Georgist Discussion Thread - We Need a Land Value Tax Now

[Betelgeuse Alliance]

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The Georgist/Geoist Discussion Thread

19th century American economist and social philosopher Henry George, known for shaping
Georgism and for his popular 1879 book 'Progress and Poverty: An Inquiry into the Cause of
Industrial Depressions and of Increase of Want with Increase of Wealth: The Remedy'

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So, as a Geolibertarian, I find it kind of unfortunate that there don't seem to be any independent threads where people can discuss and/or debate Georgism/Geoism and its ideas, and because not many people are familiar with it at all either, I figured I'll make one.

Here, anyone can join in to casually discuss or debate Georgism/Geoism and share articles and/or other sources that are either directly or indirectly relevant to the topic to talk about. I hope Georgism and its fusion ideologies (e.g. Geolibertarianism) can gain more of a presence on this site, and I hope to spread the word. It also finally gives fellow Georgists a place on NS to meet up and unite.

If you aren't familiar with Georgism/Geoism, here are some wikipedia links to get you started:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_George
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progress_and_Poverty

There's PDF's of Progress and Poverty online, but I'm not certain if they're as good and accurate as George's actual book itself (which I haven't read yet, but maybe would like to consider).

[Greed and Death]

Just avoid talking about the land lords game.

[Rojava Free State]

So Georgists believe that you have a right to certain private property, but land should be publicly owned?

[Betelgeuse Alliance]

So Georgists believe that you have a right to certain private property, but land should be publicly owned?

No. This is one of the most frequent misconceptions which lead to people thinking it's socialism (even though it's not). Georgists believe that it is the economic value derived from land that should be shared, not necessarily the land itself. We believe that land should still be left to private hands, and that you should still be able to do with it as you please, as long as you pay the LVT for it. The LVT is the most efficient tax because it doesn't generate any deadweight loss unlike current unfair taxes on hard-earned wealth (such as income tax, sales tax, property tax, etc.)

The reason why the LVT doesn't generate any deadweight loss is because the supply of land is always fixed (no person made the land, it's a natural resource supplied by the Earth).

[The Blaatschapen]

Just avoid talking about the land lords game.

If you do:
Go directly to Jail
Do not pass GO, do not collect $200

[The Liberated Territories]

This is just statism with extra steps

[Rojava Free State]

So Georgists believe that you have a right to certain private property, but land should be publicly owned?

No. This is one of the most frequent misconceptions which lead to people thinking it's socialism (even though it's not). Georgists believe that it is the economic value derived from land that should be shared, not necessarily the land itself. We believe that land should still be left to private hands, and that you should still be able to do with it as you please, as long as you pay the LVT for it. The LVT is the most efficient tax because it doesn't generate any deadweight loss unlike current unfair taxes on hard-earned wealth (such as income tax, sales tax, property tax, etc.)

The reason why the LVT doesn't generate any deadweight loss is because the supply of land is always fixed (no person made the land, it's a natural resource supplied by the Earth).

So you believe in redistributing the wealth that is derived from usage of the land?

[Betelgeuse Alliance]

This is just statism with extra steps

Well you see, Georgism can be accepted throughout a wide range of ideologies that are in favor of capitalism. In general, I personally support free-market capitalism with minimal regulations and a very limited government that respects the inherent rights, to life, liberty and property, the right to bear arms, and stays out of individual's lives as much as possible, though all there is to it is the efficient LVT for landowners, from which I believe the revenue should be divided over the population in the form of a UBI. I'm more like a minarchist, not a full-on statist.

And just in case you think that Georgism means that land is publicly owned, you would be incorrect. It is the economic value of land that is taxed, but the land itself still remains in private hands and landowners still can do with their plot of land as they please without fear from government intervention, it just requires them to pay the LVT for their land (which then allows to reduce the more inefficient taxes like income and sales taxes for example).

EDIT: Just wanted to say that even Milton Friedman referred to the LVT as 'the least bad tax'.

[Diopolis]

Can someone explain the difference between an LVT and a property tax?

[Aumeltopia]

Can someone explain the difference between an LVT and a property tax?

LVT taxes only the land -- not any improvements made upon it. Property tax includes anything one builds or improves on as well.

I've liked the idea of a LVT and Georgism for a while, but I can't say I know much about it.

[Senkaku]

a friend of mine says he's a georgist but he's never explained further so I've always assumed he just says it to be funny and bolster his image as a Very Online person who knows obscure things

[The Federal Government of Iowa]

I actually kinda like this idea, although the only thing I know about this is what I've read in the thread.
If other taxes that are human-dependant (like how much you make or spend) are reduced, I think I could see this being a thing.

[The Islands of Versilia]

Georgiam has intrigued me for some time and I do find some of its ideas appealing. I’ve admittedly read very little on the subject, but from what I’ve heard, it seems somewhat decent. I personally lean towards an ideology I call “national statism”, a combination of socialism and nationalism with a more welfare and social market - a compromise between capitalism and protecting the vulnerable members of society.

Of course the kind of Georgism I envision would lean more towards the socialistic kind, rather than minarchist.

Are there any good videos that go over Georgism understandable enough for the layman? And what reading materials could I look into besides Henry George’s own works?

[Diopolis]

Can someone explain the difference between an LVT and a property tax?

LVT taxes only the land -- not any improvements made upon it. Property tax includes anything one builds or improves on as well.

I've liked the idea of a LVT and Georgism for a while, but I can't say I know much about it.

So an LVT would have to be either unrealistically high, or fund a government with an unrealistically small set of expenses.

[Aclion]

So Georgists believe that you have a right to certain private property, but land should be publicly owned?

No. This is one of the most frequent misconceptions which lead to people thinking it's socialism (even though it's not). Georgists believe that it is the economic value derived from land that should be shared, not necessarily the land itself. We believe that land should still be left to private hands, and that you should still be able to do with it as you please, as long as you pay the LVT for it. The LVT is the most efficient tax because it doesn't generate any deadweight loss unlike current unfair taxes on hard-earned wealth (such as income tax, sales tax, property tax, etc.)

The reason why the LVT doesn't generate any deadweight loss is because the supply of land is always fixed (no person made the land, it's a natural resource supplied by the Earth).

I feel like I'm misunderstanding this, because it sounds like it would just be an incentive to hold land but not generate any economic value from it.

[Betelgeuse Alliance]

No. This is one of the most frequent misconceptions which lead to people thinking it's socialism (even though it's not). Georgists believe that it is the economic value derived from land that should be shared, not necessarily the land itself. We believe that land should still be left to private hands, and that you should still be able to do with it as you please, as long as you pay the LVT for it. The LVT is the most efficient tax because it doesn't generate any deadweight loss unlike current unfair taxes on hard-earned wealth (such as income tax, sales tax, property tax, etc.)

The reason why the LVT doesn't generate any deadweight loss is because the supply of land is always fixed (no person made the land, it's a natural resource supplied by the Earth).

I feel like I'm misunderstanding this, because it sounds like it would just be an incentive to hold land but not generate any economic value from it.

The way it works is that taxing land value actually incentivizes rather than disincentivizes efficient land use, because the tax is what makes leaving land vacant impractical (because why would anybody want to pay tax for land they're not going to profit from anyway? Taxing the land pretty much ensures that the owner will develop the land so that said owner can profit from the improvements that he/she builds on it, so that said owner can actually pay the LVT for it. Either that, or the owner has a job that earns him/her enough to pay the LVT for the land).

And remember: if you rent a home, you're not owning any land, thus you only pay rent for the home, not for the land the home is located on (since said land belongs to the person who rents out the homes, which is the person that ultimately pays the LVT for it).

[Crylante]

I'm not sure I'd necessarily call myself a Georgist per se, but I've always found it an intriguing and interesting idea and I think its ideas could be interestingly adopted alongside market socialist policies into something I'd be fairly happy with.

[Betelgeuse Alliance]

LVT taxes only the land -- not any improvements made upon it. Property tax includes anything one builds or improves on as well.

I've liked the idea of a LVT and Georgism for a while, but I can't say I know much about it.

So an LVT would have to be either unrealistically high, or fund a government with an unrealistically small set of expenses.

While it may be true true that replacing all other taxes with an LVT may not raise enough revenue (this is even mentioned in the Land Value Tax wikipedia link I shared in the top post), it still allows to decrease other more inefficient taxes significantly, and would still deliver the effects the tax is meant to deliver (efficient land usage, and the fact that it's a source of revenue that doesn't create economic inefficiency).

Besides, rural land for example is also worth less than the land in large cities. This makes it so that if the same LVT rate is applied to all land owners, the owner in the rural area effectively pays less in LVT for the same-sized plot of land than the landowner in the larger city does, so the amount of LVT paid under the same rate varies significantly depending on where the land is located.

[Green October Z]

Another weird, obscure ideology.

[Betelgeuse Alliance]

Another weird, obscure ideology.

If you don't mind explaining, in what way is Georgism 'weird and obscure' to you? Is there anything you would like to see cleared up?

[Vetalia]

And remember: if you rent a home, you're not owning any land, thus you only pay rent for the home, not for the land the home is located on (since said land belongs to the person who rents out the homes, which is the person that ultimately pays the LVT for it).

This is the piece that doesn't make sense to me; wouldn't the landowner pass on the cost of the tax via an increase in rent on the land? It seems like it would actually incentivize concentrating land ownership and earning profits via renting it out.

[Diopolis]

And remember: if you rent a home, you're not owning any land, thus you only pay rent for the home, not for the land the home is located on (since said land belongs to the person who rents out the homes, which is the person that ultimately pays the LVT for it).

This is the piece that doesn't make sense to me; wouldn't the landowner pass on the cost of the tax via an increase in rent on the land? It seems like it would actually incentivize concentrating land ownership and earning profits via renting it out.

Maybe, maybe not.
Current US property taxes are paid based on the improved value of the land, and are passed on to the tenants. Issues with the formula aside, of course.
A tax on the unimproved value of the land would tend to be passed on just the same, but at a far lower rate. So most people would come out ahead, but the biggest beneficiaries would be people living in trailer parks(because they own the trailers, but not the land- or at least most of them do).

[Betelgeuse Alliance]

And remember: if you rent a home, you're not owning any land, thus you only pay rent for the home, not for the land the home is located on (since said land belongs to the person who rents out the homes, which is the person that ultimately pays the LVT for it).

This is the piece that doesn't make sense to me; wouldn't the landowner pass on the cost of the tax via an increase in rent on the land? It seems like it would actually incentivize concentrating land ownership and earning profits via renting it out.

Well, I find that the answers on this subreddit page provide some interesting sides on this topic:
https://www.reddit.com/r/georgism/comme ... t_not_lvt/

[Munkcestrian RepubIic]

a friend of mine says he's a georgist but he's never explained further so I've always assumed he just says it to be funny and bolster his image as a Very Online person who knows obscure things

based

[Betelgeuse Alliance]

No. This is one of the most frequent misconceptions which lead to people thinking it's socialism (even though it's not). Georgists believe that it is the economic value derived from land that should be shared, not necessarily the land itself. We believe that land should still be left to private hands, and that you should still be able to do with it as you please, as long as you pay the LVT for it. The LVT is the most efficient tax because it doesn't generate any deadweight loss unlike current unfair taxes on hard-earned wealth (such as income tax, sales tax, property tax, etc.)

The reason why the LVT doesn't generate any deadweight loss is because the supply of land is always fixed (no person made the land, it's a natural resource supplied by the Earth).

So you believe in redistributing the wealth that is derived from usage of the land?

Only from the occupied land itself, and not from what is ON said land (since everything that's produced by people that's present on that land is rightfully the owner's property).