sisebut]

^^The Catholic Church is against capital punishment, so not sure how you can advocate for it while condemning others for rejecting the church.

The Catholic Church doesn’t condemn capital punishment. If your referring to Pope Francis’ addition to the catechism, that’s his prudential decision. It is inadmissible to use the death penalty now that developed nations are focused on reforming criminals and have the facilities to do so. The Pope cannot say that capital punishment is morally wrong and evil.

[Luminesa]

Good parents place rules for their children, but those rules do not indicate a lack of love.

I just tend to find the argument odd. He created us with free will, but expects us to follow strict guidelines?

Taking myself as an example, if he created me with free will, and gave me reason, and all the powers of the human mind, it would make little sense to punish me for exercising my free will and my reason to come to a conclusion, even one he does not like. If he wanted followers who do not question his existence he would not have given us free will in the first place, since all the tools for breaking his own rules are spawned from there.

That’s what good parents do. They push their children to be good people, even if sometimes it feels counterintuitive. There was absolutely a lesson of discipline in the story of The Prodigal Son. The son broke his father’s heart, and his punishment was missing many years of love and comfort in his home. Yet his reward for returning home was a massive party, because the father saw he had been punished enough, and saw that the son truly had learned his lesson.

[Joohan]

Good parents place rules for their children, but those rules do not indicate a lack of love.

I just tend to find the argument odd. He created us with free will, but expects us to follow strict guidelines?

Taking myself as an example, if he created me with free will, and gave me reason, and all the powers of the human mind, it would make little sense to punish me for exercising my free will and my reason to come to a conclusion, even one he does not like. If he wanted followers who do not question his existence he would not have given us free will in the first place, since all the tools for breaking his own rules are spawned from there.

He desires love. True love cannot be forced but must be come upon freely. Thus, God gave us free will, so that we may freely come to love him

Hell isnt a place God sends you to be punished, rather, it is a reflection of how we lived on Earth. Hell is a place without the love of God that is why it's so miserable. You are free to choose a life without God, your afterlife shall reflect that decision.

[The Alma Mater]

I just tend to find the argument odd. He created us with free will, but expects us to follow strict guidelines?

Taking myself as an example, if he created me with free will, and gave me reason, and all the powers of the human mind, it would make little sense to punish me for exercising my free will and my reason to come to a conclusion, even one he does not like. If he wanted followers who do not question his existence he would not have given us free will in the first place, since all the tools for breaking his own rules are spawned from there.

That’s what good parents do. They push their children to be good people, even if sometimes it feels counterintuitive.

No, that is what shitty abusive parents do. Good parents teach their children the difference between good an bad and do not wait for them to steal a magic fruit.

[Luminesa]

^^The Catholic Church is against capital punishment, so not sure how you can advocate for it while condemning others for rejecting the church.

The Catholic Church doesn’t condemn capital punishment. If your referring to Pope Francis’ addition to the catechism, that’s his prudential decision. It is inadmissible to use the death penalty now that developed nations are focused on reforming criminals. The Pope cannot say that capital punishment is morally wrong and evil.

He already has.

https://press.vatican.va/content/salast ... 0802a.html

Consequently, the Church teaches, in the light of the Gospel, that “the death penalty is inadmissible because it is an attack on the inviolability and dignity of the person”,[1] and she works with determination for its abolition worldwide.

St. John Paul II also held similar beliefs on the death penalty.

[Jedi Council]

I just tend to find the argument odd. He created us with free will, but expects us to follow strict guidelines?

Taking myself as an example, if he created me with free will, and gave me reason, and all the powers of the human mind, it would make little sense to punish me for exercising my free will and my reason to come to a conclusion, even one he does not like. If he wanted followers who do not question his existence he would not have given us free will in the first place, since all the tools for breaking his own rules are spawned from there.

Free will or agency allows humans to commit murder, but I think you agree that murder is bad. Then why is anything else made right because it is possible to do it?

Just because you can do it does not make it right. My objection was to less obvious, and more arbitrary concerns that most Faith's have, such as the objection to contraception or the existence of disbelief.

But again, morality is man made so as to fit man. Presumably, God had the ability to make us follow his tenants, or at least place within our world/oneself the key to finding faith, and thus the desire to follow such tenants.

I have no desire to follow the laws or tenants of any church or religion, so by all accounts, in almost every faith, I will not ascend to any form of Heaven of afterlife. I'm fine with that given my belief that it is a fictional place. But why would God give us the tools that allow us to say, disregard his existence, and then punish us for using them?

If I were to stand face to face with a divine being, and they said "You did not believe, you will be punished," or something along those lines, I will retort he should have given me more evidence. Or he should have not given me the tools by which I doubted him in the first place.

[Jedi Council]

I just tend to find the argument odd. He created us with free will, but expects us to follow strict guidelines?

Taking myself as an example, if he created me with free will, and gave me reason, and all the powers of the human mind, it would make little sense to punish me for exercising my free will and my reason to come to a conclusion, even one he does not like. If he wanted followers who do not question his existence he would not have given us free will in the first place, since all the tools for breaking his own rules are spawned from there.

He desires love. True love cannot be forced but must be come upon freely. Thus, God gave us free will, so that we may freely come to love him

Hell isnt a place God sends you to be punished, rather, it is a reflection of how we lived on Earth. Hell is a place without the love of God that is why it's so miserable. You are free to choose a life without God, your afterlife shall reflect that decision.

If I am living without Gods love now, why should I fear it after death? I have lived a fairly decent, comfortable, and generally moral life so far, so I would imagine my supposed space in Hell, if it is truly a reflection of this, wouldn't be so bad.

And how manipulative.
"Here, go make your own choices, so long as they are the right ones!"

[Luminesa]

That’s what good parents do. They push their children to be good people, even if sometimes it feels counterintuitive.

No, that is what shitty abusive parents do.

I guess “push” was the wrong word. Encourage? A good parent is also understanding of their child and their struggles, and thus gives them love and comfort when they need it. But a good parent always wants their child to be better than they were, and not in the sense of “living through their kids”, as is what sometimes happens.