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I've been banned from walking at my college graduation.

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Greed and Death
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Postby Greed and Death » Fri Apr 30, 2010 8:11 am

Flameswroth wrote:
greed and death wrote:
Flameswroth wrote:
IL Ruffino wrote:What can I do to fight this?

Hmmm, not sure. Others in this thread have suggested that you take legal action, but that could make this whole mess far more trouble than it's worth. Sure, it's a momentous occasion, but really all it is is a few hours of listening to old people and walking around. You'll miss out on a few photos, but usually you don't get very good ones during the proceedings at all. If it were me, I'd show up in my cap and gown (assuming you already have them), and take pictures as normal. Then just don't walk, and take more pictures after.

20 years down the road the actual walking won't mean anything, but the pictures commemorating your graduation will.

Put the family shows up and gives money to you after walking.

Wait, what?! I was supposed to get money? Son of a bitch, my grandparents ripped me off! >:(

lol, jk. But I didn't get any money after walking, on either day (the overall thing and my individual college did their ceremonies separately). Guess it just depends.

You did get ripped off I got over 1,000 dollars.
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Lackadaisical2
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Postby Lackadaisical2 » Fri Apr 30, 2010 8:14 am

Karsol wrote:
Zykorinov wrote:
Post-Unity Terra wrote:
Zykorinov wrote:
IL Ruffino wrote:It's not like I called him a nigger or told anyone to go pick cotton

If only you would have... it would have made for a much better story.

But, one thing that pisses me off is that if some black college kid took a picture of a saltine cracker at a local restaurant and wrote a note on the back referencing it to a white mayor... no one would say anything about it... weird, no?


I for one don't understand why that would be offensive.

My point exactly. People just need to loosen up an have some fun. Yeah, maybe a gorilla is a bit more offensive to a cracker, but they're still the same (in essence). There's too much of this "political correctness" and "racial equality" bullshit in the world nowadays. People take things way too seriously.


Blacks don't have a history of putting forth the veiw of racial supierorty

Lawl, only if you ignore history.
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Dygrian Wecro
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Postby Dygrian Wecro » Fri Apr 30, 2010 8:29 am

The very fact that internet pictures that compare GW Bush to monkeys are widely considered funny, and that pictures comparing Michelle Obama to monkeys are widely considered racist, shows how racist the society is at large.

Bush is compared to a monkey: Oh it must because his policies are so stupid, haha.

Obama is compared to a monkey: Oh that is so racist it must compare her physical appearance and black peoples´ intelligence at large to monkeys.

Fail. What if we just started ignoring racists and stopped being so worried/offended by what people say.
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Dark Side Messiahs
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Postby Dark Side Messiahs » Fri Apr 30, 2010 8:32 am

Dygrian Wecro wrote:The very fact that internet pictures that compare GW Bush to monkeys are widely considered funny, and that pictures comparing Michelle Obama to monkeys are widely considered racist, shows how racist the society is at large.

Bush is compared to a monkey: Oh it must because his policies are so stupid, haha.

Obama is compared to a monkey: Oh that is so racist it must compare her physical appearance and black peoples´ intelligence at large to monkeys.

Fail. What if we just started ignoring racists and stopped being so worried/offended by what people say.


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Scarsaw
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Postby Scarsaw » Fri Apr 30, 2010 8:45 am

Christmahanikwanzikah wrote:
Scarsaw wrote:What were you trying to do with this art? I mean, if you're intention was to display how barbaric or primitive his ideas while as major has been...then you should have explained that....but if you did this because you thought it was funny or that they looked similar, racist or not, that wasn't cool. Not being able to walk at your college grad is harsh, but I can't quite sympathize with you if there was no reason or point to do this little art of yours.


Does art really need to have a point?


Controversial art should...or else you're pretty stupid for putting yourself in trouble for fun.
Last edited by Scarsaw on Fri Apr 30, 2010 8:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Odhinnia
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Postby Odhinnia » Fri Apr 30, 2010 9:09 am

Sane Outcasts wrote:
Karsol wrote:
Sane Outcasts wrote:
Odhinnia wrote:
Sane Outcasts wrote:No history of systematically enslaving whites for economic benefit and creating a mythology of inferiority to justify said slavery that follows whites to this day, then.


And that changes anything how? They were Black Power Nationalists, which is my point. Besides... In most cases Slaves were bought from Tribes that had taken "POWs" in Tribal Wars. So really.... The Africans enslaved their African Brothers. Your point is MOOT. Your bringing up Slavery is using "The Race Card" and that has no sway over me.


Sure, there are Black power nationalists. But they've never had the same power or caused the same kind of harm as white power racists, which was my point. Doesn't matter that some Africans sold others, white people still bought them, enslaved them, viewed them as inferior, and perpetuated those views for a century after slavery was abolished. Slavery and institutionalized discrimination against black people isn't a "race card", it's history. History, incidentally, that includes comparisons of black people to primates.

Technically we are primates, but it was more of an insult to compare another man to something that wasn't deemed intelligent.

It was a pseudo-scientific justification for saying Africans had less intelligence and self-control than whites, that they were closer to animal than human. Of course, this rested on very misunderstood science that two hundred years of honest intellectual effort have proved false, but the comparison is still a very sore issue.


I know I'm a bit late, but I still fail to see where Slavery fits into you attempting to discredit my point. The point was that there have been Black Power Nationalists with a pretty good support base. Slavery has nothing to do with it. FURTHERMORE There have been tons of White slaves in the past, Most likely more than there have been African ones. Does the name Spartacus ring a bell? He was Thracian, a Balkan People, Who pretty much are classified as Caucasian. Or what about the other thousands of German/Celtic/Gothic/Gallic tribes-people that were enslaved. The Vikings excelled at slave trade, What color/ethnicity do you think their slaves were? The Irish were treated Treated as Inferior by the English, being abused, beaten, and enslaved.... Same goes for the Scots. Again, your point of Slavery in reference to Africans is an attempt at using "The Race Card", A most unsuccessful one at that.
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Lackadaisical2
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Postby Lackadaisical2 » Fri Apr 30, 2010 9:13 am

Scarsaw wrote:
Christmahanikwanzikah wrote:
Scarsaw wrote:What were you trying to do with this art? I mean, if you're intention was to display how barbaric or primitive his ideas while as major has been...then you should have explained that....but if you did this because you thought it was funny or that they looked similar, racist or not, that wasn't cool. Not being able to walk at your college grad is harsh, but I can't quite sympathize with you if there was no reason or point to do this little art of yours.


Does art really need to have a point?


Controversial art should...or else you're pretty stupid for putting yourself in trouble for fun.

There you go- good a reason as any.
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Postby Dyakovo » Fri Apr 30, 2010 9:15 am

Willenburg wrote:
IL Ruffino wrote:So my school has a competition for it's art students at the end of every year, so I entered a photo of a gorilla that I took at the Philadelphia zoo into the portrait catagory since it wasn't very relevant to any of the others.

As a joke, I attached a model release to the back of my print that was signed "Michael Nutter" (the mayor of Philadelphia, who happens to be black). Well, the person who is in charge of this competition thought she should report this to the president of the school (who happens to be black) because of it's "racist" tone. He was pissed. I had to meet with him today to talk about the "situation" and he went off on this rant about how I should "show respect blah blah blah bigoted attack blah blah MLK blah blah.."

Needless to say, I didn't take this seriously and said ".. but I voted for Obama"

He was furious after that and decided to have all of my entries removed from the competiton and told me that I wouldn't be allowed to walk with my fellow students in two weeks.

It's not like I called him a nigger or told anyone to go pick cotton, so I don't understand how what I did can be seen as offensive in any way.

What can I do to fight this? I don't deserve this discrimination.


This is TOTAL B.S.

Give this story to FOX News. And any local newspapers. You still won't get to walk probably, but you can take the opportunity to call attention to some very REAL racism in the USA.

Why would it be in his best interest to call attention to his acting in a racist manner?
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Postby Dyakovo » Fri Apr 30, 2010 9:17 am

Dygrian Wecro wrote:The very fact that internet pictures that compare GW Bush to monkeys are widely considered funny.

Have you ever actually looked at said pictures?
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Postby Flameswroth » Fri Apr 30, 2010 9:19 am

Dyakovo wrote:Why would it be in his best interest to call attention to his acting in a racist manner?

I agree, even if I don't share the negative feelings regarding racism. It doesn't avail him anything to make a big stank about this. Otherwise he'll end up being allowed to walk at his 'graduation', but that 'graduation' will consist of a half dozen liberal arts majors while another, alternate 'graduation' is held across town for everyone else.

Kudos to those who recognize the reference. And I mean real Kudos - those granola bars from like ten years ago. I have a stash in my basement.

Dyakovo wrote:Have you ever actually looked at said pictures?

I dunno about him, but I have. They're pretty dang funny. I'm not sure what your point in asking this is, though. Even if he has seen them, and they are well and truly funny, that doesn't disprove the double standard that's implied.
Last edited by Flameswroth on Fri Apr 30, 2010 9:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Greed and Death
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Postby Greed and Death » Fri Apr 30, 2010 9:19 am

Dyakovo wrote:
Willenburg wrote:
IL Ruffino wrote:So my school has a competition for it's art students at the end of every year, so I entered a photo of a gorilla that I took at the Philadelphia zoo into the portrait catagory since it wasn't very relevant to any of the others.

As a joke, I attached a model release to the back of my print that was signed "Michael Nutter" (the mayor of Philadelphia, who happens to be black). Well, the person who is in charge of this competition thought she should report this to the president of the school (who happens to be black) because of it's "racist" tone. He was pissed. I had to meet with him today to talk about the "situation" and he went off on this rant about how I should "show respect blah blah blah bigoted attack blah blah MLK blah blah.."

Needless to say, I didn't take this seriously and said ".. but I voted for Obama"

He was furious after that and decided to have all of my entries removed from the competiton and told me that I wouldn't be allowed to walk with my fellow students in two weeks.

It's not like I called him a nigger or told anyone to go pick cotton, so I don't understand how what I did can be seen as offensive in any way.

What can I do to fight this? I don't deserve this discrimination.


This is TOTAL B.S.

Give this story to FOX News. And any local newspapers. You still won't get to walk probably, but you can take the opportunity to call attention to some very REAL racism in the USA.

Why would it be in his best interest to call attention to his acting in a racist manner?

It would embarrass the school, lower its rankings, and make alumni less likely to donate money.
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Postby MisanthropicPopulism » Fri Apr 30, 2010 9:29 am

Flameswroth wrote:I dunno about him, but I have. They're pretty dang funny. I'm not sure what your point in asking this is, though. Even if he has seen them, and they are well and truly funny, that doesn't disprove the double standard that's implied.

Does Mayor Nutter look like a gorilla.
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Postby Sacrifist » Fri Apr 30, 2010 9:32 am

Dygrian Wecro wrote:The very fact that internet pictures that compare GW Bush to monkeys are widely considered funny, and that pictures comparing Michelle Obama to monkeys are widely considered racist, shows how racist the society is at large.

Bush is compared to a monkey: Oh it must because his policies are so stupid, haha.

Obama is compared to a monkey: Oh that is so racist it must compare her physical appearance and black peoples´ intelligence at large to monkeys.

Fail. What if we just started ignoring racists and stopped being so worried/offended by what people say.


The difference here is that the comparison of black people to monkeys has a VERY long history steeped in racism. Big difference between the two.

As far as the original poster. Maybe you should have put some thought and research into doing something before doing it. I could forgive this if you weren't from this country and were ignorant of the racist tones of your"art." However since you are from this country and our racist past of using this comparison, I'd say you fully knew what you were doing.

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Postby Flameswroth » Fri Apr 30, 2010 9:33 am

MisanthropicPopulism wrote:
Flameswroth wrote:I dunno about him, but I have. They're pretty dang funny. I'm not sure what your point in asking this is, though. Even if he has seen them, and they are well and truly funny, that doesn't disprove the double standard that's implied.

Does Mayor Nutter look like a gorilla.

Not sure, the pictures being addressed were the GWB pictures with monkeys from what I could tell. A brief Google-fu search shows a very...big-lipped Mayor Nutter. Gorillas don't really have fleshy lips like that normally.

Does that really matter, though? Does the accuracy of the comparison impact the reception. For instance, if it were a very close match between the two, would accusations of racism be discarded in favor of, "Heheh, that DOES kind of look like him"? How close is close enough in similarity before racism becomes valid humor? Somehow I doubt any degree of similarity would be construed as humor rather than racism. But that's just me.
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Postby Dyakovo » Fri Apr 30, 2010 9:34 am

Flameswroth wrote:
Dyakovo wrote:Have you ever actually looked at said pictures?

I dunno about him, but I have. They're pretty dang funny. I'm not sure what your point in asking this is, though. Even if he has seen them, and they are well and truly funny, that doesn't disprove the double standard that's implied.

The chimp comparison with Bush is because of the faces he makes while talking, not attempting to denigrate him based on his ethnicity. Thus no double standard on racism.

MisanthropicPopulism wrote:Does Mayor Nutter look like a gorilla.

Image vs Image

No
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Postby Dyakovo » Fri Apr 30, 2010 9:35 am

greed and death wrote:
Dyakovo wrote:
Willenburg wrote:
IL Ruffino wrote:So my school has a competition for it's art students at the end of every year, so I entered a photo of a gorilla that I took at the Philadelphia zoo into the portrait catagory since it wasn't very relevant to any of the others.

As a joke, I attached a model release to the back of my print that was signed "Michael Nutter" (the mayor of Philadelphia, who happens to be black). Well, the person who is in charge of this competition thought she should report this to the president of the school (who happens to be black) because of it's "racist" tone. He was pissed. I had to meet with him today to talk about the "situation" and he went off on this rant about how I should "show respect blah blah blah bigoted attack blah blah MLK blah blah.."

Needless to say, I didn't take this seriously and said ".. but I voted for Obama"

He was furious after that and decided to have all of my entries removed from the competiton and told me that I wouldn't be allowed to walk with my fellow students in two weeks.

It's not like I called him a nigger or told anyone to go pick cotton, so I don't understand how what I did can be seen as offensive in any way.

What can I do to fight this? I don't deserve this discrimination.


This is TOTAL B.S.

Give this story to FOX News. And any local newspapers. You still won't get to walk probably, but you can take the opportunity to call attention to some very REAL racism in the USA.

Why would it be in his best interest to call attention to his acting in a racist manner?

It would embarrass the school, lower its rankings, and make alumni less likely to donate money.

How would it embarrass the school?
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Postby Greed and Death » Fri Apr 30, 2010 9:36 am

Dyakovo wrote:
greed and death wrote:
Dyakovo wrote:
Willenburg wrote:
IL Ruffino wrote:So my school has a competition for it's art students at the end of every year, so I entered a photo of a gorilla that I took at the Philadelphia zoo into the portrait catagory since it wasn't very relevant to any of the others.

As a joke, I attached a model release to the back of my print that was signed "Michael Nutter" (the mayor of Philadelphia, who happens to be black). Well, the person who is in charge of this competition thought she should report this to the president of the school (who happens to be black) because of it's "racist" tone. He was pissed. I had to meet with him today to talk about the "situation" and he went off on this rant about how I should "show respect blah blah blah bigoted attack blah blah MLK blah blah.."

Needless to say, I didn't take this seriously and said ".. but I voted for Obama"

He was furious after that and decided to have all of my entries removed from the competiton and told me that I wouldn't be allowed to walk with my fellow students in two weeks.

It's not like I called him a nigger or told anyone to go pick cotton, so I don't understand how what I did can be seen as offensive in any way.

What can I do to fight this? I don't deserve this discrimination.


This is TOTAL B.S.

Give this story to FOX News. And any local newspapers. You still won't get to walk probably, but you can take the opportunity to call attention to some very REAL racism in the USA.

Why would it be in his best interest to call attention to his acting in a racist manner?

It would embarrass the school, lower its rankings, and make alumni less likely to donate money.

How would it embarrass the school?

that he is graduating and still produces art like that.
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Postby Dyakovo » Fri Apr 30, 2010 9:37 am

greed and death wrote:
Dyakovo wrote:
greed and death wrote:
Dyakovo wrote:Why would it be in his best interest to call attention to his acting in a racist manner?

It would embarrass the school, lower its rankings, and make alumni less likely to donate money.

How would it embarrass the school?

that he is graduating and still produces art like that.

Point.
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Postby Justorica » Fri Apr 30, 2010 9:40 am

IL Ruffino wrote:So my school has a competition for it's art students at the end of every year, so I entered a photo of a gorilla that I took at the Philadelphia zoo into the portrait catagory since it wasn't very relevant to any of the others.

As a joke, I attached a model release to the back of my print that was signed "Michael Nutter" (the mayor of Philadelphia, who happens to be black). Well, the person who is in charge of this competition thought she should report this to the president of the school (who happens to be black) because of it's "racist" tone. He was pissed. I had to meet with him today to talk about the "situation" and he went off on this rant about how I should "show respect blah blah blah bigoted attack blah blah MLK blah blah.."

Needless to say, I didn't take this seriously and said ".. but I voted for Obama"

He was furious after that and decided to have all of my entries removed from the competiton and told me that I wouldn't be allowed to walk with my fellow students in two weeks.

It's not like I called him a nigger or told anyone to go pick cotton, so I don't understand how what I did can be seen as offensive in any way.

What can I do to fight this? I don't deserve this discrimination.


What you did wrong was vote for Obama...........

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Postby The Black Plains » Fri Apr 30, 2010 9:42 am

Am I hearing this? Threaten to sue the school?! Is it a public school? If so maybe, it could work. If it's a private institution then no. Even as a public school he could claim it was disciplinary action for disrespecting him (the obama thing). If it's a private institution then you're out of luck.

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Postby Heinleinites » Fri Apr 30, 2010 9:47 am

Shoulda oughta known better. What did you think was going to happen? Did you imagine a scenario where this would end well for you? Use your head for something other than a hat rack next time.
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Postby Georgism » Fri Apr 30, 2010 9:48 am

That was a pretty silly thing to do :)
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Postby Greed and Death » Fri Apr 30, 2010 10:03 am

Dyakovo wrote:
greed and death wrote:
Dyakovo wrote:
greed and death wrote:
Dyakovo wrote:Why would it be in his best interest to call attention to his acting in a racist manner?

It would embarrass the school, lower its rankings, and make alumni less likely to donate money.

How would it embarrass the school?

that he is graduating and still produces art like that.

Point.

Schools are very protective of their image, For instance my school had a girl dump a baby in the dumpster by the dorm, but they were able get the police to say it was a local girl rather then a student, to protect the school's reputation.
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Brutland and Norden
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Postby Brutland and Norden » Fri Apr 30, 2010 10:46 am

Dygrian Wecro wrote:The very fact that internet pictures that compare GW Bush to monkeys are widely considered funny, and that pictures comparing Michelle Obama to monkeys are widely considered racist, shows how racist the society is at large.

Bush is compared to a monkey: Oh it must because his policies are so stupid, haha.

Obama is compared to a monkey: Oh that is so racist it must compare her physical appearance and black peoples´ intelligence at large to monkeys.

:clap:

Though I think that Ruffy made an error of judgment in doing this type of thing. Artists and art are controversial, he should've seen this tempest brewing right there in the teapot, and prepared for the worst.

But if it was me, though, belonging to another race that had also been compared to monkeys, I'd let Ruffy walk so I can throw slippery banana peels on his path. :lol:
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Postby Astholm » Fri Apr 30, 2010 10:57 am

My take on this is:
Societal mores seem to dictate it's acceptable if someone did this, to say a photo of a grey-haired white man, but unacceptable to do it to a black person.
I'm not exactly sure why the link to gorillas is seen as racist, as "gorilla" is usually used in the context of a big or brutish person (Wiktionary's second definition for this word) but I guess that some quarters of society will think it has something to do with black people and Africa in a stereotypical sense.

However, artists can, technically, never win with their art, it's always going to get mixed reactions.

But there is still racial slurs these days, even in this racism-aware era. However, it could equally be argued that this is a satirical thing, done to poke fun at a political figure, and could be freedom of speech/free speech (not exactly sure of this) and is within the Constitution.

If you did intend to do this piece for reasons of societal context (i.e. bringing an issue to a wider audience), not shock value, discussing it first with the lecturer may have been the more sensible option.

Scarsaw wrote:I'm sure if a mayor decided to make it mandatory for all marriage licenses to be obtained by the man only, relating him to an ape and protesting that the law is as something primitive and barbaric (similar to cavemen knocking out and dragging away their wives), then the picture might be more acceptable.


Possibly, yes.

Jaunty tunes wrote:What I suggest you do is several things during a taped discussion
1) apologise if it did offend saying “if it did offend” as much as possible regardless of how much anyone else says it did offend (thats good political spin)
2) Argue that it was an act of political satire that is part of expressing freedom of speech
3) State that you are going to appeal the decision one way or another (even if you wont)
4) suggest a compromise (eg you wont appeal his decision to withdraw your other "art" work, and prehaps offer something else)


Sensible advice.

I've never made a post on a topic as serious as this before here, but I hope my arguments are of some interest.
Last edited by Astholm on Fri Apr 30, 2010 10:59 am, edited 2 times in total.
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