Should Native American Nations be made independent countries

[US-SSR]

You want an eye opener, read some of the Bureau of Indian Affairs reports to Congress from the 1850s and 1860s. Extermination, i.e. genocide, was seriously put forward as a solution to the "Indian problem," the main objections being that with all the costly military forces then arrayed against the natives the extermination was hardly proceeding as planned (q.v. Little Big Horn) and that a successful extermination of every native, man, woman and child, might leave the US looking somewhat brutish in the eyes of the rest of the world. As we know the alternative solution was the reservation/boarding school system that tried to "kill the Indian and make him into a white man," with the eqally well-known results.

No wonder that by the time the Confederates came around, they were actually quite successful in drumming up Native support for a war against the US.

(Yes, I am aware of the fact that the Cherokee and some other nations practiced chattel slavery and had a vested economic interest in the war played a big role)

I've seen plenty of allegations that Rebel agents were whipping up Native rebellions such as the 1862 Dakota uprising in Minnesota and the Dakotas but not much in the way of historical evidence that that was a policy of the Confederacy or even a thing. I'm sure the South wouldn't have opposed any such goings on but I'm less than convinced that anything that was going on amounted to anything like a separate front of the war effort.

And as for historical resentment against the white man, that would have gone for the South as well as the North. At some risk of repeating myself, it was taking hundreds of thousands of acres of Native land and putting enslaved Africans to work on it that laid the foundation for the power and prosperity of the US.

[The Alma Mater]

No wonder that by the time the Confederates came around, they were actually quite successful in drumming up Native support for a war against the US.

(Yes, I am aware of the fact that the Cherokee and some other nations practiced chattel slavery and had a vested economic interest in the war played a big role)

I've seen plenty of allegations that Rebel agents were whipping up Native rebellions such as the 1862 Dakota uprising in Minnesota and the Dakotas but not much in the way of historical evidence that that was a policy of the Confederacy or even a thing. I'm sure the South wouldn't have opposed any such goings on but I'm less than convinced that anything that was going on amounted to anything like a separate front of the war effort.

And as for historical resentment against the white man, that would have gone for the South as well as the North. At some risk of repeating myself, it was taking hundreds of thousands of acres of Native land and putting enslaved Africans to work on it that laid the foundation for the power and prosperity of the US.

And then celebrating that every year with thanksgiving. Nicely driving the "being a shitbag" home

[Rojava Free State]

I've seen plenty of allegations that Rebel agents were whipping up Native rebellions such as the 1862 Dakota uprising in Minnesota and the Dakotas but not much in the way of historical evidence that that was a policy of the Confederacy or even a thing. I'm sure the South wouldn't have opposed any such goings on but I'm less than convinced that anything that was going on amounted to anything like a separate front of the war effort.

And as for historical resentment against the white man, that would have gone for the South as well as the North. At some risk of repeating myself, it was taking hundreds of thousands of acres of Native land and putting enslaved Africans to work on it that laid the foundation for the power and prosperity of the US.

And then celebrating that every year with thanksgiving. Nicely driving the "being a shitbag" home

When you have a nice party with someone and then you go and kill their parents.

[Meremos Alloriumenion]

It would be a disaster if they were.

[Rojava Free State]

It would be a disaster if they were.

I can imagine that landlocked countries of 10,000 people with majorities living in poverty wouldn't do too well.

[Soled]

America isn't the only place where Europeans met natives. It happened here in Scandinavia too. They're called the Sámi people and exist in a status of having certain economic, linguistic and political freedoms but still being governed by a much larger, mostly urban European population. They traditionally inhabited all of northern Fennoscandia and compromise a significant minority of its population today. They have, sadly, suffered a lot of hardships and injustices since the 19th century. There's never been any calls for independence because they've never held any real influence whatsoever.

[Rojava Free State]

America isn't the only place where Europeans met natives. It happened here in Scandinavia too. They're called the Sámi people and exist in a status of having certain economic, linguistic and political freedoms but still being governed by a much larger, mostly urban European population. They traditionally inhabited all of northern Fennoscandia and compromise a significant minority of its population today. They have, sadly, suffered a lot of hardships and injustices since the 19th century. There's never been any calls for independence because they've never held any real influence whatsoever.

The sami are europeans, Closely related to the Finns. Don't let their appearance fool you, they're genetically related to people in Scandanavia. Now the gypsies aren't European in heritage but they arent native either.

[Soled]

America isn't the only place where Europeans met natives. It happened here in Scandinavia too. They're called the Sámi people and exist in a status of having certain economic, linguistic and political freedoms but still being governed by a much larger, mostly urban European population. They traditionally inhabited all of northern Fennoscandia and compromise a significant minority of its population today. They have, sadly, suffered a lot of hardships and injustices since the 19th century. There's never been any calls for independence because they've never held any real influence whatsoever.

The sami are europeans, Closely related to the Finns. Don't let their appearance fool you, they're genetically related to people in Scandanavia. Now the gypsies aren't European in heritage but they arent native either.

The Norwegian government classifies them as an urbefolkning, roughly equivalent to "native". They had a mostly unchanged nomadic lifestyle up until the 19th century. They are genetically unrelated to the Pitted Ware Culture people, and observed similarities are modern in nature. I find it unfair to call them "Europeans", since they lived outside European civilization for almost their entire history.

[Rojava Free State]

The sami are europeans, Closely related to the Finns. Don't let their appearance fool you, they're genetically related to people in Scandanavia. Now the gypsies aren't European in heritage but they arent native either.

The Norwegian government classifies them as an urbefolkning, roughly equivalent to "native". They had a mostly unchanged nomadic lifestyle up until the 19th century. They are genetically unrelated to the Pitted Ware Culture people, and observed similarities are modern in nature. I find it unfair to call them "Europeans", since they lived outside European civilization for almost their entire history.

They are European though both geographically and genetically.

[Neanderthaland]

The sami are europeans, Closely related to the Finns. Don't let their appearance fool you, they're genetically related to people in Scandanavia. Now the gypsies aren't European in heritage but they arent native either.

The Norwegian government classifies them as an urbefolkning, roughly equivalent to "native". They had a mostly unchanged nomadic lifestyle up until the 19th century. They are genetically unrelated to the Pitted Ware Culture people, and observed similarities are modern in nature. I find it unfair to call them "Europeans", since they lived outside European civilization for almost their entire history.

DNA analysis reveals their mitochondrial DNA to be among the most basal in Europe. They're European.

[Mornicoder]

No way. It would probably wreck the local economies of the native reservations even more, and most of the reservations (though there are exceptions like the Navajo Nation and the Cherokee reservation in Oklahoma), the bulk of them are less than a few square kilometres (See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian_reservations_in_the_United_States). Moreover, it would probably cause the industries in those nations (most are landlocked) to collapse. Do I need to say more?

[-SARS-]

The first step would be finding out which reservations (if any) actually want independence.

[Mornicoder]

The first step would be finding out which reservations (if any) actually want independence.

That's a pretty interesting proposal you have there.

[Loben The 2nd]

I've seen plenty of allegations that Rebel agents were whipping up Native rebellions such as the 1862 Dakota uprising in Minnesota and the Dakotas but not much in the way of historical evidence that that was a policy of the Confederacy or even a thing. I'm sure the South wouldn't have opposed any such goings on but I'm less than convinced that anything that was going on amounted to anything like a separate front of the war effort.

And as for historical resentment against the white man, that would have gone for the South as well as the North. At some risk of repeating myself, it was taking hundreds of thousands of acres of Native land and putting enslaved Africans to work on it that laid the foundation for the power and prosperity of the US.

And then celebrating that every year with thanksgiving. Nicely driving the "being a shitbag" home

It’s good eating, I see no reason to stop.

[The Archregimancy]

It would be a disaster if they were.

I can imagine that landlocked countries of 10,000 people with majorities living in poverty wouldn't do too well.

The Navajo Nation - population c. 173,000, and a contiguous area of c.71,000 km2 (c.27,400 sq mi) could possibly make a go of it. At a rough count, there are at least 17 fully independent members of the UN with populations less than the Navajo (going up to 18 if you count the Vatican state) - though they're all Caribbean and Pacific island states rather than landlocked territories (not counting the Vatican).

But even the Navajo would face the challenge of unemployment rates of c. 40%, reliance on a combination of subsistence herding, tourism, and mining (it might help if they reactivated uranium mining, but the Navajo don't seem inclined to do so - understandable given the history of uranium mining on the reservation), a lack of internal infrastructure, and unique medical problems (the unusual genetic problems of severe combined immunodeficiency and Navajo neurohepatopathology [and yes, I did have to look that one up] are some of the contributing factors behind the unusually severe COVID-19 outbreak on the reservation).

Still, Window Rock would make for one of the more interesting - if somewhat small - national capitals.

[Novus America]

I can imagine that landlocked countries of 10,000 people with majorities living in poverty wouldn't do too well.

The Navajo Nation - population c. 173,000, and a contiguous area of c.71,000 km2 (c.27,400 sq mi) could possibly make a go of it. At a rough count, there are at least 17 fully independent members of the UN with populations less than the Navajo (going up to 18 if you count the Vatican state) - though they're all Caribbean and Pacific island states rather than landlocked territories (not counting the Vatican).

But even the Navajo would face the challenge of unemployment rates of c. 40%, reliance on a combination of subsistence herding, tourism, and mining (it might help if they reactivated uranium mining, but the Navajo don't seem inclined to do so - understandable given the history of uranium mining on the reservation), a lack of internal infrastructure, and unique medical problems (the unusual genetic problems of severe combined immunodeficiency and Navajo neurohepatopathology [and yes, I did have to look that one up] are some of the contributing factors behind the unusually severe COVID-19 outbreak on the reservation).

Still, Window Rock would make for one of the more interesting - if somewhat small - national capitals.

But given it is land locked, and would still be completely reliant on a de facto a US dependency it makes far more sense for it to be a US commonwealth or state. Which actually would give it more autonomy and rights in reality than actual independence. The US constitution is a much better protection than international law. US courts can actually enforce their decisions and states can challenge the federal government in court and win. While international courts cannot do anything.

In reality no country is truly independent, especially not economically weak and land locked ones. (Vatican City for example is a de facto Italian protectorate).

Even if they did uranium mining and extraction they could only sell it through the US, and being independent they would be subject to US tariffs. Which they are currently exempt from.

Conversely US states cannot tariff other states, or block the flow of goods from on state to another state, except in rare cases. States have protections against trade restrictions. Independent countries have much fewer economic protections.

The idea of the Navajo Nation becoming a state, with a joining reservations reservations in the state is an interesting idea though.

[Cetacea]

The Navajo Nation - population c. 173,000, and a contiguous area of c.71,000 km2 (c.27,400 sq mi) could possibly make a go of it. At a rough count, there are at least 17 fully independent members of the UN with populations less than the Navajo (going up to 18 if you count the Vatican state) - though they're all Caribbean and Pacific island states rather than landlocked territories (not counting the Vatican).

But even the Navajo would face the challenge of unemployment rates of c. 40%, reliance on a combination of subsistence herding, tourism, and mining (it might help if they reactivated uranium mining, but the Navajo don't seem inclined to do so - understandable given the history of uranium mining on the reservation), a lack of internal infrastructure, and unique medical problems (the unusual genetic problems of severe combined immunodeficiency and Navajo neurohepatopathology [and yes, I did have to look that one up] are some of the contributing factors behind the unusually severe COVID-19 outbreak on the reservation).

Still, Window Rock would make for one of the more interesting - if somewhat small - national capitals.

But given it is land locked, and would still be completely reliant on a de facto a US dependency it makes far more sense for it to be a US commonwealth or state. Which actually would give it more autonomy and rights in reality than actual independence. The US constitution is a much better protection than international law. US courts can actually enforce their decisions and states can challenge the federal government in court and win. While international courts cannot do anything.

In reality no country is truly independent, especially not economically weak and land locked ones. (Vatican City for example is a de facto Italian protectorate).

Even if they did uranium mining and extraction they could only sell it through the US, and being independent they would be subject to US tariffs. Which they are currently exempt from.

Conversely US states cannot tariff other states, or block the flow of goods from on state to another state, except in rare cases. States have protections against trade restrictions. Independent countries have much fewer economic protections.

The idea of the Navajo Nation becoming a state, with a joining reservations reservations in the state is an interesting idea though.

Absolutely, Navajo Nation is in the absolutely best position on any other Native group to actually be recognised as a fully recognised state. As an independent Nation-State Navajo Nation would still be need to negotiate concessions and access agreements with the US, so better to have those ready made as a US State and then use State laws to mould things as you want them.

As I understand it the major impediment from the Navajo point of view is that the Treaty of 1868 is a constitutionally recognised document which gives Navajo some greta benefits (even though most of them are unfilled). A transition to any new status would need to lock in the Treaty provisions alongside any other federal benefits a Navajo congressman or senator could get. The other big issue is the relationship with the Hopi neighbours.
A commonwealth status like Puerto Rico might be better (though not without its own issues)

[Bear Stearns]

It would probably be more viable to make a single catch-all "American Indian" nation than to try to give each tribe a nation-state. We can give them Wyoming or something.

[Cetacea]

It would probably be more viable to make a single catch-all "American Indian" nation than to try to give each tribe a nation-state. We can give them Wyoming or something.

Maybe they could all march from their ancestral homes to the newly granted Indian Territory under Federal supervision

[Bear Stearns]

It would probably be more viable to make a single catch-all "American Indian" nation than to try to give each tribe a nation-state. We can give them Wyoming or something.

Maybe they could all march from their ancestral homes to the newly granted Indian Territory under Federal supervision

Well they aren't getting their ancestral homes back any time soon, so what do you propose?

[Cetacea]

Maybe they could all march from their ancestral homes to the newly granted Indian Territory under Federal supervision

Well they aren't getting their ancestral homes back any time soon, so what do you propose?

I already said that there are 12 reservations larger than the state of Rhode Island and Navajo Nation in particular could be a fully viable state with no major impact on its neighbouring states.

Smaller reservations could instead be incorporated as Counties or be given options to organise with neighbours...