NationStates

Posted: **Fri May 01, 2020 1:48 pm**

Liriena wrote:
Rojava Free State wrote:
I will say this, there were a hell of alot of people who voted for Trump who were on welfare, so it isn't like welfare=Democrat strongholds.

Yes, that's another gap in Emerald Legion's argument: lots of welfare recipients vote for neocons and their austerity politics.

That's not a hole in my argument in the least. I didn't say Welfare was necessarily wrong, just the manner in which democratic policy wields it is wrong.

Posted: **Fri May 01, 2020 1:56 pm**

Trump or Biden, Biden or Trump...

What a choice I have for the first election in which I can vote.

Posted: **Fri May 01, 2020 1:57 pm**

Stellar Colonies wrote:Trump or Biden, Biden or Trump...

What a choice I have for the first election in which I can vote.

Unironically, still better than the last one.

Posted: **Fri May 01, 2020 1:59 pm**

Galloism wrote:
Stellar Colonies wrote:Trump or Biden, Biden or Trump...

What a choice I have for the first election in which I can vote.

Unironically, still better than the last one.

Ooooooh

Ooooooooooooooooooooh :eek:

Posted: **Fri May 01, 2020 2:13 pm**

Galloism wrote:
Stellar Colonies wrote:Trump or Biden, Biden or Trump...

What a choice I have for the first election in which I can vote.

Unironically, still better than the last one.

Eh, I guess so.

Posted: **Fri May 01, 2020 2:15 pm**

Stellar Colonies wrote:
Galloism wrote:Unironically, still better than the last one.

Eh, I guess so.

Biden is funny in a stupid kind of way. Hillary is just awful, she's the worst thing next to Nostalgia Critic's parody of The Wall.

Posted: **Fri May 01, 2020 2:16 pm**

Well this discussion is not nearly as civil or constructive as I had hoped.

I feel I should clearify some things:

When I say leftists I mean: general leftists, democratic socialists, libertarian socialists, radical leftists, anarchists, communists, spiritual/religious socialists/communists/anarchists (including Christian socialism/communism/anarchism), marxist leftists, non-marxist leftists, anti-capitalists, green politics, pirate politics, "post-leftism," feminist socialism, market socialists, non-market socialists, participists, communalists, mutualists, reformers and revolutionaries, penal abolitionists (and abolition-democracy), intersectional feminism, worker and union movements, etc...

When I say moderates I mean: social democrats (like Bernie Sanders, whom may even be a little center right), and distributionists, etc...

When I say center-right I mean: liberalism, neo-liberalism, the Democratic Party, TYT (which is somewhere in between moderate and center-right), trans-exlusionary radical feminism, carceral feminism, "woke" liberal capitalist feminism, etc...

When I say right: I mean conservatism, right-wing libertarianism (most just anarcho-capitalists and night-watcher minarchists), protectionism, isolationism, etc...

When I say far-right: I mean fascists, nationalists, Nazis, the Republican Party, Trump, theocracy, etc...

Edit: For the purpose of this thread, I think that leftist will apply to all those whom would be considered Progressive in the United States.

Posted: **Fri May 01, 2020 2:20 pm**

Mirjt wrote:Well this discussion is not nearly as civil or constructive as I had hoped.

I feel I should clearify some things:

When I say leftists I mean: general leftists, democratic socialists, libertarian socialists, radical leftists, anarchists, communists, spiritual/religious socialists/communists/anarchists (including Christian socialism/communism/anarchism), marxist leftists, non-marxist leftists, anti-capitalists, green politics, pirate politics, "post-leftism," feminist socialism, market socialists, non-market socialists, participists, communalists, mutualists, reformers and revolutionaries, penal abolitionists, intersectional feminism, etc...

When I say moderates I mean: social democrats (like Bernie Sanders, whom may even be a little center right), and distributionists, etc...

When I say center-right I mean: liberalism, neo-liberalism, the Democratic Party, TYT (which is somewhere in between moderate and center-right), trans-exlusionary radical feminism, carceral feminism, "woke" liberal capitalist feminism, etc...

When I say right: I mean conservatism, right-wing libertarianism (most just anarcho-capitalists and night-watcher minarchists), protectionism, isolationism, etc...

When I say far-right: I mean fascists, nationalists, Nazis, the Republican Party, Trump, etc...

In what world is Trump truly far right? And bernie sanders center right? Social democrats moderate? What?

Posted: **Fri May 01, 2020 2:22 pm**

Gormwood wrote:"With other people's money, so I won't feel the pain of giving away money!"

What's ironic is the long-term consequences of these money-printing shenanigans will end up costing people a lot more than the $1,200 they got.

Posted: **Fri May 01, 2020 2:23 pm**

Mirjt wrote:Well this discussion is not nearly as civil or constructive as I had hoped.

I feel I should clearify some things:

When I say leftists I mean: general leftists, democratic socialists, libertarian socialists, radical leftists, anarchists, communists, spiritual/religious socialists/communists/anarchists (including Christian socialism/communism/anarchism), marxist leftists, non-marxist leftists, anti-capitalists, green politics, pirate politics, "post-leftism," feminist socialism, market socialists, non-market socialists, participists, communalists, mutualists, reformers and revolutionaries, penal abolitionists, intersectional feminism, etc...

When I say moderates I mean: social democrats (like Bernie Sanders, whom may even be a little center right), and distributionists, etc...

When I say center-right I mean: liberalism, neo-liberalism, the Democratic Party, TYT (which is somewhere in between moderate and center-right), trans-exlusionary radical feminism, carceral feminism, "woke" liberal capitalist feminism, etc...

When I say right: I mean conservatism, right-wing libertarianism (most just anarcho-capitalists and night-watcher minarchists), protectionism, isolationism, etc...

When I say far-right: I mean fascists, nationalists, Nazis, the Republican Party, Trump, etc...

This is shunted a bit to the left of what's viewed as a "normal" political spectrum in the United States.

Posted: **Fri May 01, 2020 2:47 pm**

There is nothing in the history of human civilization that could get me to vote for him. #Trump 2020

Posted: **Fri May 01, 2020 2:51 pm**

As others have said OP your personal political spectrum does not at all match the Overton Window of the United States. Conservatives are the largest self identified group, followed by moderates, both of whom are quite a bit above liberals. Sanders is about as far left as one can possibly be while also being somewhat mainstream, he's not a moderate.

As for the question at hand, probably a very large cash payment.

Posted: **Fri May 01, 2020 3:01 pm**

Washington Resistance Army wrote:As others have said OP your personal political spectrum does not at all match the Overton Window of the United States. Conservatives are the largest self identified group, followed by moderates, both of whom are quite a bit above liberals. Sanders is about as far left as one can possibly be while also being somewhat mainstream, he's not a moderate.

As for the question at hand, probably a very large cash payment.

I am aware that for the U.S. the political spectrum is shifted to the right and Bernie Sanders is somehow considered a far-leftists. I am born and raised in the United States. That is why I did not define leftism in my opening post, I wanted to be open to the various perspectives in the United States that may consider themselves leftists, including Social Democrats, and maybe even Progressive, Left-leaning, Liberals. Then we started getting attacks against communists, and people claiming that organizations like TYT are on the left (TYT is on the left from an U.S. point of view, but Cenk - whom I do think is a man of integrity and reason - has made it clear that he and TYT are capitalists, have disregarded viewpoints from more radical leftists, made attempts at union-busting, advocates for punitive approaches to crime - though he is reasonable enough to say the death penalty and torture goes too far and that some things shouldn't be crimes, bought way into RussiaGate when there were so many other things to be upset about in the 2016 election, etc...). It was at that point that I felt the need to clearify what I meant when I make references to the political spectrum. I should probably reword leftist to mean progressive, as that term is probably more meaningful in a U.S. context.

Posted: **Fri May 01, 2020 3:18 pm**

So far responses seem to be:

1. Progressive will vote for Biden because we need to defeat Trump

2. Progressive will not vote for Biden no matter what for one reason or another (sexual misconduct allegations, being just as bad or worse than Trump, awful voting and policy record, perceptions of dementia, etc...)

3. Progressive might vote for Biden, but he must become a Progressive or Leftist

4. Progressive argues that Biden should resign the nomination and endorse Bernie (I wish)

5. People from across the political spectrum have suggested they may vote for Biden if they have reasonable certainty they will receive financial benefit in the form of direct cash.

6. A few right-wingers have said they insist upon Trump being their preferred candidate, or that the Democrats are too awful to vote for.

7. One right-wing post that basically laid out their personal political platform in its near entirity and argued that Biden must adopt that platform, if he wants that right-wing vote.

8. And some discussion that is only tangential to the topic at hand.

P.S. Please remember to be civil in your discussion, arguments, positions, critiques, and reviews. No personal attacks.

Posted: **Fri May 01, 2020 3:27 pm**

You should add a poll asking who's able to vote or not.

The answers will be very interesting.

Posted: **Fri May 01, 2020 3:31 pm**

Mirjt wrote:So far responses seem to be:

1. Progressive will vote for Biden because we need to defeat Trump

2. Progressive will not vote for Biden no matter what for one reason or another (sexual misconduct allegations, being just as bad or worse than Trump, awful voting and policy record, perceptions of dementia, etc...)

3. Progressive might vote for Biden, but he must become a Progressive or Leftist

4. Progressive argues that Biden should resign the nomination and endorse Bernie (I wish)

5. People from across the political spectrum have suggested they may vote for Biden if they have reasonable certainty they will receive financial benefit in the form of direct cash.

6. A few right-wingers have said they insist upon Trump being their preferred candidate, or that the Democrats are too awful to vote for.

7. One right-wing post that basically laid out their personal political platform in its near entirity and argued that Biden must adopt that platform, if he wants that right-wing vote.

8. And some discussion that is only tangential to the topic at hand.

P.S. Please remember to be civil in your discussion, arguments, positions, critiques, and reviews. No personal attacks.

I'm a mix of 1 and 3, even though I fit more in the first camp.

Posted: **Fri May 01, 2020 3:36 pm**

MGTOWia wrote:There is nothing in the history of human civilization that could get me to vote for him. #Trump 2020

Has he really not done a bad enough job yet? How much harm must he do to America before you all stop enabling him?

Posted: **Fri May 01, 2020 3:39 pm**

Mirjt wrote:So far responses seem to be:

1. Progressive will vote for Biden because we need to defeat Trump

2. Progressive will not vote for Biden no matter what for one reason or another (sexual misconduct allegations, being just as bad or worse than Trump, awful voting and policy record, perceptions of dementia, etc...)

3. Progressive might vote for Biden, but he must become a Progressive or Leftist

4. Progressive argues that Biden should resign the nomination and endorse Bernie (I wish)

5. People from across the political spectrum have suggested they may vote for Biden if they have reasonable certainty they will receive financial benefit in the form of direct cash.

6. A few right-wingers have said they insist upon Trump being their preferred candidate, or that the Democrats are too awful to vote for.

7. One right-wing post that basically laid out their personal political platform in its near entirity and argued that Biden must adopt that platform, if he wants that right-wing vote.

8. And some discussion that is only tangential to the topic at hand.

P.S. Please remember to be civil in your discussion, arguments, positions, critiques, and reviews. No personal attacks.

Where is the "progressives will vote for him if he compromises and adopts X into his platform?"

Posted: **Fri May 01, 2020 3:39 pm**

UIS Leviathan wrote:For him to not be practically senile, for a start
I get to choose between a senile idiot or a senile idiot
It’s a hard choice, really

Would you like to vote for an old senile white man who is self-admittedly guilty of sexual abuse, or an old senile white man who has an undisputed history of oddly sexual touching and a slightly less reliable accusation of sexual abuse against him?

We talk so much about diversity and then this is the choice we end up with. 'Murica.

Posted: **Fri May 01, 2020 3:40 pm**

Nothing.

Posted: **Fri May 01, 2020 3:41 pm**

Idzequitch wrote:
UIS Leviathan wrote:For him to not be practically senile, for a start
I get to choose between a senile idiot or a senile idiot
It’s a hard choice, really

Would you like to vote for an old senile white man who is self-admittedly guilty of sexual abuse, or an old senile white man who has an undisputed history of oddly sexual touching and a slightly less reliable accusation of sexual abuse against him?

We talk so much about diversity and then this is the choice we end up with. 'Murica.

I love how both of our presidential candidates are like COVID's number one victim. Can we please pick candidates less likely to die in office?

And before anyone says "what about bernie," yes I would even prefer a younger candidate than him if they had his ideals. The presidency ages people fast (have you seen Obama or Bush after 8 years?) So if you already are old and grey, it very well may take you out.

Posted: **Fri May 01, 2020 3:42 pm**

Idzequitch wrote:
UIS Leviathan wrote:For him to not be practically senile, for a start
I get to choose between a senile idiot or a senile idiot
It’s a hard choice, really

Would you like to vote for an old senile white man who is self-admittedly guilty of sexual abuse, or an old senile white man who has an undisputed history of oddly sexual touching and a slightly less reliable accusation of sexual abuse against him?

We talk so much about diversity and then this is the choice we end up with. 'Murica.

If you wanna say Biden's an oddly sexual toucher than you gotta say his wife Jill is too.

The Biden's are both very touchy people, and you can find tons of pictures of Jill cuddling with Michelle and Joe embracing Obama.

Posted: **Fri May 01, 2020 3:44 pm**

Idzequitch wrote:
UIS Leviathan wrote:For him to not be practically senile, for a start
I get to choose between a senile idiot or a senile idiot
It’s a hard choice, really

Would you like to vote for an old senile white man who is self-admittedly guilty of sexual abuse, or an old senile white man who has an undisputed history of oddly sexual touching and a slightly less reliable accusation of sexual abuse against him?

We talk so much about diversity and then this is the choice we end up with. 'Murica.

Don't forget the most recent claim against Biden either.

It's not full sexual assault, but holy fuck that's creepy.

Posted: **Fri May 01, 2020 3:46 pm**

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Idzequitch wrote:Would you like to vote for an old senile white man who is self-admittedly guilty of sexual abuse, or an old senile white man who has an undisputed history of oddly sexual touching and a slightly less reliable accusation of sexual abuse against him?

We talk so much about diversity and then this is the choice we end up with. 'Murica.

Don't forget the most recent claim against Biden either.

It's not full sexual assault, but holy fuck that's creepy.

Anyone who votes for him because "anyone but trump" better not say shit about supporting sexual abuse victims ever again. You can vote for a lesser of evils or you can stick to your guns, but with all due respect I don't want to take part in replacing a sexual harasser with a full on child molester and rapist.

Posted: **Fri May 01, 2020 3:49 pm**

Genivaria wrote:
Mirjt wrote:So far responses seem to be:

1. Progressive will vote for Biden because we need to defeat Trump

2. Progressive will not vote for Biden no matter what for one reason or another (sexual misconduct allegations, being just as bad or worse than Trump, awful voting and policy record, perceptions of dementia, etc...)

3. Progressive might vote for Biden, but he must become a Progressive or Leftist

4. Progressive argues that Biden should resign the nomination and endorse Bernie (I wish)

5. People from across the political spectrum have suggested they may vote for Biden if they have reasonable certainty they will receive financial benefit in the form of direct cash.

6. A few right-wingers have said they insist upon Trump being their preferred candidate, or that the Democrats are too awful to vote for.

7. One right-wing post that basically laid out their personal political platform in its near entirity and argued that Biden must adopt that platform, if he wants that right-wing vote.

8. And some discussion that is only tangential to the topic at hand.

P.S. Please remember to be civil in your discussion, arguments, positions, critiques, and reviews. No personal attacks.

Where is the "progressives will vote for him if he compromises and adopts X into his platform?"

I haven't really seen too many comments that have adopted that response. I wish we had more of that response, because that would lay out the demands that progressives have for Biden to win their vote, that would be a clear answer to the question "What would it take for you to vote for Biden?" Of course related points of discussion, such as if there is anything Biden can do to win Progressives, or if Biden is even vote-able (would that be the best "word?"), are very useful to that discussion.

I guess there have been a few who have taken the position of progressive who will vote for him if he adopts Medicare for All and/or the Green New Deal.

NationStates

What Would It Take for You to Vote for Biden?