Should Native American Nations be made independent countries

[Pilipinas and Malaya]

According to the 2016 census, the Navajo Nation had a population of 356,890. According to the same source, 166,826 were Navajo or other Native American (previously reported here as 96% despite actually being only about 47%), 3,249 White, 401 Asian or Pacific Islanders, 208 African American, and the remainder identifying some other group or more than one ancestry.[1] The 2010 census counts 109,963 individuals who report speaking a language at home that is neither Asian nor Indo-European.[1] DiscoverNavajo.com reports that 96% of the Navajo Nation is American Indian, and 66% of Navajo tribe members live on Navajo Nation.[65]

Damn, Navajo Nation really is large enough both geographically and population wise to be a state.

Pretty sure that population's higher than Wyoming's.

[Heloin]

Damn, Navajo Nation really is large enough both geographically and population wise to be a state.

Pretty sure that population's higher than Wyoming's.

The Navajo nation is a fifth the size population wise and it's population density is roughly half to a third of Wyoming's.

[Infected Mushroom]

They shouldn’t be independent.

They should integrate into US society. This is what will ensure equality and fairness under the law. Tribal institutions need to supervised or entirely abolished. This way, the US government can protect everyone and treat everyone equally under the law.

[Pilipinas and Malaya]

They shouldn’t be independent.

They should integrate into US society. This is what will ensure equality and fairness under the law. Tribal institutions need to supervised or entirely abolished. This way, the US government can protect everyone and treat everyone equally under the law.

There’s no legal exceptions for the Native Americans, afaik. They’re still subject to US law, just given greater autonomy.

[Infected Mushroom]

They shouldn’t be independent.

They should integrate into US society. This is what will ensure equality and fairness under the law. Tribal institutions need to supervised or entirely abolished. This way, the US government can protect everyone and treat everyone equally under the law.

There’s no legal exceptions for the Native Americans, afaik. They’re still subject to US law, just given greater autonomy.

But why should they get greater autonomy?

Is this not unfair to the average American citizen?

Should it not be balanced and equal all across?

[Heloin]

They shouldn’t be independent.

They should integrate into US society. This is what will ensure equality and fairness under the law. Tribal institutions need to supervised or entirely abolished. This way, the US government can protect everyone and treat everyone equally under the law.

I'm pretty sure abolishing the Bureau of Indian Affairs and breaking Native Treaties is a solution that will make no one happy.

[Australian rePublic]

Yea. Let's 326 tiny countries all enclaved and landlocked inside of a larger country that no longer grants them birthrite citizenship, no longer grants them military defense, are suddenly forced to print their own money, are forced to print their own passports, are forced to create their own nationwide industries, are forced to enter into diplomatic relationships, are forced to enforce border controls, etc. What could possibly go wrong?

Wouldn't it be better to give them a greater level of indipendantly, whilst relying on the federal government for free travel in and out of reserves, issuing of passports and currency, to handle their trade and diplomacy?

[Infected Mushroom]

They shouldn’t be independent.

They should integrate into US society. This is what will ensure equality and fairness under the law. Tribal institutions need to supervised or entirely abolished. This way, the US government can protect everyone and treat everyone equally under the law.

I'm pretty sure abolishing the Bureau of Indian Affairs and breaking Native Treaties is a solution that will make no one happy.

What about those who are oppressed under the tribal chiefs?

[Nakena]

They shouldn’t be independent.

They should integrate into US society. This is what will ensure equality and fairness under the law. Tribal institutions need to supervised or entirely abolished. This way, the US government can protect everyone and treat everyone equally under the law.

I'm pretty sure abolishing the Bureau of Indian Affairs and breaking Native Treaties is a solution that will make no one happy.

Wasn't it done before already once?

Actually yes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_termination_policy

and this

[Heloin]

I'm pretty sure abolishing the Bureau of Indian Affairs and breaking Native Treaties is a solution that will make no one happy.

What about those who are oppressed under the tribal chiefs?

I'm doubting you understand how Native Tribes work in the United States.

I'm pretty sure abolishing the Bureau of Indian Affairs and breaking Native Treaties is a solution that will make no one happy.

Wasn't it done before already once?

The BIA has never been abolished to my knowledge, and any time a treaty has been broken that has never been for the benefit of any Native Americans.

Actually yes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_termination_policy

My point still stands.

[Nakena]

What about those who are oppressed under the tribal chiefs?

I'm doubting you understand how Native Tribes work in the United States.

Wasn't it done before already once?

The BIA has never been abolished to my knowledge, and any time a treaty has been broken that has never been for the benefit of any Native Americans.

Actually yes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_termination_policy

My point still stands.

From what it says it wasnt exactly a good thing.

[Pasong Tirad]

You should ask them.

[Heloin]

I'm doubting you understand how Native Tribes work in the United States.


The BIA has never been abolished to my knowledge, and any time a treaty has been broken that has never been for the benefit of any Native Americans.


My point still stands.

From what it says it wasnt exactly a good thing.

I'm unsure what you're point is. A highly unpopular policy with Native Americans made to destroy tribal sovereignty and would help kick off the American Indian Movement to reverse such policies, sounds to me like you're supporting my initial point that abolishing the treaties and BIA is bad.

[Nakena]

From what it says it wasnt exactly a good thing.

I'm unsure what you're point is. A highly unpopular policy with Native Americans made to destroy tribal sovereignty and would help kick off the American Indian Movement to reverse such policies, sounds to me like you're supporting my initial point that abolishing the treaties and BIA is bad.

My point is that IM suggested an assmiliatory policy and I argued that this had been done in the past and argueably failed.

[Heloin]

I'm unsure what you're point is. A highly unpopular policy with Native Americans made to destroy tribal sovereignty and would help kick off the American Indian Movement to reverse such policies, sounds to me like you're supporting my initial point that abolishing the treaties and BIA is bad.

My point is that IM suggested an assmiliatory policy and I argued that this had been done in the past and argueably failed.

That makes a whole lot more sense now.

[Hanafuridake]

As sympathetic as I am to the First Nations, letting people have ethno-states tends not to end well.

[Rojava Free State]

They shouldn’t be independent.

They should integrate into US society. This is what will ensure equality and fairness under the law. Tribal institutions need to supervised or entirely abolished. This way, the US government can protect everyone and treat everyone equally under the law.

You know we stopped trying to destroy native American culture in the 20th century, right?

That isn't very cash money of you IM, calling for the abolition of Tribes and destruction of cultures.

[Rojava Free State]

I'm pretty sure abolishing the Bureau of Indian Affairs and breaking Native Treaties is a solution that will make no one happy.

What about those who are oppressed under the tribal chiefs?

I don't know of any native reservations run by tyrannical chiefs. The reservations aren't countries, but instead are more like a county (closest thing I can compare them too).

[Infected Mushroom]

What about those who are oppressed under the tribal chiefs?

I don't know of any native reservations run by tyrannical chiefs. The reservations aren't countries, but instead are more like a county (closest thing I can compare them too).

There's a great deal of corruption and mismanagement in tribal lands by the chiefs and their oligarchs

the best way to protect the natives from this is to completely join the US government, provided that the US government does what it can to help them transition

[Infected Mushroom]

I'm pretty sure abolishing the Bureau of Indian Affairs and breaking Native Treaties is a solution that will make no one happy.

Wasn't it done before already once?

Actually yes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_termination_policy

and this

hopefully we can do it better this time, now that we know where things went wrong and how we can systematically help them make the transition better (we have a lot more data, better technology, better management, better understanding etc)

there will need to be a few decades of adjustment but with the right government support, I think can make the transition (and they should because it promotes equality and freedom for all)

This is my hope

[Rojava Free State]

I don't know of any native reservations run by tyrannical chiefs. The reservations aren't countries, but instead are more like a county (closest thing I can compare them too).

There's a great deal of corruption and mismanagement in tribal lands by the chiefs and their oligarchs

the best way to protect the natives from this is to completely join the US government, provided that the US government does what it can to help them transition

Except they don't need to transition. They didn't exactly choose to join America, America just said "there's gold under your land, give it to use." And after disease and war killed over 90% of them, the remaining survivors ended up on reservations. There is nothing inherently wrong with native American cultures. They need more aid but they don't need to have their cultures killed. They don't need to be assimilated into America and wiped out completely.

[Heloin]

Wasn't it done before already once?

Actually yes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_termination_policy

and this

hopefully we can do it better this time, now that we know where things went wrong and how we can systematically help them make the transition better (we have a lot more data, better technology, better management, better understanding etc)

there will need to be a few decades of adjustment but with the right government support, I think can make the transition (and they should because it promotes equality and freedom for all)

This is my hope

Assimilation with a hefty dose of white man’s burden isn’t equality. It’d actually be called cultural genocide.

[Novus America]

I'm pretty sure abolishing the Bureau of Indian Affairs and breaking Native Treaties is a solution that will make no one happy.

What about those who are oppressed under the tribal chiefs?

Although corruption is a problem in some, (most have elected governments though) and should be addressed, Native Americans can leave the reservations any time they want. Most did, but those who remain presumably want to.

And we can better incorporate them into our legal structures as outlined while they still preserve their culture and identity.,

[Dahyan]

If organised in a sufficiently large and economically viable territory, then yes. Obviously, this would require extensive land redistribution and decolonisation, which is very unlikely to happen in the near future.

[Novus America]

There’s no legal exceptions for the Native Americans, afaik. They’re still subject to US law, just given greater autonomy.

But why should they get greater autonomy?

Is this not unfair to the average American citizen?

Should it not be balanced and equal all across?

Because they were there before the US formed and we agreed via agreements they could.