Slapping Wrists for Treason

[Heloin]

In the CSA's defense, they make good flags. The Battle Flag of Northern Virginia, the Stars and Bars, and the Blood-Stained Banner are all some of my favorite flags from the 19th century.

The Stainless/Blood-Stained Banners look like they were made in MS Paint

Honestly that's the best take away we're going to ever get on the American Civil War. It's over people we can't get better then that.

[Joohan]

So practically the entire South? Or, about 40% of the national population? The southern leaders who succeeded were voted into office and supported by the majority of the population. It's thought that nearly 800,000 men served in the confederate Army, would those men who willingly volunteered or fulfilled their duties as drafties be punished too? How about the families who supported their men in the fighting by buying war bonds, traveling with them to act as nurses on the battlefields, or cooked their meals? How about the families who opened up their homes to act as camps and hospitals? Nearly everyone was complicit.

Nearly everyone was complicit, yes, that is the point. There were many people who were not complicit. Who not only did not actively support the Confederacy, but actively supported the Union. They existed as proof that one could be a good Southerner during the Civil War. They could have joined the Union Army, bought Union bonds, disrupted the CSA behind their lines, acted as nurses and cooks for the Union, opened up their homes as Union camps and hospitals, resisted Confederate drafts, refused to vote for pro-confederate politicians.

Yeah they could have - but they didn't. Now what? You gonna mass punish 40% of the country, more than what they already had been?

I get it, you hate racists - but perhaps you should seek to be better than them? You want these people to be empathetic towards their fellow man, then show them how, by giving them that same empathy. Rehabilitation, not retribution!

Reconstruction was rehabilitation, not retribution. Retribution would be enslaving all the Southern whites.[/quote]

Exactly. Reconstruction, as conceived by Lincoln and Johnson was the best course of action. Compassion for your fellow Americans. That you and the OP both wish that our ancestors had been more brutal and vicious is what many of us are decrying as inhuman.

[Grenartia]

I never said they weren't human. I also did not say that "literally two minutes ago", even when you posted that.

If you proudly commit treason, you forfeit your property rights. Property rights are not human rights.

You're right, you didn't say they weren't human, you just want that we'd treated them like they weren't. Forefeit property rights is very banal way of hiding what Sherman's march to sea was: whole towns and cities burned to the ground, people's livelihood's turned to ash because of where they lived. Farmers robbed of their livestock and crops, their fields burned and their animals slaughtered. The common man forced into destitution and death.

War is hell. And if the Confederates didn't want to risk suffering that fate, they should have thought about that before starting the War of Southern Aggression.

And you wished that he'd done worse. Why not just say it: you wish we would have genocided the South.

Because I don't wish that at all. I wish the South would've fucking abolished slavery.

[Page]

Southerners who honor the Confederacy have negative honor.

In the CSA's defense, they make good flags. The Battle Flag of Northern Virginia, the Stars and Bars, and the Blood-Stained Banner are all some of my favorite flags from the 19th century.

North Korea has a very aesthetically appealing flag too, though that only goes so far to defend them.

[Cisairse]

Wait, how does Pottawatomie make him a bad person?

John Brown is a hero and a martyr.

Because he dragged 5 unarmed people out of their homes at night and murdered them. I know they were slavers, but he still murdered several unarmed people. He’s not necessarily a bad person, and I agree with what he stood for, but I also think he wasn’t as good of a person as lots of people made him out to be.

Owning slaves is an aggressive action. Brown was acting defensively, and thus is justified.

[Salus Maior]

For all intents and purposes, Lee was a great general and, if you ask me, the only "good" Confederate political figure. He didn't fight for slavery, he fought for Virginia. That's admirable. The CSA as a whole was still pretty fucked, though.

Also, "Leeaboo". I'm stealing this.

Except it's not admirable.

People use the same shit argument for Rommel. "He didn't fight for the Nazis, he fought for Germany!" But that's a crock. It doesn't matter what he was metaphorically fighting for, his fighting aided the most evil regime in human history.

Lee chose his state over his country. Lee chose his state over what was morally right. Lee chose his state over the rule of law. Lee sent his countrymen to kill his countrymen to preserve an unrecognized and illegal nation that was founded for the sole purpose of preserving the institution of slavery. Fuck Lee.

To be fair to Lee, on his deathbed he didn't want people to continue to want secession and idolize the Confederacy. He wanted them to leave the war behind.

I'm not a Lee fan, but he has complicated motivations.

[Joohan]

Because I don't wish that at all. I wish the South would've fucking abolished slavery.

Well then I have great news, they did! Slavery was eventually abolished. Now, please, stop trying to justify any revenge fantasies.

[Salus Maior]

I never said they weren't human. I also did not say that "literally two minutes ago", even when you posted that.

If you proudly commit treason, you forfeit your property rights. Property rights are not human rights.

You're right, you didn't say they weren't human, you just want that we'd treated them like they weren't. Forefeit property rights is very banal way of hiding what Sherman's march to sea was: whole towns and cities burned to the ground, people's livelihood's turned to ash because of where they lived. Farmers robbed of their livestock and crops, their fields burned and their animals slaughtered. The common man forced into destitution and death.

And you wished that he'd done worse. Why not just say it: you wish we would have genocided the South.

To be honest, I don't think anything short of breaking the South's will to fight in that way would have ended the war.

[Trollzyn the Infinite]

I never said they weren't human. I also did not say that "literally two minutes ago", even when you posted that.

If you proudly commit treason, you forfeit your property rights. Property rights are not human rights.

You're right, you didn't say they weren't human, you just want that we'd treated them like they weren't. Forefeit property rights is very banal way of hiding what Sherman's march to sea was: whole towns and cities burned to the ground, people's livelihood's turned to ash because of where they lived. Farmers robbed of their livestock and crops, their fields burned and their animals slaughtered. The common man forced into destitution and death.

And you wished that he'd done worse. Why not just say it: you wish we would have genocided the South.

All to break the back of the Southern economy and force them to surrender. And it worked. It was entirely justified. You can sit there and convince yourself it wasn't, but you'll still be wrong. Or do you believe the goal was to starve Georgians to death? Drive them into crippling poverty and debt? Destroy Georgia beyond repair? Because it wasn't. The South would be reclaimed by the Union, along with everyone in it. Restitution and recompense would follow through Reconstruction. This was always the intention. No one was being left to suffer.

[Cisairse]

Because I don't wish that at all. I wish the South would've fucking abolished slavery.

Well then I have great news, they did! Slavery was eventually abolished. Now, please, stop trying to justify any revenge fantasies.

By the North.

Not by the South.

[Joohan]

In the CSA's defense, they make good flags. The Battle Flag of Northern Virginia, the Stars and Bars, and the Blood-Stained Banner are all some of my favorite flags from the 19th century.

North Korea has a very aesthetically appealing flag too, though that only goes so far to defend them.

To be fair, aesthetics are like 90% of the battle.

[Grenartia]

In the CSA's defense, they make good flags. The Battle Flag of Northern Virginia, the Stars and Bars, and the Blood-Stained Banner are all some of my favorite flags from the 19th century.

The Stainless/Blood-Stained Banners look like they were made in MS Paint

They might as well have been.

Nearly everyone was complicit, yes, that is the point. There were many people who were not complicit. Who not only did not actively support the Confederacy, but actively supported the Union. They existed as proof that one could be a good Southerner during the Civil War. They could have joined the Union Army, bought Union bonds, disrupted the CSA behind their lines, acted as nurses and cooks for the Union, opened up their homes as Union camps and hospitals, resisted Confederate drafts, refused to vote for pro-confederate politicians.

Yeah they could have - but they didn't. Now what? You gonna mass punish 40% of the country,

At what point in mass criminal activity does the number of people committing a crime mean they should no longer be punished for that crime? If 40% of the country kills one other person at the same time, does that mean that murder should suddenly cease being a crime?

more than what they already had been?

What they had already faced was a comparative slap on the wrist.

Reconstruction was rehabilitation, not retribution. Retribution would be enslaving all the Southern whites.

Exactly. Reconstruction, as conceived by Lincoln and Johnson was the best course of action. Compassion for your fellow Americans. That you and the OP both wish that our ancestors had been more brutal and vicious is what many of us are decrying as inhuman.

Its not inhuman to say that more of the South's warmaking ability should have been destroyed, especially as that means a swifter end to a brutal and unnecessary war. And Reconstruction was really a half-measure compared to what should have happened.

[Ethel mermania]

Because he dragged 5 unarmed people out of their homes at night and murdered them. I know they were slavers, but he still murdered several unarmed people. He’s not necessarily a bad person, and I agree with what he stood for, but I also think he wasn’t as good of a person as lots of people made him out to be.

Owning slaves is an aggressive action. Brown was acting defensively, and thus is justified.

John brown was never a slave. Harpers ferry was an aggressive action. The reaction to the raid and support brown received in the north, is one of things that helped convince the southerners sucession was their only recourse

[Cisairse]

I never said they weren't human. I also did not say that "literally two minutes ago", even when you posted that.

If you proudly commit treason, you forfeit your property rights. Property rights are not human rights.

You're right, you didn't say they weren't human, you just want that we'd treated them like they weren't. Forefeit property rights is very banal way of hiding what Sherman's march to sea was: whole towns and cities burned to the ground, people's livelihood's turned to ash because of where they lived. Farmers robbed of their livestock and crops, their fields burned and their animals slaughtered. The common man forced into destitution and death.

And you wished that he'd done worse. Why not just say it: you wish we would have genocided the South.

Having your livelihood turned to ash is still a better outcome than being a literal slave.

The idea that the March to the Sea wasn't justified is horrible.

[Trollzyn the Infinite]

Except it's not admirable.

People use the same shit argument for Rommel. "He didn't fight for the Nazis, he fought for Germany!" But that's a crock. It doesn't matter what he was metaphorically fighting for, his fighting aided the most evil regime in human history.

Lee chose his state over his country. Lee chose his state over what was morally right. Lee chose his state over the rule of law. Lee sent his countrymen to kill his countrymen to preserve an unrecognized and illegal nation that was founded for the sole purpose of preserving the institution of slavery. Fuck Lee.

To be fair to Lee, on his deathbed he didn't want people to continue to want secession and idolize the Confederacy. He wanted them to leave the war behind.

I'm not a Lee fan, but he has complicated motivations.

Fair. He gets points for that.

Because I don't wish that at all. I wish the South would've fucking abolished slavery.

Well then I have great news, they did! Slavery was eventually abolished. Now, please, stop trying to justify any revenge fantasies.

No, they didn't. They fought a war to try and prevent it from being abolished. They spilled the blood of their countrymen to keep it from being abolished.

The North abolished it. Lincoln abolished it. And it went into effect in the South the minute the war ended.

[Trollzyn the Infinite]

Owning slaves is an aggressive action. Brown was acting defensively, and thus is justified.

John brown was never a slave. Harpers ferry was an aggressive action. The reaction to the raid and support brown received in the north, is one of things that helped convince the southerners sucession was their only recourse

*helped convince rich plantation owners they needed to start a war to keep their free labor

[Trollzyn the Infinite]

You're right, you didn't say they weren't human, you just want that we'd treated them like they weren't. Forefeit property rights is very banal way of hiding what Sherman's march to sea was: whole towns and cities burned to the ground, people's livelihood's turned to ash because of where they lived. Farmers robbed of their livestock and crops, their fields burned and their animals slaughtered. The common man forced into destitution and death.

And you wished that he'd done worse. Why not just say it: you wish we would have genocided the South.

Having your livelihood turned to ash is still a better outcome than being a literal slave.

The idea that the March to the Sea wasn't justified is horrible.

I, for one, would rather loser my possessions than my life or freedom. Shocking as that concept may seem to some.

[Cisairse]

Owning slaves is an aggressive action. Brown was acting defensively, and thus is justified.

John brown was never a slave.

And?

Harpers ferry was an aggressive action. The reaction to the raid and support brown received in the north, is one of things that helped convince the southerners sucession was their only recourse

Which led, in a roundabout kinda way, to abolition.

[Salus Maior]

At what point in mass criminal activity does the number of people committing a crime mean they should no longer be punished for that crime? If 40% of the country kills one other person at the same time, does that mean that murder should suddenly cease being a crime?

It ceases to be practical to pursue punishing it when it gets widespread enough.

When you're trying to reunify the country, which was the primary goal of the North by the way, in the end you need to be able to let things go instead of punishing almost an entire culture.

It's not a fun thought, but that's how it is with these things. The same thing happened in Rwanda; most people who participated in the genocide have not been punished, because most of the population mobilized to do it. There's a point where it just can't feasibly be done.

[Grenartia]

You're right, you didn't say they weren't human, you just want that we'd treated them like they weren't. Forefeit property rights is very banal way of hiding what Sherman's march to sea was: whole towns and cities burned to the ground, people's livelihood's turned to ash because of where they lived. Farmers robbed of their livestock and crops, their fields burned and their animals slaughtered. The common man forced into destitution and death.

And you wished that he'd done worse. Why not just say it: you wish we would have genocided the South.

All to break the back of the Southern economy and force them to surrender. And it worked. It was entirely justified. You can sit there and convince yourself it wasn't, but you'll still be wrong. Or do you believe the goal was to starve Georgians to death? Drive them into crippling poverty and debt? Destroy Georgia beyond repair? Because it wasn't. The South would be reclaimed by the Union, along with everyone in it. Restitution and recompense would follow through Reconstruction. This was always the intention. No one was being left to suffer.

This. Its pretty fucking dishonest to pretend otherwise, as Joohan does.

[Trollzyn the Infinite]

At what point in mass criminal activity does the number of people committing a crime mean they should no longer be punished for that crime? If 40% of the country kills one other person at the same time, does that mean that murder should suddenly cease being a crime?

It ceases to be practical to pursue punishing it when it gets widespread enough.

When you're trying to reunify the country, which was the primary goal of the North by the way, in the end you need to be able to let things go instead of punishing almost an entire culture.

It's not a fun thought, but that's how it is with these things. The same thing happened in Rwanda; most people who participated in the genocide have not been punished, because most of the population mobilized to do it. There's a point where it just can't feasibly be done.

Yet we could have very easily hung the Confederate leaders that started the war. Or at least keep them imprisoned or prevent them from pursuing politics again.

[Grenartia]

Owning slaves is an aggressive action. Brown was acting defensively, and thus is justified.

John brown was never a slave. Harpers ferry was an aggressive action. The reaction to the raid and support brown received in the north, is one of things that helped convince the southerners sucession was their only recourse

A justified aggressive action. You have to admire the man, for selflessly giving up his only life to defend someone elses' freedom from a horrendous fate he would never know.

[New Decandsor]

If there wasn't reconciliation, then it's almost a guarantee there would've been another conflict that would've ended up with hundreds, if not thousands, of more Americans dead. And on top of that, the cultural and racial tensions most likely would be significantly worse in present day in the South, not to mention it would probably still be in horrible shape economically. Reconstruction wasn't perfect, but had pure retribution been the way, things would have turned out much worse. On another note, getting the South back on its feet and integrated back into the United States was strategically a smart decision in the long term.

[Grenartia]

At what point in mass criminal activity does the number of people committing a crime mean they should no longer be punished for that crime? If 40% of the country kills one other person at the same time, does that mean that murder should suddenly cease being a crime?

It ceases to be practical to pursue punishing it when it gets widespread enough.

When you're trying to reunify the country, which was the primary goal of the North by the way, in the end you need to be able to let things go instead of punishing almost an entire culture.

It's not a fun thought, but that's how it is with these things. The same thing happened in Rwanda; most people who participated in the genocide have not been punished, because most of the population mobilized to do it. There's a point where it just can't feasibly be done.

I understand the logic, but I refuse to validate it.

[Heloin]

Owning slaves is an aggressive action. Brown was acting defensively, and thus is justified.

John brown was never a slave. Harpers ferry was an aggressive action. The reaction to the raid and support brown received in the north, is one of things that helped convince the southerners sucession was their only recourse

The American Civil war had already started in Kansas, Harper's Ferry just changed when succession would occur. If he succeed the Civil war would have started then, if it never happened then the civil war would have started a few months or a year later.