Should Native American Nations be made independent countries

[Seangoli]

But why should they get greater autonomy?

Is this not unfair to the average American citizen?

Should it not be balanced and equal all across?

Because they were there before the US formed and we agreed via agreements they could.

It's not even really that. It's like asking why does Rhide Island get to be autonomous from New York, or Minneapolis can make autonomous decisions without input from Seattle.

Equally, their autonomy in practice is somewhere between a the level a county has and a state has, only with federal oversight instead of state oversight. It's really not typically particularly autonomous, and generally only have the ability to encourage or discourage certain types of activity on the reservation.

[Novus America]

Because they were there before the US formed and we agreed via agreements they could.

It's not even really that. It's like asking why does Rhide Island get to be autonomous from New York, or Minneapolis can make autonomous decisions without input from Seattle.

Equally, their autonomy in practice is somewhere between a the level a county has and a state has, only with federal oversight instead of state oversight. It's really not typically particularly autonomous, and generally only have the ability to encourage or discourage certain types of activity on the reservation.

Some of those were because of agreements going back before the formation of the US.

True their autonomy is limited, but it is more complicated because they are not counties, overlap with counties and have conflicts with them, and are also subject to some state oversight and laws too. Which needs to be simplified.

The legal confusion needs to be streamlined which would help things a lot, with a clear division and greater delegation of powers and county, municipal boundaries and congressional districts set so that they align with, rather than conflicting with the reservations lines.

[Rojava Free State]

Because they were there before the US formed and we agreed via agreements they could.

It's not even really that. It's like asking why does Rhide Island get to be autonomous from New York, or Minneapolis can make autonomous decisions without input from Seattle.

Equally, their autonomy in practice is somewhere between a the level a county has and a state has, only with federal oversight instead of state oversight. It's really not typically particularly autonomous, and generally only have the ability to encourage or discourage certain types of activity on the reservation.

So they're like territories?

[Novus America]

It's not even really that. It's like asking why does Rhide Island get to be autonomous from New York, or Minneapolis can make autonomous decisions without input from Seattle.

Equally, their autonomy in practice is somewhere between a the level a county has and a state has, only with federal oversight instead of state oversight. It's really not typically particularly autonomous, and generally only have the ability to encourage or discourage certain types of activity on the reservation.

So they're like territories?

In a way yes, though most territories have more autonomy and it is more on a case by case basis. Also territories are not within any state or county, while the reservations are.

[Inner Firatrundessia]

No because they would be extremely vunerable by themselves and without the protection of the US government. I'm aware of the severe injustice in how the government has treated them. And I do think whatever we have now isn't working, and needs to be fixed, but separating from the America is a bad idea. Although to be fair I'm not a native American, I admit I am not knowledgeable on this subject

[Rojava Free State]

So they're like territories?

In a way yes, though most territories have more autonomy and it is more on a case by case basis. Also territories are not within any state or county, while the reservations are.

The reservations are an odd concept fr.

[Dahyan]

In a way yes, though most territories have more autonomy and it is more on a case by case basis. Also territories are not within any state or county, while the reservations are.

The reservations are an odd concept fr.

Well, they are the result of a massive genocide, so yeah.

[Rojava Free State]

The reservations are an odd concept fr.

Well, they are the result of a massive genocide, so yeah.

If you think about it, reservations at least back in the late 19th century to early 20th century were like Native American concentration camps.

Yes, I know we're supposed to keep the illusion going that the holocaust is totally unique and nothing comparable ever happened in world history, but that's simply not true. Any place people are basically imprisoned without adequate food or supplies just for their ethnicity is a concentration camp.

[Dahyan]

Well, they are the result of a massive genocide, so yeah.

If you think about it, reservations at least back in the late 19th century to early 20th century were like Native American concentration camps.

Yes, I know we're supposed to keep the illusion going that the holocaust is totally unique and nothing comparable ever happened in world history, but that's simply not true. Any place people are basically imprisoned without adequate food or supplies just for their ethnicity is a concentration camp.

Basically, yes. The Nazis didn't even invent the concept, let alone be the only ones who used it.

[Rojava Free State]

If you think about it, reservations at least back in the late 19th century to early 20th century were like Native American concentration camps.

Yes, I know we're supposed to keep the illusion going that the holocaust is totally unique and nothing comparable ever happened in world history, but that's simply not true. Any place people are basically imprisoned without adequate food or supplies just for their ethnicity is a concentration camp.

Basically, yes. The Nazis didn't even invent the concept, let alone be the only ones who used it.

I heard they used to forcefully imprison people on the reservations and would hunt down and bring back anyone who tried to leave.

[Auze]

Well, they are the result of a massive genocide, so yeah.

If you think about it, reservations at least back in the late 19th century to early 20th century were like Native American concentration camps.

Yes, I know we're supposed to keep the illusion going that the holocaust is totally unique and nothing comparable ever happened in world history, but that's simply not true. Any place people are basically imprisoned without adequate food or supplies just for their ethnicity is a concentration camp.

Concentration camps were not knew to the Nazis. The whole "mass gassing of people in the concentration camps" thing was new, and unique in how industrialized it was.

[Rojava Free State]

The only thing worse than the reservations themselves were the Indian schools. Oh boy, ooooh boy.

[Heloin]

The only thing worse than the reservations themselves were the Indian schools. Oh boy, ooooh boy.

I think actual murdering people genocides, which happened a lot to Native Americans, is still probably much worse.

[Atheris]

Well, they are the result of a massive genocide, so yeah.

If you think about it, reservations at least back in the late 19th century to early 20th century were like Native American concentration camps.

Yes, I know we're supposed to keep the illusion going that the holocaust is totally unique and nothing comparable ever happened in world history, but that's simply not true. Any place people are basically imprisoned without adequate food or supplies just for their ethnicity is a concentration camp.

Concentration camps weren't unique. The whole "gassing 11 million people in said concentration camps and enslaving the rest" was.

[Rojava Free State]

If you think about it, reservations at least back in the late 19th century to early 20th century were like Native American concentration camps.

Yes, I know we're supposed to keep the illusion going that the holocaust is totally unique and nothing comparable ever happened in world history, but that's simply not true. Any place people are basically imprisoned without adequate food or supplies just for their ethnicity is a concentration camp.

Concentration camps weren't unique. The whole "gassing 11 million people in said concentration camps and enslaving the rest" was.

Do we know how many native Americans starved and died on the reservations in the early 20th century?

[Nap the Magnificent]

In a way yes, though most territories have more autonomy and it is more on a case by case basis. Also territories are not within any state or county, while the reservations are.

The reservations are an odd concept fr.

It's a complicated history as to how they arose and dates back to older colonial attempts to manage the expansion of colonies whilst living alongside a particular tribe. The early American-Indian Wars were incredibly brutal, even by the standards of the day, which over time led to the idea of creating treaties and "negotiating" with a particular tribe to give up huge tracts of territory other than those set aside where tribal law would come first and foremost and with this promise supposed to be guaranteed by the US federal government. At least, that was the theory. This was considered better than waging a shit ton of really brutal wars which often led to whole scale massacres and other atrocities committed by either side. It's been a messy affair since then with a number of tribes being forced into lands they didn't have any historical connection to for instance or some tribes being forced to share a reserve with another tribe.

[Nap the Magnificent]

Concentration camps weren't unique. The whole "gassing 11 million people in said concentration camps and enslaving the rest" was.

Do we know how many native Americans starved and died on the reservations in the early 20th century?

Why limit it at the early 20th century? Even today a lot of them have horrendous living conditions with higher rates of just about nearly everything negative you can think of from poverty, infant mortality, drug and alcohol addiction. A lot of them lack things such as appropriate housing, safe drinking water, readily available health care, etc.

[Nap the Magnificent]

Basically, yes. The Nazis didn't even invent the concept, let alone be the only ones who used it.

I heard they used to forcefully imprison people on the reservations and would hunt down and bring back anyone who tried to leave.

Yes, this was the case after 1851 with the Indian Appropriations Act where they couldn't leave their reserve without permission.

[Ayytaly]

hopefully we can do it better this time, now that we know where things went wrong and how we can systematically help them make the transition better (we have a lot more data, better technology, better management, better understanding etc)

there will need to be a few decades of adjustment but with the right government support, I think can make the transition (and they should because it promotes equality and freedom for all)

This is my hope

Assimilation with a hefty dose of white man’s burden isn’t equality. It’d actually be called cultural genocide.

The culture's already been genocided, love. Nothing says "American" like adopting the ways of Europe, especifically Anglo-Saxon and Germanic culture. I theorize that's the main reason why even conservative white folk favor black folk over [indigenous] American in race relations---the former was Anglicized and continues to embrace their variation of Anglo-Saxonism to this day, whereas the latter continuously resists and pushes for recognition of their lands, languages, and culture. This pisses off the typical paleoconservative WASP, who already hates multiculturalism in general; he desires EVERYONE to be just as milquetoast and generic as he is, because--in his mind--the US was founded on "WeSteRn VaLuEs!", and thus the people should abide to Western European culture, and only Western European. Ironically, Europe's early civilizations were founded by outsiders, but logic doesn't apply to them, just collective narcissism.

But I digress.

[Dahyan]

Assimilation with a hefty dose of white man’s burden isn’t equality. It’d actually be called cultural genocide.

The culture's already been genocided, love. Nothing says "American" like adopting the ways of Europe, especifically Anglo-Saxon and Germanic culture. I theorize that's the main reason why even conservative white folk favor black folk over [indigenous] American in race relations---the former was Anglicized and continues to embrace their variation of Anglo-Saxonism to this day, whereas the latter continuously resists and pushes for recognition of their lands, languages, and culture. This pisses off the typical paleoconservative WASP, who already hates multiculturalism in general; he desires EVERYONE to be just as milquetoast and generic as he is, because--in his mind--the US was founded on "WeSteRn VaLuEs!", and thus the people should abide to Western European culture, and only Western European. Ironically, Europe's early civilizations were founded by outsiders, but logic doesn't apply to them, just collective narcissism.

But I digress.

This analysis is on point.

[Heloin]

The culture's already been genocided, love. Nothing says "American" like adopting the ways of Europe, especifically Anglo-Saxon and Germanic culture. I theorize that's the main reason why even conservative white folk favor black folk over [indigenous] American in race relations---the former was Anglicized and continues to embrace their variation of Anglo-Saxonism to this day, whereas the latter continuously resists and pushes for recognition of their lands, languages, and culture. This pisses off the typical paleoconservative WASP, who already hates multiculturalism in general; he desires EVERYONE to be just as milquetoast and generic as he is, because--in his mind--the US was founded on "WeSteRn VaLuEs!", and thus the people should abide to Western European culture, and only Western European. Ironically, Europe's early civilizations were founded by outsiders, but logic doesn't apply to them, just collective narcissism.

But I digress.

This analysis is on point.

No it isn't. It's a condescending ramble that begins with one point, creates a conclusion that directly contradicts what he first stated, then bitches about what western culture is.

[Rojava Free State]

This analysis is on point.

No it isn't. It's a condescending ramble that begins with one point, creates a conclusion that directly contradicts what he first stated, then bitches about what western culture is.

WASPs stopped being important in America after 1930. And if anything conservative white people like natives more than blacks. It's why stories about crime on native reservations illicit typical responses of "so sad. Such a sad sad place." But talk about crime in Detroit and they say "someone let the monkeys out of the zoo again."

[Dahyan]

This analysis is on point.

No it isn't. It's a condescending ramble that begins with one point, creates a conclusion that directly contradicts what he first stated, then bitches about what western culture is.

Are you denying that Anglo-Saxon supremacist thought lies at the basis of the United States as a country?

[Rojava Free State]

No it isn't. It's a condescending ramble that begins with one point, creates a conclusion that directly contradicts what he first stated, then bitches about what western culture is.

Are you denying that Anglo-Saxon supremacist thought lies at the basis of the United States as a country?

It doesn't anymore. They don't make up more than 20% of America.

[Dahyan]

Are you denying that Anglo-Saxon supremacist thought lies at the basis of the United States as a country?

It doesn't anymore. They don't make up more than 20% of America.

20% seems like a very low estimate. But nevertheless, the concept of "Western values" as it is often understood is Anglo-Saxon in essence. The United States still heavily emphasizes this concept, often to the detriment of other cultures.