NationStates

Posted: **Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:20 pm**

Not at public schools per se, but in public HS/Uni, classes that are (optional) that teach elements of religious philosophy or even theology for those who are interested should be available, but definitely never compulsory.

Private schools are a different matter entirely.

Posted: **Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:21 pm**

La xinga wrote:
Godular wrote:
Specifically? A belief held on the basis of faith, which by definition involves a distinct lack of evidence.

Atheism is not predicated on faith. It specifically relies on logical reasoning that states that if there is no tangible and verifiable evidence supporting the proposition that a thing is true (e.g. 'God Exists'), one must logically default to the negation of that proposition (e.g. 'God Does Not Exist').

As Atheism specifically denies the utility of faith as evidence, it cannot be a religion.

The thing is that no one would accept something like this if they didn't see SOMETHING.

I know, I know, you don't see it as a proof, but somehow, I do.

Even presuming that this is somehow true, there's no guarantee that that something is what they think it is.

Posted: **Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:23 pm**

Estanglia wrote:
La xinga wrote:The thing is that no one would accept something like this if they didn't see SOMETHING.

I know, I know, you don't see it as a proof, but somehow, I do.

Even presuming that this is somehow true, there's no guarantee that that something is what they think it is.

Example?

Posted: **Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:25 pm**

La xinga wrote:
Estanglia wrote:
Even presuming that this is somehow true, there's no guarantee that that something is what they think it is.

Example?

Look up upside down city mirage

Posted: **Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:25 pm**

La xinga wrote:
Godular wrote:
What is it that causes you to hold their position as untrue, but you hold a story vastly more fantastical in higher regard? What makes your story any better than... say... the Norse Pantheon? You claim that people wouldn't follow it if they didn't see something? But back in the day, a simple thunderstorm was evidence for the existence of Thor and his apparently frequent bouts of indigestion.

Because no one would believe my religion or even want to be part of it, considering how hard it is, how expensive too.

Relevant

Posted: **Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:26 pm**

La xinga wrote:
Estanglia wrote:
Even presuming that this is somehow true, there's no guarantee that that something is what they think it is.

Example?

Thunderstorms = Thor after a can of beans

Posted: **Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:28 pm**

La xinga wrote:
Estanglia wrote:
Even presuming that this is somehow true, there's no guarantee that that something is what they think it is.

Example?

Say, someone decides to belive in a religion because they were predicted to die from an illness but somehow survived.

To them, that might be a reason to believe in that religion because they prayed to that religion's god/gods and got better. I'd call that one giant coincidence and no evidence that praying to that god/gods helped at all.

Posted: **Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:28 pm**

Neutraligon wrote:
La xinga wrote:Example?

Look up upside down city mirage

So the splitting of the sea, a hallucination for about 3 million people? Same for giving of the Torah, Korach and his men getting swallowed by the ground, the walls around Yericho, the burning of Sancheriv's army, all hallucinations?!

Posted: **Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:29 pm**

Estanglia wrote:
La xinga wrote:Example?

Say, someone decides to belive in a religion because they were predicted to die from an illness but somehow survived.

To them, that might be a reason to believe in that religion because they prayed to that religion's god/gods and got better. I'd call that one giant coincidence and no evidence that praying to that god/gods helped at all.

Good old confirmation bias.

Posted: **Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:29 pm**

Estanglia wrote:
La xinga wrote:Example?

Say, someone decides to belive in a religion because they were predicted to die from an illness but somehow survived.

To them, that might be a reason to believe in that religion because they prayed to that religion's god/gods and got better. I'd call that one giant coincidence and no evidence that praying to that god/gods helped at all.

That's before a religion happened, the stuff in Tanach are unnatural occurrences.

Posted: **Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:30 pm**

La xinga wrote:
Estanglia wrote:
Say, someone decides to belive in a religion because they were predicted to die from an illness but somehow survived.

To them, that might be a reason to believe in that religion because they prayed to that religion's god/gods and got better. I'd call that one giant coincidence and no evidence that praying to that god/gods helped at all.

That's before a religion happened, the stuff in Tanach are unnatural occurrences.

What?

Posted: **Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:30 pm**

La xinga wrote:
Neutraligon wrote:Look up upside down city mirage

So the splitting of the sea, a hallucination for about 3 million people? Same for giving of the Torah, Korach and his men getting swallowed by the ground, the walls around Yericho, the burning of Sancheriv's army, all hallucinations?!

That or lies... or significant amounts of exaggeration for dramatic effect.

Posted: **Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:30 pm**

Godular wrote:
La xinga wrote:Example?

Thunderstorms = Thor after a can of beans

1. Ew!
2. in Tanach, these are unnatural occurrences.

Posted: **Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:31 pm**

Godular wrote:
La xinga wrote:So the splitting of the sea, a hallucination for about 3 million people? Same for giving of the Torah, Korach and his men getting swallowed by the ground, the walls around Yericho, the burning of Sancheriv's army, all hallucinations?!

That or lies... or significant amounts of exaggeration for dramatic effect.

Or entirely natural phenomena. The statues that "bleed" tears of blood.

Posted: **Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:31 pm**

Godular wrote:
La xinga wrote:So the splitting of the sea, a hallucination for about 3 million people? Same for giving of the Torah, Korach and his men getting swallowed by the ground, the walls around Yericho, the burning of Sancheriv's army, all hallucinations?!

That or lies... or significant amounts of exaggeration for dramatic effect.

there must be a reason the Jews accepted such a hard thing.

Estanglia wrote:
La xinga wrote:That's before a religion happened, the stuff in Tanach are unnatural occurrences.

What?

What do you mean what?

Posted: **Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:32 pm**

Neutraligon wrote:
Godular wrote:
That or lies... or significant amounts of exaggeration for dramatic effect.

Or entirely natural phenomena. The statues that "bleed" tears of blood.

What?

Posted: **Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:32 pm**

La xinga wrote:
Godular wrote:
Thunderstorms = Thor after a can of beans

1. Ew!

You asked. I supplied.

2. in Tanach, these are unnatural occurrences.

Thunderstorms are unnatural? They happen all the time!

Posted: **Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:33 pm**

La xinga wrote:
Neutraligon wrote:Or entirely natural phenomena. The statues that "bleed" tears of blood.

What?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weeping_statue

Posted: **Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:33 pm**

La xinga wrote:
Godular wrote:
That or lies... or significant amounts of exaggeration for dramatic effect.

there must be a reason the Jews accepted such a hard thing.
Estanglia wrote:
What?

What do you mean what?

What do you mean by

La xinga wrote:That's before a religion happened, the stuff in Tanach are unnatural occurrences.

Posted: **Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:33 pm**

Godular wrote:
La xinga wrote:1. Ew!

You asked. I supplied.

2. in Tanach, these are unnatural occurrences.

Thunderstorms are unnatural? They happen all the time!

Of course they are, after all they are caused by Thor.

Posted: **Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:34 pm**

Godular wrote:
La xinga wrote:1. Ew!

You asked. I supplied.

2. in Tanach, these are unnatural occurrences.

Thunderstorms are unnatural? They happen all the time!

No, I'm stating something else. In Tanach, you cannot just say "thunderstorm"

if running around a wall 7 times and it falls down in natural, that's a really strange natural phenomenon.

Posted: **Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:34 pm**

Estanglia wrote:
La xinga wrote:there must be a reason the Jews accepted such a hard thing.
What do you mean what?

What do you mean by
La xinga wrote:That's before a religion happened, the stuff in Tanach are unnatural occurrences.

Running around a wall 7 times and it falls down?

Posted: **Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:37 pm**

La xinga wrote:
Godular wrote:
That or lies... or significant amounts of exaggeration for dramatic effect.

there must be a reason the Jews accepted such a hard thing.

They didn't, at first. The religion developed over time, as all religions do. It could just as easily started as a group of philosophical writings or folk tales that folks then started to actually believe in because everybody else did.

Shit, one need only look at the Greek pantheon for that. If nothing else, those stories are even more widely understood at outright fairy tales explaining this thing or that, but people made offerings and worship to them all the same.

Posted: **Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:38 pm**

Godular wrote:
La xinga wrote:there must be a reason the Jews accepted such a hard thing.

They didn't, at first. The religion developed over time, as all religions do. It could just as easily started as a group of philosophical writings or folk tales that folks then started to actually believe in because everybody else did.

Shit, one need only look at the Greek pantheon for that. If nothing else, those stories are even more widely understood at outright fairy tales explaining this thing or that, but people made offerings and worship to them all the same.

You're saying it stating it started off with 1 commandment and grew to 613?

Posted: **Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:39 pm**

La xinga wrote:
Estanglia wrote:
What do you mean by

Running around a wall 7 times and it falls down?

I have no idea what point you're trying to make, nor how it connects to my point that people might believe in religion because of something that is actually not that special.

NationStates

Should Religions Be Taught in Schools?