What Would It Take for You to Vote for Biden?

[Kannap]

I'm only saying that bothsame is not as crazy as some say it is. Yes, currently trump is in control and is killing everyone, but let's not make the mistake of "oh yeah we just get rid of trump and everything is lovely once again." It could always get worse.

Getting establishment aligned Democrats to admit that pre-2016 was not some political utopia that we need to get back to is going to be like pulling teeth.

People keep saying they want things to go back to normal, but quality of life in America was shit even when things were "normal"

[Kannap]

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/05/tara-reade-joe-biden-allegation-reporting-vox-pbs-doubts.html

Believe all women, huh? Sure.

This Tara Reade fella seems far more dishonest and manipulative than Christine Blasey Ford ever was. MeToo is looking more and more like a joke with each passing day. Yes, I believe Joe Biden is innocent and Reade is lying even though I don't necessarily support the guy. The hypocritical Democrat establishment that's defending Joe, possibly including Joe himself, is no better. This guy represents more of the same old, woke establishment crap.

Honest question as an undecided, non-voting foreigner: Why should I support Joe Biden? Why shouldn't I support Donald Trump or Vermin Supreme?

I'm glad you asked, it's quite simple really. Joe Biden isn't Donald Trump. Really simple.

[The Black Forrest]

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/05/tara-reade-joe-biden-allegation-reporting-vox-pbs-doubts.html

Believe all women, huh? Sure.

This Tara Reade fella seems far more dishonest and manipulative than Christine Blasey Ford ever was. MeToo is looking more and more like a joke with each passing day. Yes, I believe Joe Biden is innocent and Reade is lying even though I don't necessarily support the guy. The hypocritical Democrat establishment that's defending Joe, possibly including Joe himself, is no better. This guy represents more of the same old, woke establishment crap.

Honest question as an undecided, non-voting foreigner: Why should I support Joe Biden? Why shouldn't I support Donald Trump or Vermin Supreme?

I'm glad you asked, it's quite simple really. Joe Biden isn't Donald Trump. Really simple.

And that’s bad?

[Kannap]

I'm glad you asked, it's quite simple really. Joe Biden isn't Donald Trump. Really simple.

And that’s bad?

Less bad than being Trump

[The Black Forrest]

And that’s bad?

Less bad than being Trump

More like a big improvement.

[Kannap]

Less bad than being Trump

More like a big improvement.

"big" is doing a lot of work in this sentence

[LiberNovusAmericae]

Getting establishment aligned Democrats to admit that pre-2016 was not some political utopia that we need to get back to is going to be like pulling teeth.

People keep saying they want things to go back to normal, but quality of life in America was shit even when things were "normal"

Agreed. Trump is an effect of our problems, not the cause of them. Establishment Democrats think that we should all unite behind "safe" politicians to defeat Trump, when those politicians have presided over our festering problems.

[The Black Forrest]

People keep saying they want things to go back to normal, but quality of life in America was shit even when things were "normal"

Agreed. Trump is an effect of our problems, not the cause of them. Establishment Democrats think that we should all unite behind "safe" politicians to defeat Trump, when those politicians have presided over our festering problems.

You are assuming a third party president would change much if anything.

[LiberNovusAmericae]

Agreed. Trump is an effect of our problems, not the cause of them. Establishment Democrats think that we should all unite behind "safe" politicians to defeat Trump, when those politicians have presided over our festering problems.

You are assuming a third party president would change much if anything.

You're assuming I support wasting my time voting for third parties, when in actuality, I support the creation of a voting block that will run anti-establishment politicians in both parties. I do think that people of different ideologies than what the establishment is giving us would result in changes. Many are willing to consider policies that would be dead on arrival with both our parties. Change is possible.

[New Bremerton]

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/05/tara-reade-joe-biden-allegation-reporting-vox-pbs-doubts.html

Believe all women, huh? Sure.

This Tara Reade fella seems far more dishonest and manipulative than Christine Blasey Ford ever was. MeToo is looking more and more like a joke with each passing day. Yes, I believe Joe Biden is innocent and Reade is lying even though I don't necessarily support the guy. The hypocritical Democrat establishment that's defending Joe, possibly including Joe himself, is no better. This guy represents more of the same old, woke establishment crap.

Honest question as an undecided, non-voting foreigner: Why should I support Joe Biden? Why shouldn't I support Donald Trump or Vermin Supreme?

I'm glad you asked, it's quite simple really. Joe Biden isn't Donald Trump. Really simple.

I mean, sure, he's bad in many ways, but he's not that bad. Plus, he's the devil we've known for four years. I can tolerate four more years of Trump as much as I can tolerate a Biden administration. Trump will be gone after 2024. Orange Man Bad isn't really an argument. It's just sentimental bleating.

[The Black Forrest]

I'm glad you asked, it's quite simple really. Joe Biden isn't Donald Trump. Really simple.

I mean, sure, he's bad in many ways, but he's not that bad. Plus, he's the devil we've known for four years. I can tolerate four more years of Trump as much as I can tolerate a Biden administration. Trump will be gone after 2024. Orange Man Bad isn't really an argument. It's just sentimental bleating.

Its easy to support that if you don’t have to live under their efforts.

Orange man bad is usually trotted out when people can’t defend what he has done.

[Gormwood]

Get a room.

You're gonna have to take me to dinner first dear, oh and you'll have to pay for the room too.

Nah, you were all whispering sweet nothings to Fahran so the room would be for you two. No PDA, thanks.

[LiberNovusAmericae]

Let's be honest, Trump would not be in power right know if the Democrats nominated someone more popular than Hilary Clinton, but the DNC and the inept "moderates" had to get what they wanted. Now we have Biden, who is pretty much Hilary with a penis. If he loses this election, the Democrats should do some introspection, rather than blame and shame everyone else. Their strategy is a losing one. They thought that we would have no choice but to vote for their shitty candidate because the other side has a monster; that did not work in 2016, and it certainly ain't going to work on me in 2020.

[The Black Forrest]

Let's be honest, Trump would not be in power right know if the Democrats nominated someone more popular than Hilary Clinton, but the DNC had to get what they wanted. Now we have Biden, who is pretty much Hilary with a penis. If he loses this election, the Democrats should do some introspection, rather than blame and shame everyone else. Their strategy is a losing one. They thought that we would have no choice but to vote for their shitty candidate because the other side has a monster; that did not work in 2016, and it certainly ain't going to work on me in 2020.

It’s not that simple. H ran a crappy campaign. Even somebody you don’t like can be acceptable if their plans sound good. Blue Wall? WTF? A message of rebuilding and renewel in Michigan would have resinated in the Rust Belt.

Even Biden said she didn’t know why she was running. Biden will not make her mistakes. I can accept gaffes if he does things; has plans for things.

Trump is not a guarantee anymore. Covid and the tanked economy will work against him. People tend to blame whomever is in charge.

[Mirjt]

Unfortunate as it may be, people of colour (especially black and brown folks) and undocumented folks do not have the privilege of letting Trump win "just to prove a point" against the Democratic establishment. I support Bernie, but I am not putting my fellow Americans at risk of even more deportation, racial profiling, and erosion of the working class for another four years just because of ideological reasons against Biden.

You can argue that they don't have the luxury of letting the Democrats think that Biden is good enough, that they don't need to provide universal healthcare, that they don't need to address climate change in a substantial way, that it is okay to keep shooting, locking up, or torturing citizens and non-citizen residents, that it is okay to leave people homeless, etc... All kinds of marginalized people, either it be due to race, immigration status, citizenship status, gender, sexuality, disability, illness, religion, etc... can not afford 4 years of Trump, but they can't afford to let the Democratic Party continue as normal either.

[LiberNovusAmericae]

Trump is not a guarantee anymore. Covid and the tanked economy will work against him. People tend to blame whomever is in charge.

I don't think he is either. To be honest, I still think Biden is weak, and there is a very good chance he will still lose. Enthusiasm is low, and people like me are not motivated to vote for him. Being Anti-Trump is not a good selling point, when there is little else there platform-wise. Biden once promised not much will change.

[Mirjt]

People keep saying they want things to go back to normal, but quality of life in America was shit even when things were "normal"

Agreed. Trump is an effect of our problems, not the cause of them. Establishment Democrats think that we should all unite behind "safe" politicians to defeat Trump, when those politicians have presided over our festering problems.

In way a vote for Biden could be a vote for another Trump to emerge in a few years.

[Mirjt]

You are assuming a third party president would change much if anything.

You're assuming I support wasting my time voting for third parties, when in actuality, I support the creation of a voting block that will run anti-establishment politicians in both parties. I do think that people of different ideologies than what the establishment is giving us would result in changes. Many are willing to consider policies that would be dead on arrival with both our parties. Change is possible.

I agree we should be primarying establishment candidates when we can. Though I support the use of third parties as well, when we lose our primaries. It needs to be decided on a case by case basis.

[Gormwood]

Agreed. Trump is an effect of our problems, not the cause of them. Establishment Democrats think that we should all unite behind "safe" politicians to defeat Trump, when those politicians have presided over our festering problems.

In way a vote for Biden could be a vote for another Trumo to emerge in a few years.

I'd take at least 4 years to stop and possibly reverse the damage done over 8 straight years of the U.S. sinking like the Trumptanic, thanks.

[Mirjt]

Let's be honest, Trump would not be in power right know if the Democrats nominated someone more popular than Hilary Clinton, but the DNC had to get what they wanted. Now we have Biden, who is pretty much Hilary with a penis. If he loses this election, the Democrats should do some introspection, rather than blame and shame everyone else. Their strategy is a losing one. They thought that we would have no choice but to vote for their shitty candidate because the other side has a monster; that did not work in 2016, and it certainly ain't going to work on me in 2020.

It’s not that simple. H ran a crappy campaign. Even somebody you don’t like can be acceptable if their plans sound good. Blue Wall? WTF? A message of rebuilding and renewel in Michigan would have resinated in the Rust Belt.

Even Biden said she didn’t know why she was running. Biden will not make her mistakes. I can accept gaffes if he does things; has plans for things.

Trump is not a guarantee anymore. Covid and the tanked economy will work against him. People tend to blame whomever is in charge.

That is true, if this was 6 months ago, Biden would be almost sure to lose to Trump if he was the nominee. However the current crisis have made it so that it is essentially a coin flip.

[Elwher]

There are those who believe Biden would be a good president; there are those who believe that Trump would be a good 2nd term president; there are those who believe that neither would be good enough. (Full disclosure, I am in the third group) If group 1 votes for Biden and group 2 votes for Trump, then the person with the most supporters should be the president. That's how Democracy works, folks.

Group 3 people should examine the slate of minor party candidates and vote for the one they feel is most in line with their stance; if there are enough of them who do so perhaps the major parties will choose better candidates in 2024.

[Hakons]

This is a morbidly fun thread to scroll a few pages through. But, for the record, and as a voter who generally prefers a more left alternative to Biden's politics, not being Bernie Sanders was a pretty good start for getting my vote.

I would vote for Biden if he adhered more closely to Catholic teaching.

You've posted thoughtfully before on how neither party adheres perfectly enough to Catholic teaching for you to be entirely comfortable voting for them: In Biden's case, are you mostly talking about abortion policy or are there other dealbreakers?

Biden supports Catholic teaching on many key things. His immigration policy is way better than Trump's, he balances the rights of workers and employers better, and his environmental policy is perhaps inspired by Pope Francis' Laudato Si'. His demeanor and words are also more charitable. He deceives less and causes less scandal than the President.

On the contrary, as you identified, Biden's position on abortion is way out of line with Catholic teaching, and he even went further away in the last year to keep pace with many Democrats. The USCCB (The US Bishop's Conference) consistently says the preservation of life is the most pressing moral issue in American public society. Catholics are obligated to vote in a manner that benefits the common good, and most observant Catholics see voting for pro-abortion politicians makes that impossible. Other issues include the likely continuation of Obama's policies on religious freedom. Democrats have repeatedly shown the desire to shut down Catholic charities or punish Catholic schools if they don't agree with the state's position on same-sex couples.

The Little Sisters of the Poor (a religious order of nuns) are ridiculously in court again over contraception healthcare mandates, despite the Obama admin losing its argument almost a decade ago. It seems many Democrats want to bully the Church with litigation, and it's a serious concern. Among Democrats, Biden is probably the most capable in sensing the fears of Catholics and alleviating them, but that didn't happen during the Obama admin when religious liberty cases were becoming more prevalent.

[The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp]

Getting establishment aligned Democrats to admit that pre-2016 was not some political utopia that we need to get back to is going to be like pulling teeth.

People keep saying they want things to go back to normal, but quality of life in America was shit even when things were "normal"

At least normal had presidents who didn't lie about adding to the debt. Obama IIRC said that he was going to run a deficit.

In his last year he only added $671 billion to the debt. Trump in 2019 added $1.203 trillion.

Oh and normal also had the US on a plan to reduce more carbon emissions but now there not beacuse climate change, like COVID-19, is all a Democrat deep state Chinese SJW MSN media hoax.

[The Black Forrest]

There are those who believe Biden would be a good president; there are those who believe that Trump would be a good 2nd term president; there are those who believe that neither would be good enough. (Full disclosure, I am in the third group) If group 1 votes for Biden and group 2 votes for Trump, then the person with the most supporters should be the president. That's how Democracy works, folks.

Group 3 people should examine the slate of minor party candidates and vote for the one they feel is most in line with their stance; if there are enough of them who do so perhaps the major parties will choose better candidates in 2024.

How much does Trump and the Trumpests align with your views?

How much does Biden?

[Hakons]

I would vote for Biden if he adhered more closely to Catholic teaching.

More closely to Catholic teaching than who? The guy who rawdogs porn stars when his wife is pregnant, who can't recite the Lord's Prayer, who gets the name of II Corinthians wrong, who only tells the truth by accident, who calls Nazis "good people," who tears babies from their parents' arms and inters them in secret jails, whose idea of the Golden Rule is "every man for himself," who has cheated everyone he ever did business with, really, need I go on? Biden on his worst day adheres more closely to Catholic teaching than Trump fast asleep in a hamberder and Diet Coke induced food coma.

I'm not planning on voting for Trump. Catholic political philosophy doesn't recognize picking the lesser evil. That's till picking evil. In this case, Trump's immigration policy (family separation, extensive deportations, rejecting refugees) is legitimately evil. I found this article helpful:

If you think that there is a contribution to the common good that Trump will make and that is proportionately grave enough to justify material cooperation in whatever ill you think he will likely cause, then you have a case that he is a moral means, and the “worse-ness” of Hillary would be an added reason as to why one might choose it. But if that is not the case, then you are faced with it being an immoral choice no matter how much worse Hillary would be—it is excluded even before considering her. In which case, while you may re-examine Trump in light of the common good, you must reject temptations that come from scaremongering and villainization of Hillary. You must reject the idea that you should set aside your conscience because you “have to do something.”

We are supposed to minimize our cooperation in evil. One might see proportionate reasons in Trump himself (and not merely in comparison to Hillary) to hold their nose and vote Trump; I disagree, but I am not talking to those people, who may well be in good conscience. Rather, I am talking to those that keep repeating calls to violate conscience (sin), or to choose the lesser evil (sin). Those avenues are traps of the devil. Instead, inform your conscience rather than violating it, and always remember that the first precept of the natural law is, “do good, shun evil,” not “do alright, minimize evil.”