NationStates

Outer Sparta wrote:That's why I only see the way out of it is with actual structural reforms instead of going the way out and voting third party. I wouldn't want to waste my vote for the Greens or something.

If Biden gets us roped into a conflict in Syria or somewhere else, I'd almost consider him as awful as Trump in all frankness. Plus I have minimal confidence that a Clinton presidency would have been much better prepared for the current epidemic than Trump given the loss of our manufacturing capacity and our continued issues with healthcare and hospitals. Biden has some decent plans but, if I'm being honest, I still don't have a lot of confidence in a neolib/neocon.

Fahran wrote:

Outer Sparta wrote:That's why I only see the way out of it is with actual structural reforms instead of going the way out and voting third party. I wouldn't want to waste my vote for the Greens or something.

If Biden gets us roped into a conflict in Syria or somewhere else, I'd almost consider him as awful as Trump in all frankness. Plus I have minimal confidence that a Clinton presidency would have been much better prepared for the current epidemic than Trump given the loss of our manufacturing capacity and our continued issues with healthcare and hospitals. Biden has some decent plans but, if I'm being honest, I still don't have a lot of confidence in a neolib/neocon.

I'd rather support Biden and then push for someone more progressive for the future. Anything to get rid of Trump and I don't have that many reservations with Biden.

Outer Sparta wrote:I'd rather support Biden and then push for someone more progressive for the future. Anything to get rid of Trump and I don't have that many reservations with Biden.

I'm not really keen on progressivism. To be honest, Trump is a bit too progressive and libertine for me in terms of policy and his personality. I also don't see any sense in fighting wars where we gain no concrete advantage, where we have no viable exit strategy, and where we have no respect or consideration for the local illiberal culture. Trump has kept us from novel conflicts and it's one of few marks to his favor.

Fahran wrote:

Outer Sparta wrote:I'd rather support Biden and then push for someone more progressive for the future. Anything to get rid of Trump and I don't have that many reservations with Biden.

I'm not really keen on progressivism. To be honest, Trump is a bit too progressive and libertine for me in terms of policy and his personality.

“Trump”
“Progressive”
These two things are mutually exclusive.

I also don't see any sense in fighting wars where we gain no concrete advantage, where we have no viable exit strategy, and where we have no respect or consideration for the local illiberal culture. Trump has kept us from novel conflicts and it's one of few marks to his favor.

This is mostly true, however it should be noted that Trump has brought us to the brink of several new conflicts multiple times, being stopped by things out of his control.

Kowani wrote:“Trump”
“Progressive”
These two things are mutually exclusive.

Trump is pretty socially progressive in some ways. His personal conduct especially isn't governed by regard for tradition, morality, decency, or etiquette. He's definitely not going to do a whole lot to revitalize institutions that have begun to come apart. He's more interested in scoring points.

Kowani wrote:This is mostly true, however it should be noted that Trump has brought us to the brink of several new conflicts multiple times, being stopped by things out of his control.

He came closest with Iran but he's actually managed to disentangle us from Syria to some extent when we could easily have escalated instead.

Fahran wrote:

Kowani wrote:“Trump”
“Progressive”
These two things are mutually exclusive.

Trump is pretty socially progressive in some ways. His personal conduct especially isn't governed by regard for tradition, morality, decency, or etiquette. He's definitely not going to do a whole lot to revitalize institutions that have begun to come apart. He's more interested in scoring points.

Speaking of social progressivism, Trump is one of the most pro-LGBT presidents in American history.

A current member of Trump's cabinet is gay, so.

-Ra- wrote:

Fahran wrote:Trump is pretty socially progressive in some ways. His personal conduct especially isn't governed by regard for tradition, morality, decency, or etiquette. He's definitely not going to do a whole lot to revitalize institutions that have begun to come apart. He's more interested in scoring points.

Speaking of social progressivism, Trump is one of the most pro-LGBT presidents in American history.

A current member of Trump's cabinet is gay, so.

You can be anti-LGBTQ and still associate with gay people. It's the same as the old "But I have a black friend" excuse.

He is not one of the most pro-LGBTQ Presidents in history. The slightest justification for that claim is his SCOTUS nominees, specifically Gorsuch, due to his most recent ruling. This entirely ignores the fact that Trump's administration was arguing against that ruling.

Fahran wrote:If Biden gets us roped into a conflict in Syria or somewhere else, I'd almost consider him as awful as Trump in all frankness. Plus I have minimal confidence that a Clinton presidency would have been much better prepared for the current epidemic than Trump given the loss of our manufacturing capacity and our continued issues with healthcare and hospitals. Biden has some decent plans but, if I'm being honest, I still don't have a lot of confidence in a neolib/neocon.

Except that Clinton would have relied on medical advice as soon as January, when Covid-19 just made its debut in government reports. She would have instituted social distancing and mask wearing by March and a lockdown by May, instead of going to rallies and repeatedly saying "it'll disappear like a miracle".

I have a few concerns about his student loan forgiveness plan, namely:
1. Will he mandate lower interest payments? Kinda silly to drop the payment amount only to make it up by maintaining or jacking up current interest rates.
2. Given Trump's recent executive order, can he even do this?
3. Will Congress get in his way?

Asle Leopolka wrote:I have a few concerns about his student loan forgiveness plan, namely:
1. Will he mandate lower interest payments? Kinda silly to drop the payment amount only to make it up by maintaining or jacking up current interest rates.
2. Given Trump's recent executive order, can he even do this?
3. Will Congress get in his way?

2. Executive orders can be overturned by the next president in office.
3. If Congress gets a blue wave in 2020, then we'll have fun times ahead.

Fahran wrote:

Outer Sparta wrote:I'd rather support Biden and then push for someone more progressive for the future. Anything to get rid of Trump and I don't have that many reservations with Biden.

I'm not really keen on progressivism. To be honest, Trump is a bit too progressive and libertine for me in terms of policy and his personality. I also don't see any sense in fighting wars where we gain no concrete advantage, where we have no viable exit strategy, and where we have no respect or consideration for the local illiberal culture. Trump has kept us from novel conflicts and it's one of few marks to his favor.

I have yet to see anything Trump has done that can be considered "Progressive".

Perhaps you could list a few progressive things he has done.

-Ra- wrote:

Fahran wrote:Trump is pretty socially progressive in some ways. His personal conduct especially isn't governed by regard for tradition, morality, decency, or etiquette. He's definitely not going to do a whole lot to revitalize institutions that have begun to come apart. He's more interested in scoring points.

Speaking of social progressivism, Trump is one of the most pro-LGBT presidents in American history.

A current member of Trump's cabinet is gay, so.

Yeah, because banning Trans people from joining the Armed Forces is totally showing Trump as an LGBT supporter

Celritannia wrote:I have yet to see anything Trump has done that can be considered "Progressive".

Perhaps you could list a few progressive things he has done.

He has consistently been supportive of gay people serving in the military since the late 1990s. He has flip-flopped on same-sex marriage being legalized since 1999 before eventually stating that he considered it a settled matter after Obergefell v. Hodges, though he has pandered to conservatives by stating that he would appoint conservative judges. He has scolded South Carolina over the transgender bathroom ban, something he did in 2016 while on campaign, but then gave support. In essence, he's been wishy-washy on a lot of LGBT+ issues. In terms of public persona while in office, he's been more progressive than anyone aside from Obama. The conclusion we can draw from his personal life is that he's probably fine with same-sex marriage and transgender people, probably more so than the Clintons or Bushes.

He has not implemented any policies that would encourage the formation of more conventional families or broader kinship networks. He has not been as prone to reference religious or classical language or the language of morality in his speeches. His nationalism has been lukewarm and mostly revolved around scoring points against political enemies and being an ass to immigrants. He has continued the processes of neoliberalism and globalization that have made many American cities less prosperous. He has caved on the regulation of firearms despite having no ostensible reason to do so. He has flip-flopped multiple times on abortion from a solidly pro-choice position in 1999 to a pro-life position in 2016. He's been wishy-washy on women serving in combat roles but, in 2015, he came out strongly in favor of it.

All things considered, he's much less conservative than Bush or Reagan, both in terms of personal conduct and in terms of policy. He's arguably less conservative than Bill Clinton in terms of policy and probably on the same level in terms of personal conduct. He's less conservative than Carter was in office but probably more conservative in terms of his personal views and attitudes - while still remaining a libertine. He doesn't seem especially religious or morally inclined in how he behaves. He doesn't invoke that imagery when he speaks usually either.

The notion that he's a conservative is absurd. He's a decadent neoliberal who flirts with nationalism and occasionally throws a bone to religious Boomers.

Fahran wrote:

Celritannia wrote:I have yet to see anything Trump has done that can be considered "Progressive".

Perhaps you could list a few progressive things he has done.

He has consistently been supportive of gay people serving in the military since the late 1990s. He has flip-flopped on same-sex marriage being legalized since 1999 before eventually stating that he considered it a settled matter after Obergefell v. Hodges, though he has pandered to conservatives by stating that he would appoint conservative judges. He has scolded South Carolina over the transgender bathroom ban, something he did in 2016 while on campaign, but then gave support. In essence, he's been wishy-washy on a lot of LGBT+ issues. In terms of public persona while in office, he's been more progressive than anyone aside from Obama. The conclusion we can draw from his personal life is that he's probably fine with same-sex marriage and transgender people, probably more so than the Clintons or Bushes.

He has not implemented any policies that would encourage the formation of more conventional families or broader kinship networks. He has not been as prone to reference religious or classical language or the language of morality in his speeches. His nationalism has been lukewarm and mostly revolved around scoring points against political enemies and being an ass to immigrants. He has continued the processes of neoliberalism and globalization that have made many American cities less prosperous. He has caved on the regulation of firearms despite having no ostensible reason to do so. He has flip-flopped multiple times on abortion from a solidly pro-choice position in 1999 to a pro-life position in 2016. He's been wishy-washy on women serving in combat roles but, in 2015, he came out strongly in favor of it.

All things considered, he's much less conservative than Bush or Reagan, both in terms of personal conduct and in terms of policy. He's arguably less conservative than Bill Clinton in terms of policy and probably on the same level in terms of personal conduct. He's less conservative than Carter was in office but probably more conservative in terms of his personal views and attitudes - while still remaining a libertine. He doesn't seem especially religious or morally inclined in how he behaves. He doesn't invoke that imagery when he speaks usually either.

The notion that he's a conservative is absurd. He's a decadent neoliberal who flirts with nationalism and occasionally throws a bone to religious Boomers.

What did he do in the way of actions for support of gay people?

Saying you support it is simply words and trump likes to say whatever pops into his head at the nanosecond.

His words are as valuable as belly button lint.

Fahran wrote:

Celritannia wrote:I have yet to see anything Trump has done that can be considered "Progressive".

Perhaps you could list a few progressive things he has done.

He has consistently been supportive of gay people serving in the military since the late 1990s. He has flip-flopped on same-sex marriage being legalized since 1999 before eventually stating that he considered it a settled matter after Obergefell v. Hodges, though he has pandered to conservatives by stating that he would appoint conservative judges. He has scolded South Carolina over the transgender bathroom ban, something he did in 2016 while on campaign, but then gave support. In essence, he's been wishy-washy on a lot of LGBT+ issues. In terms of public persona while in office, he's been more progressive than anyone aside from Obama. The conclusion we can draw from his personal life is that he's probably fine with same-sex marriage and transgender people, probably more so than the Clintons or Bushes.

He has not implemented any policies that would encourage the formation of more conventional families or broader kinship networks. He has not been as prone to reference religious or classical language or the language of morality in his speeches. His nationalism has been lukewarm and mostly revolved around scoring points against political enemies and being an ass to immigrants. He has continued the processes of neoliberalism and globalization that have made many American cities less prosperous. He has caved on the regulation of firearms despite having no ostensible reason to do so. He has flip-flopped multiple times on abortion from a solidly pro-choice position in 1999 to a pro-life position in 2016. He's been wishy-washy on women serving in combat roles but, in 2015, he came out strongly in favor of it.

All things considered, he's much less conservative than Bush or Reagan, both in terms of personal conduct and in terms of policy. He's arguably less conservative than Bill Clinton in terms of policy and probably on the same level in terms of personal conduct. He's less conservative than Carter was in office but probably more conservative in terms of his personal views and attitudes - while still remaining a libertine. He doesn't seem especially religious or morally inclined in how he behaves. He doesn't invoke that imagery when he speaks usually either.

The notion that he's a conservative is absurd. He's a decadent neoliberal who flirts with nationalism and occasionally throws a bone to religious Boomers.

What he did in the past is not the same as his actions as President.

I am asking, as President, what has he done that is progressive. What policies has he put forward?
Simply saying "he hasn't done this and that" does not mean he is progressive, it just means he hasn't targeted some issues other Presidents have.

Things he has not done in comparison to others does not make him progressive.

Celritannia wrote:

Fahran wrote:He has consistently been supportive of gay people serving in the military since the late 1990s. He has flip-flopped on same-sex marriage being legalized since 1999 before eventually stating that he considered it a settled matter after Obergefell v. Hodges, though he has pandered to conservatives by stating that he would appoint conservative judges. He has scolded South Carolina over the transgender bathroom ban, something he did in 2016 while on campaign, but then gave support. In essence, he's been wishy-washy on a lot of LGBT+ issues. In terms of public persona while in office, he's been more progressive than anyone aside from Obama. The conclusion we can draw from his personal life is that he's probably fine with same-sex marriage and transgender people, probably more so than the Clintons or Bushes.

He has not implemented any policies that would encourage the formation of more conventional families or broader kinship networks. He has not been as prone to reference religious or classical language or the language of morality in his speeches. His nationalism has been lukewarm and mostly revolved around scoring points against political enemies and being an ass to immigrants. He has continued the processes of neoliberalism and globalization that have made many American cities less prosperous. He has caved on the regulation of firearms despite having no ostensible reason to do so. He has flip-flopped multiple times on abortion from a solidly pro-choice position in 1999 to a pro-life position in 2016. He's been wishy-washy on women serving in combat roles but, in 2015, he came out strongly in favor of it.

All things considered, he's much less conservative than Bush or Reagan, both in terms of personal conduct and in terms of policy. He's arguably less conservative than Bill Clinton in terms of policy and probably on the same level in terms of personal conduct. He's less conservative than Carter was in office but probably more conservative in terms of his personal views and attitudes - while still remaining a libertine. He doesn't seem especially religious or morally inclined in how he behaves. He doesn't invoke that imagery when he speaks usually either.

The notion that he's a conservative is absurd. He's a decadent neoliberal who flirts with nationalism and occasionally throws a bone to religious Boomers.

What he did in the past is not the same as his actions as President.

I am asking, as President, what has he done that is progressive. What policies has he put forward?
Simply saying "he hasn't done this and that" does not mean he is progressive, it just means he hasn't targeted some issues other Presidents have.

Things he has not done in comparison to others does not make him progressive.

Boosted benefits for the unemployed?

Galloism wrote:

Celritannia wrote:
What he did in the past is not the same as his actions as President.

I am asking, as President, what has he done that is progressive. What policies has he put forward?
Simply saying "he hasn't done this and that" does not mean he is progressive, it just means he hasn't targeted some issues other Presidents have.

Things he has not done in comparison to others does not make him progressive.

Boosted benefits for the unemployed?

That was Congress, not Trump.
And I would not call it a boost either, compared to other countries.

I'm opposed to the Trump administration with respect to most issues, climate change is a real issue. Minorities die at higher rates during police encounters. Healthcare should not be dependant upon one's employment status. While I have high concern about abortion, other issues are equally as grave.

I anticipate a Trump loss in November.

Biden is the political prairie dog of 2020. He spends most of his time hiding in some underground bunker, occasionally pops his head up to say something that further calls his mental competence into question, then retreats below ground again. Needless to repeat, there is noting in the entire multiverse that would get me to vote Biden.

God willing, Trump will reprise the great Ronald Reagan's victory of 1984 against another former vice-president.

MGTOWia wrote:Biden is the political prairie dog of 2020. He spends most of his time hiding in some underground bunker, occasionally pops his head up to say something that further calls his mental competence into question, then retreats below ground again. Needless to repeat, there is noting in the entire multiverse that would get me to vote Biden.

God willing, Trump will reprise the great Ronald Reagan's victory of 1984 against another former vice-president.

I mean both Biden and Trump are somewhat mentally impaired.
The difference is, Biden isn't much of an egotist and listens to actual scientific advice.

Also, HA!

MGTOWia wrote:Biden is the political prairie dog of 2020. He spends most of his time hiding in some underground bunker, occasionally pops his head up to say something that further calls his mental competence into question, then retreats below ground again. Needless to repeat, there is noting in the entire multiverse that would get me to vote Biden.

God willing, Trump will reprise the great Ronald Reagan's victory of 1984 against another former vice-president.

The chance of divine intervention is unlikely to say the least.

Yet given Trump's polling deficit right now, it might take a miracle for him to turn things around.

Jedi Council wrote:

MGTOWia wrote:Biden is the political prairie dog of 2020. He spends most of his time hiding in some underground bunker, occasionally pops his head up to say something that further calls his mental competence into question, then retreats below ground again. Needless to repeat, there is noting in the entire multiverse that would get me to vote Biden.

God willing, Trump will reprise the great Ronald Reagan's victory of 1984 against another former vice-president.

The chance of divine intervention is unlikely to say the least.

Yet given Trump's polling deficit right now, it might take a miracle for him to turn things around.

Sorry, I have to.

These aren't the polls you're looking for.

Celritannia wrote:

Jedi Council wrote:The chance of divine intervention is unlikely to say the least.

Yet given Trump's polling deficit right now, it might take a miracle for him to turn things around.

Sorry, I have to.

These aren't the polls you're looking for.

*angry stormtrooper noises*

Jedi Council wrote:

MGTOWia wrote:Biden is the political prairie dog of 2020. He spends most of his time hiding in some underground bunker, occasionally pops his head up to say something that further calls his mental competence into question, then retreats below ground again. Needless to repeat, there is noting in the entire multiverse that would get me to vote Biden.

God willing, Trump will reprise the great Ronald Reagan's victory of 1984 against another former vice-president.

The chance of divine intervention is unlikely to say the least.

Yet given Trump's polling deficit right now, it might take a miracle for him to turn things around.

Mike Dukakis 1988: I'm so far ahead in the polls, I'm sure to win in November.
Joe Biden 2020: Hold my . . . you know, the thing!

MGTOWia wrote:

Jedi Council wrote:The chance of divine intervention is unlikely to say the least.

Yet given Trump's polling deficit right now, it might take a miracle for him to turn things around.

Mike Dukakis 1988: I'm so far ahead in the polls, I'm sure to win in November.
Joe Biden 2020: Hold my . . . you know, the thing!

Again, you forget Trump's mentality is not as good either.
At least Biden listens to reason.