Capitalism vs Communism dosnt matter

[Bendira]

Capitalism and Communism are merely economic systems, what really matters is the PEOPLE versus the STATE. Some communists argue that capitalism is always fascistic, even if theirs not a government, because corporations will supposibly control all of the power. This is a very half is glass full view of anarcho/minarcho-capitalism. The same could be said about Communism, in which it has a clear fascistic nature to it as well because of you oweing everything to your Commune, who essentially becomes your "government". Honestly, both ways of looking at the economics of it are half is glass full. Im willing to say that there really ISNT a perfect economic system out there, and there isnt truly a perfect form on government out there either. But what I am saying is that no matter what your economic beliefs are, the real enemy is the STATE. Either restrict the state or abolish it all together. Thats what can TRULY free us all.

[Tubbsalot]

Yes, free us into a poverty-stricken chaotic craphole. Hooray for the destruction of the state.

[Pythria]

Capitalism and Communism are merely economic systems, what really matters is the PEOPLE versus the STATE. Some communists argue that capitalism is always fascistic, even if theirs not a government, because corporations will supposedly control all of the power. This is a very half is glass full view of anarcho/minarcho-capitalism. The same could be said about Communism, in which it has a clear fascistic nature to it as well because of you owing everything to your Commune, who essentially becomes your "government". Honestly, both ways of looking at the economics of it are half is glass full. Im willing to say that there really ISN'T a perfect economic system out there, and there isn't truly a perfect form on government out there either. But what I am saying is that no matter what your economic beliefs are, the real enemy is the STATE. Either restrict the state or abolish it all together. That's what can TRULY free us all.

The enemy can be the state, and often is. However, capitalism vs socialism/communism does matter. I also disagree with you where you say that there is no perfect economic system. Pure capitalism is perfect. The reason nobody has seen this perfection is that whenever someone tries to create it (and this has only ever happened in the US), the liberals dilute it with socialist programs like welfare and nationalizing of industry.

[Avenio]

The enemy can be the state, and often is. However, capitalism vs socialism/communism does matter. I also disagree with you where you say that there is no perfect economic system. Pure capitalism is perfect. The reason nobody has seen this perfection is that whenever someone tries to create it (and this has only ever happened in the US), the liberals dilute it with socialist programs like welfare and nationalizing of industry.

When you can prove this to us, do make a thread about it. I'm sure it'll be front page news. Until then, I'll be waiting here, enjoying quality healthcare that is available to all, social services that support every citizen and a first world lifestyle, all thanks to the 'dilution' of capitalism carried out by 'socialists' and 'liberals' like Tommy Douglas and Pierre Trudeau.

EDIT: Removed redundancy.

[Self--Esteem]

Capitalism and Communism are merely economic systems, what really matters is the PEOPLE versus the STATE. Some communists argue that capitalism is always fascistic, even if theirs not a government, because corporations will supposedly control all of the power. This is a very half is glass full view of anarcho/minarcho-capitalism. The same could be said about Communism, in which it has a clear fascistic nature to it as well because of you owing everything to your Commune, who essentially becomes your "government". Honestly, both ways of looking at the economics of it are half is glass full. Im willing to say that there really ISN'T a perfect economic system out there, and there isn't truly a perfect form on government out there either. But what I am saying is that no matter what your economic beliefs are, the real enemy is the STATE. Either restrict the state or abolish it all together. That's what can TRULY free us all.

The enemy can be the state, and often is. However, capitalism vs socialism/communism does matter. I also disagree with you where you say that there is no perfect economic system. Pure capitalism is perfect. The reason nobody has seen this perfection is that whenever someone tries to create it (and this has only ever happened in the US), the liberals dilute it with socialist programs like welfare and nationalizing of industry.

I could not agree more.

Capitalism VS Socialism/Communism does matter. And so does authoritarian VS Laissez-Faire economics.

I also agree that this government control over the market has to be put to an end. Not only is it pure hypocrisy ("we bail out company A but not company B") but also extremely dangerous for business. Antitrust laws are unnecessary and the government should not try to bust so called "monopolies" (which are not true monopolies at all, since such could only arise through government manipulation).

[Ifreann]

I'm sure this will put an end to all economic debate forever.

[DaWoad]

If one wants to live in anything like a modern state where one isn't afraid for their lives on a daily basis then one needs a government.

[DaWoad]

The enemy can be the state, and often is. However, capitalism vs socialism/communism does matter. I also disagree with you where you say that there is no perfect economic system. Pure capitalism is perfect. The reason nobody has seen this perfection is that whenever someone tries to create it (and this has only ever happened in the US), the liberals dilute it with socialist programs like welfare and nationalizing of industry.

When you can prove this to us, do make a thread about it. I'm sure it'll be front page news. Until then, I'll be waiting here, enjoying quality healthcare that is available to all, social services that support every citizen and a first world lifestyle, all thanks to the 'dilution' of capitalism carried out by 'socialists' and 'liberals' like Tommy Douglas and Pierre Trudeau.

EDIT: Removed redundancy.

this

[Bafuria]

You can have communism in a capitalist economy (communes and cooperatives), but you can't have capitalism in a communist economy.

That's why I'm in favor of a capitalist economy.

[Sagatagan]

Capitalism and Communism are merely economic systems, what really matters is the PEOPLE versus the STATE. Some communists argue that capitalism is always fascistic, even if theirs not a government, because corporations will supposibly control all of the power. This is a very half is glass full view of anarcho/minarcho-capitalism. The same could be said about Communism, in which it has a clear fascistic nature to it as well because of you oweing everything to your Commune, who essentially becomes your "government". Honestly, both ways of looking at the economics of it are half is glass full. Im willing to say that there really ISNT a perfect economic system out there, and there isnt truly a perfect form on government out there either. But what I am saying is that no matter what your economic beliefs are, the real enemy is the STATE. Either restrict the state or abolish it all together. Thats what can TRULY free us all.

Ah, an ancap. I used to be one, before I discovered philosophy and sociology, and went mutualist (the original market anarchism). The State exists for the explicit purpose of defending capitalist property and maintaining the class structure. Despite some fun little social reforms, its essential purpose as a monopoly of violence is the maintenance of the power of the powerful. Moreover, capitalist property requires the State to defend it, even if it is a mercenary state. I respect that the ancaps probably believe they are in favor in pluralistic anarchism, but they fail to understand that the very idea of property between capitalist and syndicalist/mutualist/socialist/communist societies is fundamentally different, and the two property/possession systems cannot coexist in a single society.

[Waideland]

The whole ideal of communism is nothing more then a reflection of the desire that people who fail at life have to drag everyone else down with them. Sure there's a lack of compassion in capitalism, and some people that weren't born with the tools to survive fall through the cracks, but it's a lot easier to solve problems affecting a few outcasts, then to perfectly balance government control of all economic matters. The majority of people who support communism are able-bodied, intelligent individuals, that simply don't like the idea that one must go above and beyond the amount of work required for survival, in order to get everything they want in life. They think if we turned communist today, that all those evil rich people would just divide their fortunes into "reasonable" amounts and share so everyone would be happier, and the rich people would be happy enough, but it just doesn't work that way in practice.

[South Norwega]

Yes, free us into a poverty-stricken chaotic craphole. Hooray for the destruction of the state.

Hoorah indeed. I best make some tea for the welcoming party.

I'm sure this will put an end to all economic debate forever.

Of course it will. One cannot dispute the OP.

If one wants to live in anything like a modern state where one isn't afraid for their lives on a daily basis then one needs a government.

Or live with your family on some secluded island fortress.

[Kamsaki]

But what I am saying is that no matter what your economic beliefs are, the real enemy is the STATE.

But the State is just a reflection of a people's responsibility towards self-governance. It wouldn't be there if people took the decision to either dissolve it, leave or revolt, because without anyone to govern, the state would just collapse.

It's ridiculous to assume that the State has position as an enemy in and of itself. The enemy, if there is one, must be those individuals who twist the state to manipulate the vulnerable, and such people won't simply stop manipulating if we presume that the institutions of power are what are responsible for the denial of liberty.

Co-operative opposition to the state means challenging its rulings when such are oppressive, even those formed through process of law or democracy, but acknowledging one's own role in the state being as it is. Or, of course, just leaving, which is always an option.

[Bendira]

Ah, an ancap. I used to be one, before I discovered philosophy and sociology, and went mutualist (the original market anarchism). The State exists for the explicit purpose of defending capitalist property and maintaining the class structure. Despite some fun little social reforms, its essential purpose as a monopoly of violence is the maintenance of the power of the powerful. Moreover, capitalist property requires the State to defend it, even if it is a mercenary state. I respect that the ancaps probably believe they are in favor in pluralistic anarchism, but they fail to understand that the very idea of property between capitalist and syndicalist/mutualist/socialist/communist societies is fundamentally different, and the two property/possession systems cannot coexist in a single society.

Im not a typical Ancap. I believe many forms of economic systems could live within one "nation" or "country". Im not opposed to communism, as long as it dosnt have a state. I disagree with Misean economics on a lot of things. Frankly I dont think any school of thought in economics can predict human behavior. No one umbrella economic system will make everybody happy. Because of this, if we removed states the chances for wars would durastically decrease. If there is no war, there would be no reason why communists, capitalists, mutualists or anybody else couldnt exist together. Under this, everybody could choose their own personally economic beliefs, and move to that area. If your a collectivist and are willing to live in a society that operate like that, you can move to a commune. If you are more competitive and ambitious, you could move to an anarcho-capitalist area. The same can be said for any economic system, provided there isnt any state involvement.

[Panzerjaeger]

Yes, free us into a poverty-stricken chaotic craphole. Hooray for the destruction of the state.

Indeed smash the State so we can go back to Feudalism! Huzzah for Serfdom!

[Bendira]

Yes, free us into a poverty-stricken chaotic craphole. Hooray for the destruction of the state.

Indeed smash the State so we can go back to Feudalism! Huzzah for Serfdom!

This would only happen if we were still a religous un-educated un-enlightened world.

[Jello Biafra]

the real enemy is the STATE. Either restrict the state or abolish it all together. Thats what can TRULY free us all.

Indeed.
Smash the state! Long live communism!

[Bendira]

Pure capitalism is perfect.

No its not. Pure Capitalism is a very cold/rational system that has the ability to oppress some members of society, and cause pain and suffering. I personally am a Capitalist because I feel the pro's of Capitalism outway the cons for ME. But who is to say just because its best for ME that its best for everybody? My definition of a perfect economic system would be one where EVERYBODY benefits, EVERYBODY makes wealth and EVERYBODY is accountable for their own actions and decisions. No such system exists. There is no perfect economic system. The sooner we all can grow up and admit that economics is based on personal preference, the sooner we can all unite under one flag to abolish the state and give everybody rights to SELF DETERMINATION.

[Self--Esteem]

Yes, free us into a poverty-stricken chaotic craphole. Hooray for the destruction of the state.

Indeed smash the State so we can go back to Feudalism! Huzzah for Serfdom!

This would only happen if we were still a religous un-educated un-enlightened world.

Umm ... so it could happen everyday?

[North Wiedna]

Get a blog.

[Sagatagan]

Ah, an ancap. I used to be one, before I discovered philosophy and sociology, and went mutualist (the original market anarchism). The State exists for the explicit purpose of defending capitalist property and maintaining the class structure. Despite some fun little social reforms, its essential purpose as a monopoly of violence is the maintenance of the power of the powerful. Moreover, capitalist property requires the State to defend it, even if it is a mercenary state. I respect that the ancaps probably believe they are in favor in pluralistic anarchism, but they fail to understand that the very idea of property between capitalist and syndicalist/mutualist/socialist/communist societies is fundamentally different, and the two property/possession systems cannot coexist in a single society.

Im not a typical Ancap. I believe many forms of economic systems could live within one "nation" or "country". Im not opposed to communism, as long as it dosnt have a state. I disagree with Misean economics on a lot of things. Frankly I dont think any school of thought in economics can predict human behavior. No one umbrella economic system will make everybody happy. Because of this, if we removed states the chances for wars would durastically decrease. If there is no war, there would be no reason why communists, capitalists, mutualists or anybody else couldnt exist together. Under this, everybody could choose their own personally economic beliefs, and move to that area. If your a collectivist and are willing to live in a society that operate like that, you can move to a commune. If you are more competitive and ambitious, you could move to an anarcho-capitalist area. The same can be said for any economic system, provided there isnt any state involvement.

Not so much. You seem to be mistaking markets and exchange with capitalism. Capitalism, as a system of property, cannot coexist with communism and mutualism, because the property rights of the two systems contradict one another. This isn't a clash about what should be done with property. It's about who has the right to productive property.

[Cobhanglica]

The state is not the enemy, per se. We need the state to uphold order and defend the people not only from one another (suppressing crime), but also against outside threats. Only when it becomes a force for controlling and subjugating the people does the state become the enemy.

[Conserative Morality]

Uhu. You enjoy your broken wasteland, I'll enjoy my order-enforcing, freedom ensured state.

[Georgism]

tl; dr

I don't think freedom is any more than a means to an end. If freedom conflicts with those ends then it should be tailored to fit.

The state is the means to tailor freedom to allow it to perform its primary function

[North Suran]

I also disagree with you where you say that there is no perfect economic system. Pure capitalism is perfect. The reason nobody has seen this perfection is that whenever someone tries to create it (and this has only ever happened in the US), the liberals dilute it with socialist programs like welfare and nationalizing of industry.

Oh yes. Because everyone remembers what a Utopian paradise Edwardian England was, before those filthy Liberals and Labourites brought in their welfare reforms.

Wait a sec...is that an elephant over there? And why is "Majority of working class living in poverty" stamped on its chest? And why is it dying of tuberculosis?