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What if the Islamic Revolution never happened

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Nakena
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Postby Nakena » Tue May 12, 2020 3:46 pm

Rojava Free State wrote:
Nakena wrote:
Nah it's because theres a very small, yet vocal minority of people trying to force their very specific creed upon other people here on NSG.

The last one who did that were some islamist dudes last summer.


How could I forget the islamists? Lmao talking about "dating Muslims is garam. DIE YOU!"


Also: El Amin's "Join Islam and get your own Sex Slave: Here's how"

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Tokora
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Postby Tokora » Tue May 12, 2020 3:52 pm

Was there any chance of a Tudeh Iran?

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-Astoria
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Postby -Astoria » Tue May 12, 2020 3:53 pm

Commencing the bashing circle in 3... 2... 1...


Things would've likely have continued as usual, although with more exposure of the secret police would be almost a given.

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The of Japan
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Postby The of Japan » Tue May 12, 2020 3:55 pm

Tokora wrote:Was there any chance of a Tudeh Iran?

Maybe if the 1953 coup didnt happen, otherwise not really.
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Rojava Free State
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Postby Rojava Free State » Tue May 12, 2020 4:19 pm

Imagine if the Persian Empire came back in like 500 years post apocalypse.
Rojava Free State wrote:Listen yall. I'm only gonna say it once but I want you to remember it. This ain't a world fit for good men. It seems like you gotta be monstrous just to make it. Gotta have a little bit of darkness within you just to survive. You gotta stoop low everyday it seems like. Stoop all the way down to the devil in these times. And then one day you look in the mirror and you realize that you ain't you anymore. You're just another monster, and thanks to your actions, someone else will eventually become as warped and twisted as you. Never forget that the best of us are just the best of a bad lot. Being at the top of a pile of feces doesn't make you anything but shit like the rest. Never forget that.

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Neanderthaland
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Postby Neanderthaland » Tue May 12, 2020 4:22 pm

Rojava Free State wrote:Imagine if the Persian Empire came back in like 500 years post apocalypse.

Isn't that just Salusa Secundus?
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Novus America
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Postby Novus America » Tue May 12, 2020 4:48 pm

The of Japan wrote:
Tokora wrote:Was there any chance of a Tudeh Iran?

Maybe if the 1953 coup didnt happen, otherwise not really.


Even then no. Had the coup not happened there would have been a civil war and it is highly unlikely Tudeh would win it. Tudeh has only won 1% of the seats in 1947 election and never won more than 7%. It was not support by most Iranians.

Mosaddegh had relied on the support of Kashani (mentor of Khomeini) but Kashani turned against Mossadeq after Mossadeq tried to redistribute land (land the clerics largely own) and failed to implement Islamist law. His reliance on an unstable coalition of corrupt land owning clerics and progressive secularists doomer it. After loosing support of Kashani he turned to Tudeh, but Tudeh were not support by much of the population and highly contentious.
Loosing support Mossadeq then suspended elections, jailed opponents, dissolved parliament and claimed dictatorial powers, causing much of his earlier liberal supporters to turn against him. And was the final straw for the US who had previously supported negotiations over removing Mossadeq.

That combined with British sanctions and skullduggery had plunged the country into chaos. The country was on the brink of collapse. The coup restored a semblance of order albeit under a continuation of authoritarian rule.
Last edited by Novus America on Tue May 12, 2020 5:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Novus America
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Postby Novus America » Tue May 12, 2020 4:58 pm

Had the Islamic coup not happened very likely the Middle East would be a much better place.

The Shah was not good, but he was willing to pursue reform, the Clerics turned against him (remember the Iranians Shia clerics supported the Shah in 1953) after the Shah embraced land reform. Guess who own most of the land in Iran? In addition to being religious fanatics the ruling clerics are largely corrupt and self serving, trying to protect their land holdings and money while also supporting religious fanaticism. As contradictory as this might seem at first, but it is actually quite common for religious fanatics to be corrupt and self serving.
Had the clerics not seized control Iran would probably continue as a pro Western and secular counterbalance to the Saudis, who we would not have much reason to support.

Plus with Iran keeping order in the region the US would not have to. Central Command was not formed until after the Islamist coup, before our involvement was much more minimal and indirect.

Probably no Hezbollah, no Iraq war, less Shia Sunni conflict.

The Islamist coup was a tragedy for the whole world. While the Shah was a very flawed ruler, the Islamic regime proved worse in nearly every way.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

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Shanghai industrial complex
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Postby Shanghai industrial complex » Tue May 12, 2020 7:41 pm

Then I can see the well maintained and the latest version of the F-14.Dammit.I've never seen it in my life.
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Mandicoria
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Postby Mandicoria » Tue May 12, 2020 7:44 pm

You would've probably seen a Soviet intervention due to socialist support being pretty high. Potentially another proxy war the US would wage, causing more instability in the region.
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Novus America
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Postby Novus America » Tue May 12, 2020 7:51 pm

Shanghai industrial complex wrote:Then I can see the well maintained and the latest version of the F-14.Dammit.I've never seen it in my life.


Actually you can still see many across the US in various museums and displays. Many of them have been preserved.

Iran still operates the oldest version, the F-14A. F-14Ds can be found in some US museums.
Last edited by Novus America on Tue May 12, 2020 7:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

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Green October Z
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Postby Green October Z » Tue May 12, 2020 7:52 pm

Shanghai industrial complex wrote:Then I can see the well maintained and the latest version of the F-14.Dammit.I've never seen it in my life.


That is if Iran doesn't replace them with another fighter. The only reason Iran still flies the F-14 is because they can't acquire anything better because of sanctions.
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Nakena
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Postby Nakena » Tue May 12, 2020 7:57 pm

Mandicoria wrote:You would've probably seen a Soviet intervention due to socialist support being pretty high. Potentially another proxy war the US would wage, causing more instability in the region.


That was literally the Threads timeline. Probably one of the worstest ever.

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Shanghai industrial complex
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Postby Shanghai industrial complex » Tue May 12, 2020 8:45 pm

Novus America wrote:
Shanghai industrial complex wrote:Then I can see the well maintained and the latest version of the F-14.Dammit.I've never seen it in my life.


Actually you can still see many across the US in various museums and displays. Many of them have been preserved.

Iran still operates the oldest version, the F-14A. F-14Ds can be found in some US museums.


But the plane in the museum won't be flying.What makes me angry is that the U.S. Navy actually replaced the F-14 with the F-18.We tend to call F-18 "plastic insect" here to express our regret for Tomcat.The F-14 and Su-27 are the two most beautiful aircraft.I love Tomcat, and I love Phoenix.
Ancient proverbs full of wisdom from China: Let's save those drowning fish together!
StarCraft players don't need eyes. Let's use duel to bring smile!
Use your fist to beat trickstar deck. We are all good brothers for 50 . My HP is full, how can you secKill me!

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Shanghai industrial complex
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Postby Shanghai industrial complex » Tue May 12, 2020 8:46 pm

Green October Z wrote:
Shanghai industrial complex wrote:Then I can see the well maintained and the latest version of the F-14.Dammit.I've never seen it in my life.


That is if Iran doesn't replace them with another fighter. The only reason Iran still flies the F-14 is because they can't acquire anything better because of sanctions.

Apart from the new generation of aircraft, there is no better aircraft in the West than the F-14. >:(
Ancient proverbs full of wisdom from China: Let's save those drowning fish together!
StarCraft players don't need eyes. Let's use duel to bring smile!
Use your fist to beat trickstar deck. We are all good brothers for 50 . My HP is full, how can you secKill me!

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Novus America
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Postby Novus America » Tue May 12, 2020 9:03 pm

Shanghai industrial complex wrote:
Novus America wrote:
Actually you can still see many across the US in various museums and displays. Many of them have been preserved.

Iran still operates the oldest version, the F-14A. F-14Ds can be found in some US museums.


But the plane in the museum won't be flying.What makes me angry is that the U.S. Navy actually replaced the F-14 with the F-18.We tend to call F-18 "plastic insect" here to express our regret for Tomcat.The F-14 and Su-27 are the two most beautiful aircraft.I love Tomcat, and I love Phoenix.


Your chance of seeing Iran flying one is not likely though either.

But if you want to see a real one (not flying but still cool) there are several dozen preserved in museums.

Well the F-14 was a good plane but the Super Hornet is a more flexible and easier to operate and maintain aircraft. It is not pretty but gets the job done.

Tomcat and Phoenix were cool, but technology changed.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

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-Astoria
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby -Astoria » Tue May 12, 2020 9:18 pm

Shanghai industrial complex wrote:
Green October Z wrote:
That is if Iran doesn't replace them with another fighter. The only reason Iran still flies the F-14 is because they can't acquire anything better because of sanctions.

Apart from the new generation of aircraft, there is no better aircraft in the West than the F-14. >:(

*raises eyebrows*

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Shanghai industrial complex
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Postby Shanghai industrial complex » Tue May 12, 2020 9:35 pm

-Astoria wrote:
Shanghai industrial complex wrote:Apart from the new generation of aircraft, there is no better aircraft in the West than the F-14. >:(

*raises eyebrows*

This is a bomber....ok,there is no better fighter in the West than the F-14.
Ancient proverbs full of wisdom from China: Let's save those drowning fish together!
StarCraft players don't need eyes. Let's use duel to bring smile!
Use your fist to beat trickstar deck. We are all good brothers for 50 . My HP is full, how can you secKill me!

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Mandicoria
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Postby Mandicoria » Tue May 12, 2020 10:28 pm

Nakena wrote:
Mandicoria wrote:You would've probably seen a Soviet intervention due to socialist support being pretty high. Potentially another proxy war the US would wage, causing more instability in the region.


That was literally the Threads timeline. Probably one of the worstest ever.

The scary thing was just how likely it was for it to happen too. Well that and the fact threads was brutally realistic on nuclear war :3
very bitter anarcho syndicalist with a mancrush on nestor makhno. debate me liberal. also a proud SRA member
feel free to telegram, i don't care
What if Humanity was as Important as it thought it was... But it turned out to not be a very good thing.
also i rip off warhammer, DOOM, and halo unapologetically
Highly suggest listening to this when reading anything I post about this nation.
A [1.18] civilization, according to this index.

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An Alan Smithee Nation
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Postby An Alan Smithee Nation » Tue May 12, 2020 11:53 pm

The delusion of control: you prop up a bad leader, because he is 'your guy', and end up with something much worse than you were trying to avoid.
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Sapporo Hyperspace Riftgate Laboratory
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Ex-Nation

Postby Sapporo Hyperspace Riftgate Laboratory » Tue May 12, 2020 11:59 pm

Nakena wrote:
Rojava Free State wrote:
How could I forget the islamists? Lmao talking about "dating Muslims is garam. DIE YOU!"


Also: El Amin's "Join Islam and get your own Sex Slave: Here's how"

lmao he got banned right
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Risottia
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Postby Risottia » Wed May 13, 2020 12:01 am

Sundiata wrote:
Green October Z wrote:
And religious societies are not?

I suspect not.

Curious, as there's a sort of correlation between secularity and equality...
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Nakena
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Postby Nakena » Wed May 13, 2020 12:07 am

Mandicoria wrote:
Nakena wrote:
That was literally the Threads timeline. Probably one of the worstest ever.

The scary thing was just how likely it was for it to happen too. Well that and the fact threads was brutally realistic on nuclear war :3


What I liked on it that it did also go a lot into the post-apocalyptic, era and horrors.

Sapporo Hyperspace Riftgate Laboratory wrote:
Nakena wrote:
Also: El Amin's "Join Islam and get your own Sex Slave: Here's how"

lmao he got banned right


Yes.

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Jutlop
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Postby Jutlop » Wed May 13, 2020 12:07 am

Green October Z wrote:In the late 1970s, revolution was in the air in Iran. The people were sick of the Shah and the culture of corruption that characterized the elites. The country was wealthy, but many people were poor. The country was secular, but many felt that said secularism went against their religious beliefs. We all know that in 1979 there was a revolution that saw the Shah overthrown and the monarchy replaced with a Shia Islamic theocracy. Since then, things have gotten arguably worse for Iran as the new Islamic government turned out to be even more tyrannical and insane than the previous one, and arguably even more corrupt.

However, not all Iranian revolutionaries were Islamist as during Iran's revolutionary period there were two major revolutionary factions. You had the Islamists that ultimately created the batshit insane regime that Iran has today, and you had the secular nationalists which sadly lost. How do you think things would have turned out if either the Shah remained in power or the secular nationalists won?

In my view, there is simply no practical way that the Shah could have remained in power given his extreme lack of popularity at the time. However, if the secular nationalists won the revolution then I could see things turning out to be much better for Iran. For one thing, they were a secular faction that advocated liberal democratic practices and despite opposing the Western-backed Shah, they still wanted to maintain decent relations with the West and were wary of the Soviet Union. The human rights situation in Iran wouldn't be so horrible, the economy would be much better, terrorist groups like Hezbollah or Hamas either never would have come to exist of would be much weaker, meaning that the Middle East as a whole might be less unstable.

What are your thoughts on how things could have gone differently? What implications would it have for the Middle East and the world as a whole?

Hamas and Hezbollah would have still happened although undersupplied with weapons Israel would still constantly bomb them causing more Palestinians to turn radical

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Sildorian Empire
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Postby Sildorian Empire » Wed May 13, 2020 12:10 am

Tokora wrote:Was there any chance of a Tudeh Iran?

Honestly? No. Tudeh was popular, but not as a "Government" option. It's far more likely you'd see a Mujahideen government than a Tudeh government in Iran.
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