Open Season: "Vigilantes" Shoot Black Jogger in Georgia

[Arkhane]

His initial response says otherwise.

Was it not you who said we should keep up with more recent news ? You are still a few weeks behind.

At this age of takes and narratives, you need to be on your feet and be able to tell when something new developments or information should be believed or if the current findings still stands.

[Ifreann]

Pointing the gun is itself escalation of force. Drawing the gun is. In some places, touching the gun in the holster is sufficient.

Shrewd observation, if I didn't know any better, I almost thought they weren't trying to force him to stop.

Ofcourse they used force, how Ahmaud acted, however,

Is irrelevant. Ahmaud Abrery is dead, and he therefore will not be facing trial. Was he innocent? Was he a criminal? We may never know, and critically, it doesn't matter. He was chased and cornered by armed men. He was within his rights to use force to defend himself from those men, because even if he had committed a crime in the past, he was not committing one when they tried to force him to stop.

[Arkhane]

I don't see any difference. Unless he edited the video or added his own interpretation. He did it to influence people to think one way or the other.

There is a difference. One can be done with a public statement. the other is releasing the prosecution's Exhibit A to ensure they have unending strikes against any juror they dislike. Since the minority community will absolutely pay better attention to this than privileged white populations likely will, it's a great way to get black men and women off the jury.

That's quite the insinuations, who exactly here is being clouded by bias.

[Kernen]

There is a difference. One can be done with a public statement. the other is releasing the prosecution's Exhibit A to ensure they have unending strikes against any juror they dislike. Since the minority community will absolutely pay better attention to this than privileged white populations likely will, it's a great way to get black men and women off the jury.

That's quite the insinuations, who exactly here is being clouded by bias.

Its genius really. The prosecution can strike for cause, but it's a numbers game: more white jurors than black in a given catchment area let you keep rolling the dice. The defense would have the equivalent of the house advantage, even if it isnt a perfect jury.

White people are more likely to acquit white people of killing a black person, especially a black man. Its observable bias. bad. Bad? Yeah. But present.

Considering the huge amount of gamesmanship and manipulation inherent in the process of voir dire, it's not hard to detect. Racial bias is a huge factor in jury selection.

[Arkhane]

Shrewd observation, if I didn't know any better, I almost thought they weren't trying to force him to stop.

Ofcourse they used force, how Ahmaud acted, however,

Is irrelevant. Ahmaud Abrery is dead, and he therefore will not be facing trial. Was he innocent? Was he a criminal? We may never know, and critically, it doesn't matter. He was chased and cornered by armed men. He was within his rights to use force to defend himself from those men, because even if he had committed a crime in the past, he was not committing one when they tried to force him to stop.

You can keep insisting how the circumstances had zero effect on how things turned out. But sketchy and inconclusive incidents like these have happened so often that patterns and behaviors can be drawn out. This doesn't fit the usual bill of a racially motivated crime.

[Arkhane]

That's quite the insinuations, who exactly here is being clouded by bias.

Its genius really. The prosecution can strike for cause, but it's a numbers game: more white jurors than black in a given catchment area let you keep rolling the dice. The defense would have the equivalent of the house advantage, even if it isnt a perfect jury.

White people are more likely to acquit white people of killing a black person, especially a black man. Its observable bias. bad. Bad? Yeah. But present.

Considering the huge amount of gamesmanship and manipulation inherent in the process of voir dire, it's not hard to detect. Racial bias is a huge factor in jury selection.

I wish I had your psychic powers, sadly I have to rely on giving people the benefit of the doubt and not immediately jump to racism when things like this happen.

[Kernen]

Its genius really. The prosecution can strike for cause, but it's a numbers game: more white jurors than black in a given catchment area let you keep rolling the dice. The defense would have the equivalent of the house advantage, even if it isnt a perfect jury.

White people are more likely to acquit white people of killing a black person, especially a black man. Its observable bias. bad. Bad? Yeah. But present.

Considering the huge amount of gamesmanship and manipulation inherent in the process of voir dire, it's not hard to detect. Racial bias is a huge factor in jury selection.

I wish I had your psychic powers, sadly I have to rely on giving people the benefit of the doubt and not immediately jump to racism when things like this happen.

Not really a magic power. More a result of experience in strategic planning for defending jury trials.

[Ifreann]

Is irrelevant. Ahmaud Abrery is dead, and he therefore will not be facing trial. Was he innocent? Was he a criminal? We may never know, and critically, it doesn't matter. He was chased and cornered by armed men. He was within his rights to use force to defend himself from those men, because even if he had committed a crime in the past, he was not committing one when they tried to force him to stop.

You can keep insisting how the circumstances had zero effect on how things turned out. But sketchy and inconclusive incidents like these have happened so often that patterns and behaviors can be drawn out. This doesn't fit the usual bill of a racially motivated crime.

So? It's still very clearly a crime. When the killers tried to force Arbery to stop, they were not allowed to do that. So he was allowed to run away, and to fight back when they chased him down. It doesn't matter if Arbery behaved differently than you say an innocent person normally behaves, that's not illegal, that doesn't justify forcing him to stop. Are these killers racists? I don't know. That's a plausible explanation for why they saw a black man out jogging and concluded that he must be a criminal, but it's also possible that they came to that conclusion without being racists. It doesn't matter. Chasing a man down and killing him when he tries to fight back is still illegal whether the perpetrators are racist or not.

[Arkhane]

I wish I had your psychic powers, sadly I have to rely on giving people the benefit of the doubt and not immediately jump to racism when things like this happen.

Not really a magic power. More a result of experience in strategic planning for defending jury trials.

It might as well be since it's the default assumption without any provable evidence. Black jury member being excluded? Racism!

[Kernen]

Not really a magic power. More a result of experience in strategic planning for defending jury trials.

It might as well be since it's the default assumption without any provable evidence. Black jury member being excluded? Racism!

Hanlon's razor doesnt apply when it's an experienced defense attorney. Where race is a factor and where white jurors outnumber black jurors, it is to the advantage of the defense to maximize bias in their clients favor. This attorney did so skillfully. Anybody who saw the video could be struck for cause.

There are entire fields of study for exactly this process. It is extremely lucrative.

People dont get the benefit of the doubt when you're planning jury selection. Once you're here, you play hard.

[Grimmsland]

The video was reportedly leaked by the attorney of the killers in a hilariously inept attempt to clear their names.

It was leaked to show the truth, not to exonerate or condemn them in anyway, said the attorney.

I don't believe it. That attorney would have to be an absolute idiot or been living under a rock for 30 years. Poor white rednecks in the south are going to be seen as the perpetrators and automatically guilty in the eyes of the public and media under any circumstances. That those two whites would even consider taking this into their own hands shows that they aren't too god damned bright either. For their own sake they should've done nothing more than call the Sheriffs department/police while recording him from inside their truck with their windows up. No shit. I saw the mugshots. The son looks like he's half retarded.

[Arkhane]

It might as well be since it's the default assumption without any provable evidence. Black jury member being excluded? Racism!

Hanlon's razor doesnt apply when it's an experienced defense attorney. Where race is a factor and where white jurors outnumber black jurors, it is to the advantage of the defense to maximize bias in their clients favor. This attorney did so skillfully. Anybody who saw the video could be struck for cause.

There are entire fields of study for exactly this process. It is extremely lucrative.

People dont get the benefit of the doubt when you're planning jury selection. Once you're here, you play hard.

Field's of study that can boiled down to "x is black, that's likely why they did x". I would not be surprised if this is a self-fulfilling study where they didn't personally ask the subjects why they chose to exclude black people and just assumed that they're doing it due to a racial bias.

Kinda like that other study where they presented anonymous resumes on agencies and assumed that it was due to racism whenever black sounding names were crossed off the list and not accepted.

[Gravlen]

The man that got shot was caught on CCTV stealing from several houses in the neighborhood for several nights.

False. No reports of thefts or burglaries had been made in the recent past.

He was found 20 miles away from where he actually lived, so the whole "he was just going for a jog" that I keep hearing people say is total bull.

Also false. He lived close by.

The father and son tried to confront and apprehend him,

Which they could not legally do.

the thief

Nobody claims that Arbery has stolen anything. You really should stop lying.

resisted

Resisted an attempted false imprisonment, first by trying to run away from them, but then by attacking the armed men - surely after they threatened him with illegal acts, possibly even after they fired upon him

and tried to grab their gun

When you watch the video in the OP, you hear a gunshot as Arbery gets to the front of the car, before you see them struggling. His attempt to grab the gun may have taken place after they fired.

they fired in self defense.

It's not self-defence when you are the aggressor. They followed and confronted him without any legal grounds to detain him, and possibly pointed their guns at him or fired at him. That would all be grounds for self-defence by Arbery, and would make them aggressors.

[Gravlen]

Ofcourse they used force, how Ahmaud acted, however, is not typical for how an innocent civilian would have reacted upon being cornered.

Since they had no legal justification for using force, that would make them criminals. Of course.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Is irrelevant. Ahmaud Abrery is dead, and he therefore will not be facing trial. Was he innocent? Was he a criminal? We may never know, and critically, it doesn't matter. He was chased and cornered by armed men. He was within his rights to use force to defend himself from those men, because even if he had committed a crime in the past, he was not committing one when they tried to force him to stop.

You can keep insisting how the circumstances had zero effect on how things turned out. But sketchy and inconclusive incidents like these have happened so often that patterns and behaviors can be drawn out. This doesn't fit the usual bill of a racially motivated crime.

It absolutely does.

[Kernen]

Hanlon's razor doesnt apply when it's an experienced defense attorney. Where race is a factor and where white jurors outnumber black jurors, it is to the advantage of the defense to maximize bias in their clients favor. This attorney did so skillfully. Anybody who saw the video could be struck for cause.

There are entire fields of study for exactly this process. It is extremely lucrative.

People dont get the benefit of the doubt when you're planning jury selection. Once you're here, you play hard.

Field's of study that can boiled down to "x is black, that's likely why they did x". I would not be surprised if this is a self-fulfilling study where they didn't personally ask the subjects why they chose to exclude black people and just assumed that they're doing it due to a racial bias.

Kinda like that other study where they presented anonymous resumes on agencies and assumed that it was due to racism whenever black sounding names were crossed off the list and not accepted.

You, of course, can disagree that this kind of jury selection is racial in motive. But it has statistically significant effects on outcomes. Which is itself reason to do it.

It doesnt hurt that these methods of evaluating jurors are taught to trial attorneys. Firms spend a ton of time and money doing this because it helps when race is a factor.

[LiberNovusAmericae]

Why is it so hard for some to get that they should've just tipped off the police rather than try to play vigilante?

Guns should only be used for vigilantism if law and order completely breaks down.

[Cisairse]

I'm surprised that one of the suspects of the killing was a former cop. He did not act professionally at all.

You're surprised that a cop had a power fantasy combined with obvious racism and had no moral issue with murdering an innocent person?

Are you new in town?

[Rojava Free State]

Why is it so hard for some to get that they should've just tipped off the police rather than try to play vigilante?

Guns should only be used for vigilantism if law and order completely breaks down.

Honestly some people just like to play cop too much and end up causing more harm than good.

[Nazeroth]

I'm surprised that one of the suspects of the killing was a former cop. He did not act professionally at all.

You're surprised that a cop had a power fantasy combined with obvious racism and had no moral issue with murdering an innocent person?

Are you new in town?

You keep saying obvious racsim, is there evidence of this?

[Gun Manufacturers]

Yeah cause bad people with guns prefer good people without them.

So the answer is to have Oprah give every man, woman and child a gun?

I wouldn't mind a free firearm from Oprah, as long as she follows all applicable firearms laws (I don't live in the Chicago area, so it would need to be sent to me via an FFL).

[Thermodolia]

The man that got shot was caught on CCTV stealing from several houses in the neighborhood for several nights. He was found 20 miles away from where he actually lived, so the whole "he was just going for a jog" that I keep hearing people say is total bull. The father and son tried to confront and apprehend him, the thief resisted and tried to grab their gun, they fired in self defense.

You do realize that people jog and run for some 20+ miles regularly right? When I was in better physical condition I’d run/jog about half that.

Also there is no evidence of any burglaries in the area.

[Kernen]

So the answer is to have Oprah give every man, woman and child a gun?

I wouldn't mind a free firearm from Oprah, as long as she follows all applicable firearms laws (I don't live in the Chicago area, so it would need to be sent to me via an FFL).

Her head would explode.

[Rojava Free State]

The man that got shot was caught on CCTV stealing from several houses in the neighborhood for several nights. He was found 20 miles away from where he actually lived, so the whole "he was just going for a jog" that I keep hearing people say is total bull. The father and son tried to confront and apprehend him, the thief resisted and tried to grab their gun, they fired in self defense.

You do realize that people jog and run for some 20+ miles regularly right? When I was in better physical condition I’d run/jog about half that.

Also there is no evidence of any burglaries in the area.

Far Right wingers constantly try to portray black police shooting victims as criminal thugs...but they aren't racist allegedly.

[Nazeroth]

You do realize that people jog and run for some 20+ miles regularly right? When I was in better physical condition I’d run/jog about half that.

Also there is no evidence of any burglaries in the area.

Right wingers constantly try to portray black police shooting victims as criminal thugs...but they aren't racist allegedly.

And left wingers try to constantly portray police as the modern SS

Neither are true