Should Religions Be Taught in Schools?

[Neanderthaland]

It's astonishing that not until Rousseau starts mention these ideas, just prior to the American revolution, do any Christians talk about them.

Apparently they just didn't notice they had these ideals for a few thousand years.

If you look at the book of Acts, you'll see that the ideals have been around for a while. For example: "All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of their possessions was their own, but they shared everything they had.

That has NEVER been an American ideal. The Americans complained that they had to share their houses with British soldiers sent to protect them.

With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And God’s grace was so powerfully at work in them all that there were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned land or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales and put it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to anyone who had need." Acts 4:32-35

Profoundly un-American, this. Remember, these were people who fought a revolution over paying a modest tax for tea.

[Katganistan]

Jefferson does say "Nature's God" in the Declaration of Independence but what does that mean? A real Christian would have said "God" and let it go at that. The Constitution does not refer God anywhere and says there shall be no religious tests. So ... what Christian ideals? Slavery? The denial of suffrage to women?

Things like ending slavery in some of the states, or that people have rights from God.

Then you don't know your own history. Christians created Bibles to give to slaves that eliminated the OT so they wouldn't get the idea slavery was bad. They eliminated entire parts of it to suggest that slaves should be obedient.
The Bible was used to justify the slavery of blacks as well. So no, don't give the happy crappy version -- tell the whole story. Some Christians definitely fought against slavery but others just as happily weaponized the religion to keep hold of their "cherished institution".

Those are relatively new problems. They weren't part of the original intent. If people could return to the initial Christian ideals, none of those would be problems.

They absolutely are not "relatively new problems." See: the Bible where Jesus beat the moneylenders (usurers, charging interest) and tossed them out of the temple, "render unto Caesar what is Caesars" (taxes) and what Jesus also says about the rich:

I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God. When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?” Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” Matthew 19:23-26

And then go look at the televangelists and tell me What's Wrong With This Picture?

[Geneviev]

Try again.

Na Geneviev is absolutely right on this. The Great Awakening(s) pretty firmly cemented America as a Christian nation, and that's only recently started to change.

I don't know if I'd say recently. It's around the 1840s or so, maybe.

If you look at the book of Acts, you'll see that the ideals have been around for a while. For example: "All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of their possessions was their own, but they shared everything they had.

That has NEVER been an American ideal.

With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And God’s grace was so powerfully at work in them all that there were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned land or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales and put it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to anyone who had need." Acts 4:32-35

Profoundly un-American, this. Remember, these were people who fought a revolution over paying a modest tax for tea.

It wasn't just the taxes. And things like that were American once. People just don't see it that way anymore.

[Katganistan]

Try again.

Na Geneviev is absolutely right on this. The Great Awakening(s) pretty firmly cemented America as a Christian nation, and that's only recently started to change.

No, not really.

[Neanderthaland]

Na Geneviev is absolutely right on this. The Great Awakening(s) pretty firmly cemented America as a Christian nation, and that's only recently started to change.

I don't know if I'd say recently. It's around the 1840s or so, maybe.

That has NEVER been an American ideal.


Profoundly un-American, this. Remember, these were people who fought a revolution over paying a modest tax for tea.

It wasn't just the taxes. And things like that were American once. People just don't see it that way anymore.

No. They weren't. You're making it up.

And I'm frankly getting kind of annoyed by it.

[Geneviev]

Things like ending slavery in some of the states, or that people have rights from God.

Then you don't know your own history. Christians created Bibles to give to slaves that eliminated the OT so they wouldn't get the idea slavery was bad. They eliminated entire parts of it to suggest that slaves should be obedient.
The Bible was used to justify the slavery of blacks as well. So no, don't give the happy crappy version -- tell the whole story. Some Christians definitely faught against slavery but others just as happily weaponized the religion to keep hold of their "cherished institution".

Those are relatively new problems. They weren't part of the original intent. If people could return to the initial Christian ideals, none of those would be problems.

They absolutely are not "relatively new problems." See: the Bible where Jesus beat the moneylenders and tossed the out of the temple, "render unto Caesar what is Caesars" (taxes) and what Jesus also says about the rich:

I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God. When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?” Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” Matthew 19:23-26

Yes, Christianity was used to defend slavery. That corruption of the religion happened later, though, after Christian ideals already disappeared from the culture.

Yes, I know that those things are in the Bible. And people believed those verses and acted on them once, too. The 2nd Great Awakening had a lot of Christians try to return to those ideals.

[Neanderthaland]

Then you don't know your own history. Christians created Bibles to give to slaves that eliminated the OT so they wouldn't get the idea slavery was bad. They eliminated entire parts of it to suggest that slaves should be obedient.
The Bible was used to justify the slavery of blacks as well. So no, don't give the happy crappy version -- tell the whole story. Some Christians definitely faught against slavery but others just as happily weaponized the religion to keep hold of their "cherished institution".




They absolutely are not "relatively new problems." See: the Bible where Jesus beat the moneylenders and tossed the out of the temple, "render unto Caesar what is Caesars" (taxes) and what Jesus also says about the rich:

Yes, Christianity was used to defend slavery. That corruption of the religion happened later, though, after Christian ideals already disappeared from the culture.

When? Americans owned slaves before the Revolution, they owned them after. They owned them in the Great Awakening.

When did Americans have these ideals you insist they had? Give me a date.

[Washington Resistance Army]

If Equality and rights were Christian ideals, then the United States would not have been the first Christian country to implement them nearly 1800 years after Christ.

Christian churches had them since the Roman Empire, but those ideals are dangerous for governments. That's why they weren't used like that before.

Is this the same Christian Rome that literally punished people with the death penalty for practicing other religions lol. This stuff was actively supported by people who were canonized. Late classical Christianity was anything but tolerant, it only became so once it started losing state power after the renaissance.

Na Geneviev is absolutely right on this. The Great Awakening(s) pretty firmly cemented America as a Christian nation, and that's only recently started to change.

No, not really.

This is just showing your ignorance of American history more than anything. The US has always, until really quite recently, been a Christian nation in terms of its social ideals and culture. That just happens when they made up the supermajority of the nation for its entire history, this isn't a controversial viewpoint at all.

[Geneviev]

I don't know if I'd say recently. It's around the 1840s or so, maybe.


It wasn't just the taxes. And things like that were American once. People just don't see it that way anymore.

No. They weren't. You're making it up.

And I'm frankly getting kind of annoyed by it.

They were, a while ago.

[Neanderthaland]

Christian churches had them since the Roman Empire, but those ideals are dangerous for governments. That's why they weren't used like that before.

Is this the same Christian Rome that literally punished people with the death penalty for practicing other religions lol. This stuff was actively supported by people who were canonized. Late classical Christianity was anything but tolerant, it only became so once it started losing state power after the renaissance.

No, not really.

This is just showing your ignorance of American history more than anything. The US has always, until really quite recently, been a Christian nation in terms of its social ideals and culture. That just happens when they made up the supermajority of the nation for its entire history, this isn't a controversial viewpoint at all.

To the extent that this is true, it is trivial. To the extent that it is profound, it is false.

[Geneviev]

Yes, Christianity was used to defend slavery. That corruption of the religion happened later, though, after Christian ideals already disappeared from the culture.

When? Americans owned slaves before the Revolution, they owned them after. They owned them in the Great Awakening.

When did Americans have these ideals you insist they had? Give me a date.

After the Revolution, they wanted to end slavery. It obviously wasn't successful, but they did end involvement in the international slave trade.

The ideals were strongest during and immediately after the Revolution and the different Great Awakenings. Other than that, they were mostly ignored with a few exceptions.

[Neanderthaland]

No. They weren't. You're making it up.

And I'm frankly getting kind of annoyed by it.

They were, a while ago.

So first of all: all of these happen well-after the Revolution, and have nothing to do with it.

Secondly: these are not particularly astonishing, special, or representative of general society. Most of these happen concurrently with child labor, and the Nadir of American race relations (the worst time of Segregation, and lynchings.)

[Neanderthaland]

When? Americans owned slaves before the Revolution, they owned them after. They owned them in the Great Awakening.

When did Americans have these ideals you insist they had? Give me a date.

After the Revolution, they wanted to end slavery. It obviously wasn't successful, but they did end involvement in the international slave trade.

The ideals were strongest during and immediately after the Revolution and the different Great Awakenings. Other than that, they were mostly ignored with a few exceptions.

Which had nothing to do with Christianity. Most Christians at the time believed that Christianity supported Slavery. It wasn't until almost a hundred years later that you began to get a dissenting view in American politics.

Northerners didn't like Slavery, because it was difficult to compete with Slave labor economically. And because they didn't want all the best land going to ultra-rich plantation owners.

[Geneviev]

They were, a while ago.

So first of all: all of these happen well-after the Revolution, and have nothing to do with it.

Secondly: these are not particularly astonishing, special, or representative of general society. Most of these happen concurrently with child labor, and the Nadir of American race relations (the worst time of Segregation, and lynchings.)

Right, but I never said people were going to be perfect. Those are most similar to what was described in the passage from Acts, which had nothing to do with race relations.

[Neanderthaland]

So first of all: all of these happen well-after the Revolution, and have nothing to do with it.

Secondly: these are not particularly astonishing, special, or representative of general society. Most of these happen concurrently with child labor, and the Nadir of American race relations (the worst time of Segregation, and lynchings.)

Right, but I never said people were going to be perfect. Those are most similar to what was described in the passage from Acts, which had nothing to do with race relations.

But there's nothing to indicate that these are widespread American ideals. If they were, then these things wouldn't have been the exception.

[Katganistan]

This is just showing your ignorance of American history more than anything. The US has always, until really quite recently, been a Christian nation in terms of its social ideals and culture. That just happens when they made up the supermajority of the nation for its entire history, this isn't a controversial viewpoint at all.

I am not ignorant on this. You simply don't believe it and so will stick to the narrative despite the Constitution and the official documents like the Treaty of Tripoli spelling it out in terms so plain that they should be easy for all but the most stalwart "la la not listening" types to understand. So, stick your "you're ignorant" where it belongs.

[Geneviev]

After the Revolution, they wanted to end slavery. It obviously wasn't successful, but they did end involvement in the international slave trade.

The ideals were strongest during and immediately after the Revolution and the different Great Awakenings. Other than that, they were mostly ignored with a few exceptions.

Which had nothing to do with Christianity. Most Christians at the time believed that Christianity supported Slavery. It wasn't until almost a hundred years later that you began to get a dissenting view in American politics.

Northerners didn't like Slavery, because it was difficult to compete with Slave labor economically. And because they didn't want all the best land going to ultra-rich plantation owners.

"I wish most sincerely there was not a slave in this province. It always appeared a most iniquitous scheme to me -- to fight ourselves for what we are daily robbing and plundering from those who have as good a right to freedom as we have." Abigail Adams, during the Revolution, was one of the Christians who was against slavery. A few people had ideals.

Right, but I never said people were going to be perfect. Those are most similar to what was described in the passage from Acts, which had nothing to do with race relations.

But there's nothing to indicate that these are widespread American ideals. If they were, then these things wouldn't have been the exception.

They were either part of larger movements or became widespread.

[Prosperon]

It depends on the context. In Ottawa we have publicly funded Catholic schools, but that is due to a large Catholic population and history. That is fine, since there is also a normal publicly funded school board. If the normal public school board had teachers that preached their religion to kids, then that would not be ok.

So really, it depends on the context. If religious schools are an option and normal public school is also an option, that is ok. If religious schooling is the only option, then that should not be allowed.

[Neanderthaland]

Which had nothing to do with Christianity. Most Christians at the time believed that Christianity supported Slavery. It wasn't until almost a hundred years later that you began to get a dissenting view in American politics.

Northerners didn't like Slavery, because it was difficult to compete with Slave labor economically. And because they didn't want all the best land going to ultra-rich plantation owners.

"I wish most sincerely there was not a slave in this province. It always appeared a most iniquitous scheme to me -- to fight ourselves for what we are daily robbing and plundering from those who have as good a right to freedom as we have." Abigail Adams, during the Revolution, was one of the Christians who was against slavery. A few people had ideals.

When "a few people" have ideals, they're not "American ideals."

America was not largely against slavery at it's founding. Most of the people who were, were for economic reasons. It's further questionable to call opposition to slavery a Christian ideal, since there's a LOT of historical Christian rhetoric going the other way.

Face it, your "glorious Christian past" that America needs to "return to" is a fiction. One you are ignorantly buying into.

EDIT: and just as an aside, kind of an odd choice for a "Christian" perspective. As she was a non-trinitarian, largely ostracized for her religious views.

But there's nothing to indicate that these are widespread American ideals. If they were, then these things wouldn't have been the exception.

They were either part of larger movements or became widespread.

Rich people giving up all their wealth never became widespread in America. This "glorious Christian past" that you keep referring back to never exited.

[Rojava Free State]

I wanna have a class on Norse neopaganism. When someone asks what that even is, I'll just start blasting some black metal and say "this basically."

[Washington Resistance Army]

This is just showing your ignorance of American history more than anything. The US has always, until really quite recently, been a Christian nation in terms of its social ideals and culture. That just happens when they made up the supermajority of the nation for its entire history, this isn't a controversial viewpoint at all.

I am not ignorant on this. You simply don't believe it and so will stick to the narrative despite the Constitution and the official documents like the Treaty of Tripoli spelling it out in terms so plain that they should be easy for all but the most stalwart "la la not listening" types to understand. So, stick your "you're ignorant" where it belongs.

What narrative lol, I'm not even a Christian and I'm extremely critical of its history.

If you want to understand the Treaty of Tripoli and such things you should read The Founding Fathers and the Place of Religion in America. It was a one off line included to further reassure Tripoli that we wouldn't go back and change the treaty or withdraw from it solely because they were Muslims and we were Christians. Being a secular does not preclude the possibility of said states culture and ideals still being drawn almost entirely from religion, it just means you can't have a state church. That's literally all the establishment clause is.

[Neanderthaland]

I wanna have a class on Norse neopaganism. When someone asks what that even is, I'll just start blasting some black metal and say "this basically."

Thor wept.

[Thyrgga]

The schools already teach a religion; it just doesn't have a god.

[Christian Democrats]

Of course. The purpose of a school is to educate children; and religious education, no less and indeed more than other forms of education, is necessary for a child's intellectual growth into a mature adulthood.

[Geneviev]

"I wish most sincerely there was not a slave in this province. It always appeared a most iniquitous scheme to me -- to fight ourselves for what we are daily robbing and plundering from those who have as good a right to freedom as we have." Abigail Adams, during the Revolution, was one of the Christians who was against slavery. A few people had ideals.

When "a few people" have ideals, they're not "American ideals."

America was not largely against slavery at it's founding. Most of the people who were, were for economic reasons. It's further questionable to call opposition to slavery a Christian ideal, since there's a LOT of historical Christian rhetoric going the other way.

Face it, your "glorious Christian past" that America needs to "return to" is a fiction. One you are ignorantly buying into.

They were either part of larger movements or became widespread.

Rich people giving up all their wealth never became widespread in America. This "glorious Christian past" that you keep referring back to never exited.

Those few people were the ones that mattered. If they represent America, their ideals should be American ideals. And I don't think that side ever was Christian, really.

I think Americans returning to that past is mostly a pleasant fantasy, so I will give you that. It's unlikely.

There weren't a lot of rich people during the Gilded Age, but many of those few did do it. Rockefeller and Carnegie are the first examples I can think of, but there were more.