Ban urban vehicles

[Green October Z]

Considering that I live in a fairly high crime city, I would not feel safe riding the bus. Especially since I know several people that have been mugged and assaulted on them. My car may be kind of old, but it is reliable, convenient, and safe.

[Cannot think of a name]

Considering that I live in a fairly high crime city, I would not feel safe riding the bus. Especially since I know several people that have been mugged and assaulted on them. My car may be kind of old, but it is reliable, convenient, and safe.

Until it gets stolen. Or the battery stolen...weird persistent crime in my friend's neighborhood.

[Greed and Death]

Mass transit is a petri dish, ban mass transit and become a car centered society.

[Green October Z]

Considering that I live in a fairly high crime city, I would not feel safe riding the bus. Especially since I know several people that have been mugged and assaulted on them. My car may be kind of old, but it is reliable, convenient, and safe.

Until it gets stolen. Or the battery stolen...weird persistent crime in my friend's neighborhood.

Still beats getting your ass kicked on the bus... or raped on the bus as was the case for my room mate's sister.

[Novus America]

Yes. Urban traffic congestion has gone down during the pandemic. Your 2016 data is completely irrelevant to the pandemic situation.

Homie, you know we're talking about after the pandemic...right?

Moving the goalposts. You claimed this pandemic has not reduced urban congestion using 2016 data. That was ridiculous.

Yes. 2016 was before the pandemic. The pandemic, if it ends any time soon will, probably will not result in things suddenly returning to 2016.

Many businesses that closed will never reopen. Many people teleworking might never return to normal work. Many people will remain scared of public transportation because it spreads disease, and so on.

Assuming this is both a temporary aberration with no long term impacts AND that we can continue the pollution reductions after things return to “normal” (they will not return to things as they were) is contradictory and unsupported.

[Cannot think of a name]

Until it gets stolen. Or the battery stolen...weird persistent crime in my friend's neighborhood.

Still beats getting your ass kicked on the bus... or raped on the bus as was the case for my room mate's sister.

This sounds like your city has some rather systemic issues that transportation is not going to address.

[Green October Z]

Still beats getting your ass kicked on the bus... or raped on the bus as was the case for my room mate's sister.

This sounds like your city has some rather systemic issues that transportation is not going to address.

Yep. Even putting that aside, a car is far more convenient.

[Cannot think of a name]

Homie, you know we're talking about after the pandemic...right?

Moving the goalposts. You claimed this pandemic has not reduced urban congestion using 2016 data. That was ridiculous.

No I didn't.

Yes. 2016 was before the pandemic. The pandemic, if it ends any time soon will, probably will not result in things suddenly returning to 2016.

Many businesses that closed will never reopen. Many people teleworking might never return to normal work. Many people will remain scared of public transportation because it spreads disease, and so on.

Assuming this is both a temporary aberration with no long term impacts AND that we can continue the pollution reductions after things return to “normal” (they will not return to things as they were) is contradictory and unsupported.

You really need to go back and read at least the first page of this thread, man. You got way off track and are just confusing yourself at this point. You don't understand the premise or where the discussion is centered or ground that's already covered. Take a breath, go back, catch up with the rest of the class.

[Cannot think of a name]

Still beats getting your ass kicked on the bus... or raped on the bus as was the case for my room mate's sister.

This sounds like your city has some rather systemic issues that transportation is not going to address.

The city was built around making the car convenient.

[Ethel mermania]

No, not everyone can use public transportation for all tasks. Super marketing, carrying large loads, travel that is not to and from the hub.

Auto free area's in center cities makes some sense, just banning cars doesnt.

Actually, supermarketing can be done without cars: just switch to delivery services. You either order online and have it delivered OR you can go to the shop with public transportation, order on the place, and go back with public transportation while your groceries get delivered. (I also go to the supermarket on foot or with the tram, usually, but that limits the amount I can carry to 6-8 bags).
As for travel that's not to-and-from the hub, it's an issue of capillarity. The point is that LPT is never going to be profitable anyway and will always have to be fueled by the public coffers at least in part, so one could also give in and go for maximum capillarity of the service without worrying about the profitability of the peripheral lines. You don't get a profit but you get a bonus in terms of service and cleaner air.

Cost does come into play, I am here in nyc, we spend billions on mass transit and we need to spend billions more, that money just doesnt exist. How much are you willing to pay per passenger, and how long should that trip take come into play. Even during rush hour, if I visit a friend's on long island round trip transport hitting each train right on time take 2 hours each way. During rush hour it's a 1 hour drive, outside of rush hour 45 minutes.

As to shopping, We are feeding a family of 4, and tbh, I like picking out the fresh and frozen food I am buying, and when buying fresh you want to get it into some sort of refrigeration as soon as possible, picking out and waiting for delivery means the food is sitting out from the time picked to delivery, which could be hours. Throwing it into a car trunk after purchase. I have it all put away in 15 minutes from check out.

[Novus America]

Moving the goalposts. You claimed this pandemic has not reduced urban congestion using 2016 data. That was ridiculous.

No I didn't.

Yes. 2016 was before the pandemic. The pandemic, if it ends any time soon will, probably will not result in things suddenly returning to 2016.

Many businesses that closed will never reopen. Many people teleworking might never return to normal work. Many people will remain scared of public transportation because it spreads disease, and so on.

Assuming this is both a temporary aberration with no long term impacts AND that we can continue the pollution reductions after things return to “normal” (they will not return to things as they were) is contradictory and unsupported.

You really need to go back and read at least the first page of this thread, man. You got way off track and are just confusing yourself at this point. You don't understand the premise or where the discussion is centered or ground that's already covered. Take a breath, go back, catch up with the rest of the class.

You are making claims using 2016 data. And assuming absent the pandemic such trends would continue. Great in your alternate history maybe but we live in this reality not your alternate history. The pandemic did actually happen, and it very likely will have a massive long term impact.

Absent the pandemic is irrelevant because the pandemic did happen and much of what it did is not going away anytime soon and may be permanent.

We are almost certain to see a permanent increase in telework.
And fewer people utilizing public transport is likely to continue.

[Novus America]

Actually, supermarketing can be done without cars: just switch to delivery services. You either order online and have it delivered OR you can go to the shop with public transportation, order on the place, and go back with public transportation while your groceries get delivered. (I also go to the supermarket on foot or with the tram, usually, but that limits the amount I can carry to 6-8 bags).
As for travel that's not to-and-from the hub, it's an issue of capillarity. The point is that LPT is never going to be profitable anyway and will always have to be fueled by the public coffers at least in part, so one could also give in and go for maximum capillarity of the service without worrying about the profitability of the peripheral lines. You don't get a profit but you get a bonus in terms of service and cleaner air.

Cost does come into play, I am here in nyc, we spend billions on mass transit and we need to spend billions more, that money just doesnt exist. How much are you willing to pay per passenger, and how long should that trip take come into play. Even during rush hour, if I visit a friend's on long island round trip transport hitting each train right on time take 2 hours each way. During rush hour it's a 1 hour drive, outside of rush hour 45 minutes.

As to shopping, We are feeding a family of 4, and tbh, I like picking out the fresh and frozen food I am buying, and when buying fresh you want to get it into some sort of refrigeration as soon as possible, picking out and waiting for delivery means the food is sitting out from the time picked to delivery, which could be hours. Throwing it into a car trunk after purchase. I have it all put away in 15 minutes from check out.

Besides an underutilized bus actually produces more pollution than a car using the same form of propulsion.
I need to find the exact article but there are bus lines in Baltimore city where a study found buying everyone who used that bus a car would actually save money AND pollute less.

[Cannot think of a name]

No I didn't.

You really need to go back and read at least the first page of this thread, man. You got way off track and are just confusing yourself at this point. You don't understand the premise or where the discussion is centered or ground that's already covered. Take a breath, go back, catch up with the rest of the class.

You are making claims using 2016 data. And assuming absent the pandemic such trends would continue. Great in your alternate history maybe but we live in this reality not your alternate history. The pandemic did actually happen, and it very likely will have a massive long term impact.

Absent the pandemic is irrelevant because the pandemic did happen and much of what it did is not going away anytime soon and may be permanent.

We are almost certain to see a permanent increase in telework.
And fewer people utilizing public transport is likely to continue.

You know where we discussed the effects of the pandemic on the future?

First page of the thread.

[Green October Z]

Actually, supermarketing can be done without cars: just switch to delivery services. You either order online and have it delivered OR you can go to the shop with public transportation, order on the place, and go back with public transportation while your groceries get delivered. (I also go to the supermarket on foot or with the tram, usually, but that limits the amount I can carry to 6-8 bags).
As for travel that's not to-and-from the hub, it's an issue of capillarity. The point is that LPT is never going to be profitable anyway and will always have to be fueled by the public coffers at least in part, so one could also give in and go for maximum capillarity of the service without worrying about the profitability of the peripheral lines. You don't get a profit but you get a bonus in terms of service and cleaner air.

Cost does come into play, I am here in nyc, we spend billions on mass transit and we need to spend billions more, that money just doesnt exist. How much are you willing to pay per passenger, and how long should that trip take come into play. Even during rush hour, if I visit a friend's on long island round trip transport hitting each train right on time take 2 hours each way. During rush hour it's a 1 hour drive, outside of rush hour 45 minutes.

As to shopping, We are feeding a family of 4, and tbh, I like picking out the fresh and frozen food I am buying, and when buying fresh you want to get it into some sort of refrigeration as soon as possible, picking out and waiting for delivery means the food is sitting out from the time picked to delivery, which could be hours. Throwing it into a car trunk after purchase. I have it all put away in 15 minutes from check out.

Just curious, what is traffic usually like in NYC?

[Mestovakia]

Cost does come into play, I am here in nyc, we spend billions on mass transit and we need to spend billions more, that money just doesnt exist. How much are you willing to pay per passenger, and how long should that trip take come into play. Even during rush hour, if I visit a friend's on long island round trip transport hitting each train right on time take 2 hours each way. During rush hour it's a 1 hour drive, outside of rush hour 45 minutes.

As to shopping, We are feeding a family of 4, and tbh, I like picking out the fresh and frozen food I am buying, and when buying fresh you want to get it into some sort of refrigeration as soon as possible, picking out and waiting for delivery means the food is sitting out from the time picked to delivery, which could be hours. Throwing it into a car trunk after purchase. I have it all put away in 15 minutes from check out.

Just curious, what is traffic usually like in NYC?

In Manhattan, mayhem. Rush hour is quite common. You'd be quicker walking or catching the subway.

[Novus America]

You are making claims using 2016 data. And assuming absent the pandemic such trends would continue. Great in your alternate history maybe but we live in this reality not your alternate history. The pandemic did actually happen, and it very likely will have a massive long term impact.

Absent the pandemic is irrelevant because the pandemic did happen and much of what it did is not going away anytime soon and may be permanent.

We are almost certain to see a permanent increase in telework.
And fewer people utilizing public transport is likely to continue.

You know where we discussed the effects of the pandemic on the future?

First page of the thread.

And yet you are still making claims using data as if the pandemic never happened. Absent the pandemic is irrelevant because absent the pandemic is not a possibility.

And yes, the effects of this pandemic is probably going to be in part cities like NYC losing population, a long term decrease in public transport use, and a long term increase in telework.
So putting out more busses people do not want to ride does not solve anything.

[Lost Memories]

Besides an underutilized bus actually produces more pollution than a car using the same form of propulsion.

Every car with only one driver and no passengers is underutilized too.

How many empty seats are there in an underutilized bus?
How many cars go around, and how many empty seats do cars have on average?

Cars make up a bigger share of underutilized combustible driven transportation.

[Cannot think of a name]

You know where we discussed the effects of the pandemic on the future?

First page of the thread.

And yet you are still making claims using data as if the pandemic never happened. Absent the pandemic is irrelevant because absent the pandemic is not a possibility.

And yes, the effects of this pandemic is probably going to be in part cities like NYC losing population, a long term decrease in public transport use, and a long term increase in telework.
So putting out more busses people do not want to ride does not solve anything.

Read. The. Thread.

[Shanghai industrial complex]

I don't know it.But isn't that supposed to be a wire in the street?Or underground circuits

Wires overhead. By the way, you can easily cross or run along with tram lines without problems.


Germany is testing trolleytruck lines on motorways, btw, with heavy lorries cruising at 80 km/h on fully-electric power while on the autobahn.

Isn't this a normal trolleybus

[Ethel mermania]

Cost does come into play, I am here in nyc, we spend billions on mass transit and we need to spend billions more, that money just doesnt exist. How much are you willing to pay per passenger, and how long should that trip take come into play. Even during rush hour, if I visit a friend's on long island round trip transport hitting each train right on time take 2 hours each way. During rush hour it's a 1 hour drive, outside of rush hour 45 minutes.

As to shopping, We are feeding a family of 4, and tbh, I like picking out the fresh and frozen food I am buying, and when buying fresh you want to get it into some sort of refrigeration as soon as possible, picking out and waiting for delivery means the food is sitting out from the time picked to delivery, which could be hours. Throwing it into a car trunk after purchase. I have it all put away in 15 minutes from check out.

Just curious, what is traffic usually like in NYC?

Rush hour is 6:30 am to 10:00 am. And 3:00 pm to 7:00. An off hours trip that take 45 minutes can be 1:45 by car.

[Ethel mermania]

Just curious, what is traffic usually like in NYC?

In Manhattan, mayhem. Rush hour is quite common. You'd be quicker walking or catching the subway.

Yes during rush hour public transport is usually the quickest way to go

[Novus America]

Besides an underutilized bus actually produces more pollution than a car using the same form of propulsion.

Every car with only one driver and no passengers is underutilized too.

How many empty seats are there in an underutilized bus?
How many cars go around, and how many empty seats do cars have on average?

Cars make up a bigger share of underutilized combustible driven transportation.

In some cases only a single person rides a bus.
But sure, on average cars probably have greater underutilization. But still that is not an argument in favor of subsidizing underutilized bus lines.

In some cases a bus very well may use less energy per person. In other cases it will not.
Which is why sweeping one size fits all solutions are not solutions at all.

But the biggest threat to public transportation right now is probably the fact it spreads disease.
Sure we could have fewer people on each bus so they spread out more, but that only makes more pollution per person.

Cars are the only way to travel and really maintain adequate distancing.

[Novus America]

And yet you are still making claims using data as if the pandemic never happened. Absent the pandemic is irrelevant because absent the pandemic is not a possibility.

And yes, the effects of this pandemic is probably going to be in part cities like NYC losing population, a long term decrease in public transport use, and a long term increase in telework.
So putting out more busses people do not want to ride does not solve anything.

Read. The. Thread.

That does not change the fact your 2016 article is of questionable relevance, if any.

[Cannot think of a name]

Read. The. Thread.

That does not change the fact your 2016 article is of questionable relevance, if any.

Sure.

[Federal Bacon]

I think the argument of 'banning urban vehicles' because they're 'pollutive' is extremely close to throwing out the baby with the crib. More than ever, we see new forms of renewable energy being harnessed into automotive transportation and being made more efficient. Even looking back to the energy crisis during the 1970s, automotive scientists had already found ways to make proof-of-concept models for corn-ethanol and solar-powered cars. You could even spare the economy a drastic leap by looking towards electric cars, which while not as clean, don't produce as much CO2 as petrol-based fuels, only requiring some gas or even none at all if they are completely electric. We should be focusing on developing sustainable urban vehicles and not stranding workers who rely on cars to commute to their jobs.