What Would It Take for You to Vote for Biden?

[Atheris]

Yeah, and Hideki Tojo was friendly to China, too.

didn't he try to invade China?

Well, yeah, but the point is that both Donnie and Hideki weren't nice to China. Shut up, stop poking holes in my metaphors.

[Gormwood]

didn't he try to invade China?

Well, yeah, but the point is that both Donnie and Hideki weren't nice to China. Shut up, stop poking holes in my metaphors.

Tojo actually has China invaded.

[Atheris]

Well, yeah, but the point is that both Donnie and Hideki weren't nice to China. Shut up, stop poking holes in my metaphors.

Tojo actually has China invaded.

Well, he didn't really succeed in the invasion, because he lost.

[The New Last Order]

This topic is directed toward U.S. Leftists (edit: and Progressives) whom are currently not planning to vote for Biden.

For me:

I do not support Biden or his neo-liberal to deeply conservative viewpoints and policies. I do not trust Biden with important issues. (That said, I don't despise Joe Biden because I believe in loving every single human being). I currently plan to vote for Howie Hawkins (and down ticket for progressive democrats, independents, and third party candidates) in November; though that may not matter because I live in Maryland, a safe blue state, which will probably cast all 10 of its electoral votes for Joe Biden. I am, however, willing to risk a Trump second term to show the Democratic establishment that they need to earn my vote (they don't just get my vote because they aren't the worse option). I already consider Bernie Sanders policies to be a moderate compromise (his policies were social democracy, which is a moderate compromise between socialism and capitalism) so I am hesitant to compromise further; that said I think (or hope) that the left has more power right now, and so offer Biden this deal: I will consider voting for Biden, if he meets all the following conditions (this is the minimum price for my vote):

1. He must adopt at least 90% of each of the following plans published by Bernie Sanders:
A. Medicare for All
B. Green New Deal
C. Ending Mass Incarceration
D. Any 3 Economics Plans (Biden may choose from a list of plans published by Bernie Sanders)

2. He must publish his own plan for improving U.S. Democracy (with ideas like ranked choice voting, multi-member districts, campaign finance reform, public campaign funding, support and protection for non-electoral politics, etc...).

3. He must allow leftists at least 45% influence in the DNC.

4. He must allow leftists to choose his Vice President (we will choose a woman so Biden may keep his campaign promise of having a woman Vice President).

5. He must allow and endorse Bernie Sanders (and Alexandria Ocasio Cortez, and Ilhan Omar, and Ayanna Presley, and Rashida Talib, and all the other Progressives in Congress) to handle future Democratic responses to the Covid-19 pandemic.

6. He must, on video, sign a pledge (which will be copied and distributed to anyone who wants a copy) that states that if he does not attempt to fulfill each of the above campaign promises during his first 18 months in office, then he will resign after the 2022 midterm elections.

Note: I am okay with adding other stipulations to the signed pledge, such as swearing on the Christian Bible, or making the pledge a full-fledged legal document that can be used to sue Biden should he break it.

Note: I am not even really sure Biden is aware he needs to win over leftists (or independents, or typically non-voters), he probably thinks that the leftists have no where to go but the Democratic Party and he thinks he already has the votes of the Democrats. In his mind he probably thinks he needs to win over Republicans (which is nearly impossible) and swing voters.

I would have to hear about positive changes that he’ll do for the disabled.

[Mirjt]

This topic is directed toward U.S. Leftists (edit: and Progressives) whom are currently not planning to vote for Biden.

For me:

I do not support Biden or his neo-liberal to deeply conservative viewpoints and policies. I do not trust Biden with important issues. (That said, I don't despise Joe Biden because I believe in loving every single human being). I currently plan to vote for Howie Hawkins (and down ticket for progressive democrats, independents, and third party candidates) in November; though that may not matter because I live in Maryland, a safe blue state, which will probably cast all 10 of its electoral votes for Joe Biden. I am, however, willing to risk a Trump second term to show the Democratic establishment that they need to earn my vote (they don't just get my vote because they aren't the worse option). I already consider Bernie Sanders policies to be a moderate compromise (his policies were social democracy, which is a moderate compromise between socialism and capitalism) so I am hesitant to compromise further; that said I think (or hope) that the left has more power right now, and so offer Biden this deal: I will consider voting for Biden, if he meets all the following conditions (this is the minimum price for my vote):

1. He must adopt at least 90% of each of the following plans published by Bernie Sanders:
A. Medicare for All
B. Green New Deal
C. Ending Mass Incarceration
D. Any 3 Economics Plans (Biden may choose from a list of plans published by Bernie Sanders)

2. He must publish his own plan for improving U.S. Democracy (with ideas like ranked choice voting, multi-member districts, campaign finance reform, public campaign funding, support and protection for non-electoral politics, etc...).

3. He must allow leftists at least 45% influence in the DNC.

4. He must allow leftists to choose his Vice President (we will choose a woman so Biden may keep his campaign promise of having a woman Vice President).

5. He must allow and endorse Bernie Sanders (and Alexandria Ocasio Cortez, and Ilhan Omar, and Ayanna Presley, and Rashida Talib, and all the other Progressives in Congress) to handle future Democratic responses to the Covid-19 pandemic.

6. He must, on video, sign a pledge (which will be copied and distributed to anyone who wants a copy) that states that if he does not attempt to fulfill each of the above campaign promises during his first 18 months in office, then he will resign after the 2022 midterm elections.

Note: I am okay with adding other stipulations to the signed pledge, such as swearing on the Christian Bible, or making the pledge a full-fledged legal document that can be used to sue Biden should he break it.

Note: I am not even really sure Biden is aware he needs to win over leftists (or independents, or typically non-voters), he probably thinks that the leftists have no where to go but the Democratic Party and he thinks he already has the votes of the Democrats. In his mind he probably thinks he needs to win over Republicans (which is nearly impossible) and swing voters.

I would have to hear about positive changes that he’ll do for the disabled.

That would be glorious, but I don't think it is likely, I would settle for expanding SSDI and SSI, ensuring disabled people aren't paid below minimum wage, and that better treatment for disabled prisoners. It's not much, but it is something. I understand the necessity of this because both my mother and late father were deaf, and me and my brother both have high functioning autism and ADHD, in addition I have Generalized Anxiety Disorder and some symptoms of OCD and SAD, my brother has severe migraines (that preventing him from working, or even getting out of bed sometimes), and both my mother and brother have depression. Not to mention the disabilities in my extended family.

[The New Last Order]

I would have to hear about positive changes that he’ll do for the disabled.

That would be glorious, but I don't think it is likely, I would settle for expanding SSDI and SSI, ensuring disabled people aren't paid below minimum wage, and that better treatment for disabled prisoners. It's not much, but it is something. I understand the necessity of this because both my mother and late father were deaf, and me and my brother both have high functioning autism and ADHD, in addition I have Generalized Anxiety Disorder and some symptoms of OCD and SAD, my brother has severe migraines (that preventing him from working, or even getting out of bed sometimes), and both my mother and brother have depression. Not to mention the disabilities in my extended family.

Welcome ! Finally, a person with disabilities. I got tired of speaking to non-disabled people. Yes, that would be all awesome. But, I don’t think we could change things by acting so moderately. The key as I see it is by pushing and protesting.
Pushing in terms of not changing what we are asking for.We have to let them knowing that 1)we have our standards and 2) we will not budge on our demands. By having one unified voice, we’ll let them know what we want.
Protesting in that we won’t take half measures. Will people die ? Probably. Will people go to jail ? Probably. But to think about it, you have to keep in mind what Martin Luther King did. Did people die or go to jail? Yes, of course they did. But by taken a firm stance and not stopping protesting, they eventually forced them to do away with segregation laws. In the same way, through one unified voice and through protesting, we will force them to adopt more unified practices and laws for the disabled
So what I am saying is we must be prepared to be killed and go to jail to get what we need. If it takes a 100 years or even a 1,000 years we can hold protests and demonstrations against anti-disabled laws. It is worth t, because they will blow smoke up our asses with an assurance that they do it “someday” . Someday ? How long?
But we definitely should push for the things you mentioned.

[-SARS-]

That would be glorious, but I don't think it is likely, I would settle for expanding SSDI and SSI, ensuring disabled people aren't paid below minimum wage, and that better treatment for disabled prisoners. It's not much, but it is something. I understand the necessity of this because both my mother and late father were deaf, and me and my brother both have high functioning autism and ADHD, in addition I have Generalized Anxiety Disorder and some symptoms of OCD and SAD, my brother has severe migraines (that preventing him from working, or even getting out of bed sometimes), and both my mother and brother have depression. Not to mention the disabilities in my extended family.

Welcome ! Finally, a person with disabilities. I got tired of speaking to non-disabled people. Yes, that would be all awesome. But, I don’t think we could change things by acting so moderately. The key as I see it is by pushing and protesting.
Pushing in terms of not changing what we are asking for.We have to let them knowing that 1)we have our standards and 2) we will not budge on our demands. By having one unified voice, we’ll let them know what we want.
Protesting in that we won’t take half measures. Will people die ? Probably. Will people go to jail ? Probably. But to think about it, you have to keep in mind what Martin Luther King did. Did people die or go to jail? Yes, of course they did. But by taken a firm stance and not stopping protesting, they eventually forced them to do away with segregation laws. In the same way, through one unified voice and through protesting, we will force them to adopt more unified practices and laws for the disabled
So what I am saying is we must be prepared to be killed and go to jail to get what we need. If it takes a 100 years or even a 1,000 years we can hold protests and demonstrations against anti-disabled laws. It is worth t, because they will blow smoke up our asses with an assurance that they do it “someday” . Someday ? How long?
But we definitely should push for the things you mentioned.

Is that you, Lincolnopolis?

[Nazis in Space]

I do not support Biden or his neo-liberal to deeply conservative viewpoints and policies.

Mate, if your definition of 'Deeply Conservative' is this, your definition of 'Deeply Conservative' may be worthless.

1. He must adopt at least 90% of each of the following plans published by Bernie Sanders:
A. Medicare for All
B. Green New Deal
C. Ending Mass Incarceration
D. Any 3 Economics Plans (Biden may choose from a list of plans published by Bernie Sanders)

And he'd do this when he trashed Sanders at 2:1 ratios... why?

Which brings us to the next point, which is

2. He must publish his own plan for improving U.S. Democracy (with ideas like ranked choice voting, multi-member districts, campaign finance reform, public campaign funding, support and protection for non-electoral politics, etc...).

3. He must allow leftists at least 45% influence in the DNC.

4. He must allow leftists to choose his Vice President (we will choose a woman so Biden may keep his campaign promise of having a woman Vice President).

5. He must allow and endorse Bernie Sanders (and Alexandria Ocasio Cortez, and Ilhan Omar, and Ayanna Presley, and Rashida Talib, and all the other Progressives in Congress) to handle future Democratic responses to the Covid-19 pandemic.

... please stop pretending that you want more democracy when you proceed to reject it in the next three paragraphs.

If you lose an election at a 70:30 ratio and then demand that the side that one adopts basically your entire program, you do not believe in democracy. You believe in your own side getting everything despite winning nothing.

This does, admittedly, go rather hand in hand with Sanders' track record of doing way better in caucuses (limited to, essentially, the party elite) than in primaries (much more democratic), but y'know, it'd be nice of you to not lie about your belief in democracy.

If you believe in the dictatorship of your guy the proletariat, that's fine. I mean, I'd oppose you, but hey.

But claiming that you want more democracy when you explicitly reject election results - and the delusions of Sandernistas notwithstanding, Sanders did, as mentioned above, do best when the common man couldn't vote, and the election was restricted to the local party elite. Much like Sanders does best in a rural-ish, so white you need snow glasses state and sinks like a rock as soon as minorities get involved, which probably has to do with his habit of ignoring them in the hope that their vote will be split because blacks are automatons who'll automatically vote black or something - is pathetic.

It's also inconsistent. Multi-member districts? That sounds suspiciously like supporting coalitions and compromise. Yet you just rejected all of these things by demanding unconditional surrender rather than dealing with the actual result of an election that rejected you and offering compromise yourself! In an election in which your choosen champion's strategy was 'Hope my opposition's votes are split so I can ride a 30% plurality to the presidency!' That's not democracy. Don't pretend it is.

And lastly, your vote is also worthless. You even admitted to this - you're in Maryland, a safe blue state. You're plainly not needed. You're irrelevant. Votes are needed in the swing states that, again, Sanders consistently lost by hilarious margins.

The path to the presidency is literally to ignore you and focus on getting the blue dogs and their supporters into the boat. And yet, rather than asking nicely to get a voice, too, so you may be heard, too - the old paradigm of politics as the art of the possible, the attainable. The art of the next best - you stomp around demanding EVERYTHING while offering NOTHING. While not even HAVING anything to offer!

That's not even offensive. That's just sad in its sheer, mindboggling ignorance.

You sit there and make demands. Nobody's going to listen.

Because you have nothing to offer.

For him to not be practically senile, for a start
I get to choose between a senile idiot or a senile idiot
It’s a hard choice, really

I do admittedly find it fascinating how this silliness keeps going despite Biden soundly trashing Sanders in the debates.

Though it does rather point at the people making this claim having cognitive issues themselves.

For one, if he still expects to be the Democrats' candidate, he would have to actually take responsibility for his creepy and predatory behavior towards women and specially towards Tara Reade, and commit to him and the party making amends for how horribly they handled this.

You mean the thing where Raede's story changes every five minutes, past statements are heavily edited time and time again, and goalposts are shifted every other day as Raede walks back on her claims every time more information contradicting her claims is released?

[Forsher]

Well, the both sidesism of NSG has come out in full swing with the hackneyed "but Biden and Trump are the same" arguments over and over again.

They aren't the same, but Biden being the lesser evil compared to the omnishambles in chief is not a merit. Lots of pieces of shit are marginally less awful than Trump because they haven't put children in concentration camps or willfully neglected an entire American territory after a natural disaster struck. But if your electoral strategy revolves around framing your candidate and your party as the least grotesquely putrid, you're setting yourself up for failure.

"I'm the lesser evil" is not how you win an election. It's how you rationalize your imminent electoral defeat.

I disagree.

Firstly, I don't think Biden is framed in such terms. There's a difference between "less bad", "the lesser evil" and "is bad, but isn't evil". There is also a difference between "personally reprehensible but politically not evil versus personally and politically reprehensible". Democrat political strategy is very much "Trump is evil, here's our guy". Or, rather, "Trump is evil, let me be your guy".

Secondly, negative campaigns tend to be associated with unclear policy directions. We spent years here with Labour framing itself as the "not John Key" party and as a result it's difficult even now to define what they are (besides xenophobic and thin skinned). Biden has spent the entire time representing the establishment or mainstream Democrat. Claiming to be what's typical is a very, very powerful political strategy (one of the pillars of Keysiam, incidentally) and the particular way Biden's gone about this has left people with a clear idea of what he stands for.

Thirdly, I really don't see how anyone can imagine "but I was the lesser evil" to be a rationalisation of an electoral defeat... how does this work?

As to the thread question...

American citizenship.

Well... maybe.

What you've got to understand about NZ is that it's basically as party based as you can make politics and I live in a safe seat for a party I don't support. In other words, voting for a specific person is almost wholly alien or completely irrelevant (I can't even remember the party of whoever got my electorate vote, let alone their name). The exception is local elections which is largely "the okay guy" versus "these guys". The okay guy stomps and I vote for him. So, again, the people don't actually matter in practice. It's actually even difficult to be clear what people stand for.

But the idea of people who have the kind of accusations both Trump and Biden carry around, actually getting to the point of asking for votes is incomprehensibly dystopian. For example, Colin Craig wrote some love letters to his secretary and his entire political party basically collapsed, even though he'd already left it. (This is a gross simplification.) Can you imagine that?

(And may such a time where I have to confront such a dilemma never arise. But, hey, that's what the thread's about and I chose to post here so on we go with the hypothetical reasoning.)

In a world where someone knocks on the door and says to me, "Forsher, you're now a US citizen, here's a passport" and I am confronted with the present US candidates? I've got no idea what I'd do. I can't even move to NZ in protest since, you know, I'm already here.

Actually... and I don't think saying this is trolling... it occurs to me that parts of the US political establishment are hoping Biden (a) wins and (b) dies early in his term. Given the way the US works, this seems a reasonable way of abrogating any sense of moral responsibility for having to think about the truth of certain allegations. Which, you know, I have already avoided doing on the basis that it's a problem for Americans, not me. So, in other words, I could see myself making this argument to rationalise my own actions. How different is it really to what I'm doing now?

But in policy terms... or if I concluded (as I did way back when with Dominique Strauss-Kahn) Biden is innocent... I am more inclined to Biden's way of thinking than Trump's. And anyway, and this is a fourth dimension to my issues with Liriena's analysis above, I do have problems with knowingly acting in a way that I believe will result in a worse outcome (i.e. not voting Biden given the opponent is Trump and no-one else could possibly win).

Actually, I don't think it's unethical to say something like, "Okay, these two are both pieces of shit which makes their moral and legal failings irrelevant... and given one of them will win, it is therefore morally equivalent to choosing between to unknown candidates with known policies". So, by this argument, it really would only require American citizenship for Biden to get my vote.

[Mirjt]

I do not support Biden or his neo-liberal to deeply conservative viewpoints and policies.

Mate, if your definition of 'Deeply Conservative' is this, your definition of 'Deeply Conservative' may be worthless.

1. He must adopt at least 90% of each of the following plans published by Bernie Sanders:
A. Medicare for All
B. Green New Deal
C. Ending Mass Incarceration
D. Any 3 Economics Plans (Biden may choose from a list of plans published by Bernie Sanders)

And he'd do this when he trashed Sanders at 2:1 ratios... why?

Which brings us to the next point, which is

2. He must publish his own plan for improving U.S. Democracy (with ideas like ranked choice voting, multi-member districts, campaign finance reform, public campaign funding, support and protection for non-electoral politics, etc...).

3. He must allow leftists at least 45% influence in the DNC.

4. He must allow leftists to choose his Vice President (we will choose a woman so Biden may keep his campaign promise of having a woman Vice President).

5. He must allow and endorse Bernie Sanders (and Alexandria Ocasio Cortez, and Ilhan Omar, and Ayanna Presley, and Rashida Talib, and all the other Progressives in Congress) to handle future Democratic responses to the Covid-19 pandemic.

... please stop pretending that you want more democracy when you proceed to reject it in the next three paragraphs.

If you lose an election at a 70:30 ratio and then demand that the side that one adopts basically your entire program, you do not believe in democracy. You believe in your own side getting everything despite winning nothing.

This does, admittedly, go rather hand in hand with Sanders' track record of doing way better in caucuses (limited to, essentially, the party elite) than in primaries (much more democratic), but y'know, it'd be nice of you to not lie about your belief in democracy.

If you believe in the dictatorship of your guy the proletariat, that's fine. I mean, I'd oppose you, but hey.

But claiming that you want more democracy when you explicitly reject election results - and the delusions of Sandernistas notwithstanding, Sanders did, as mentioned above, do best when the common man couldn't vote, and the election was restricted to the local party elite. Much like Sanders does best in a rural-ish, so white you need snow glasses state and sinks like a rock as soon as minorities get involved, which probably has to do with his habit of ignoring them in the hope that their vote will be split because blacks are automatons who'll automatically vote black or something - is pathetic.

It's also inconsistent. Multi-member districts? That sounds suspiciously like supporting coalitions and compromise. Yet you just rejected all of these things by demanding unconditional surrender rather than dealing with the actual result of an election that rejected you and offering compromise yourself! In an election in which your choosen champion's strategy was 'Hope my opposition's votes are split so I can ride a 30% plurality to the presidency!' That's not democracy. Don't pretend it is.

And lastly, your vote is also worthless. You even admitted to this - you're in Maryland, a safe blue state. You're plainly not needed. You're irrelevant. Votes are needed in the swing states that, again, Sanders consistently lost by hilarious margins.

The path to the presidency is literally to ignore you and focus on getting the blue dogs and their supporters into the boat. And yet, rather than asking nicely to get a voice, too, so you may be heard, too - the old paradigm of politics as the art of the possible, the attainable. The art of the next best - you stomp around demanding EVERYTHING while offering NOTHING. While not even HAVING anything to offer!

That's not even offensive. That's just sad in its sheer, mindboggling ignorance.

You sit there and make demands. Nobody's going to listen.

Because you have nothing to offer.

For him to not be practically senile, for a start
I get to choose between a senile idiot or a senile idiot
It’s a hard choice, really

I do admittedly find it fascinating how this silliness keeps going despite Biden soundly trashing Sanders in the debates.

Though it does rather point at the people making this claim having cognitive issues themselves.

For one, if he still expects to be the Democrats' candidate, he would have to actually take responsibility for his creepy and predatory behavior towards women and specially towards Tara Reade, and commit to him and the party making amends for how horribly they handled this.

You mean the thing where Raede's story changes every five minutes, past statements are heavily edited time and time again, and goalposts are shifted every other day as Raede walks back on her claims every time more information contradicting her claims is released?

I appreciate your critique of my personal demands to vote for Biden, however I do feel like my views have been attacked unjustly and would like to defend them.

Yes, I do consider Biden to be somewhere between neo-liberal to deeply conservative. I consider (as does most political scientists) the U.S. political spectrum to be shifted far to the right. For instance Bernie Sanders is a moderate by the Worldwide standards that I apply to myself (I am much further to the left than Bernie, and I still don't consider myself far-left, I know many people much further left than me). Bernie's ideology is democratic socialism, but his platform was social democracy (which is a moderate compromise between socialism and capitalism). In fact in some European nations, many aspects of Bernie's platform would be considered center-right and center-right parties have actually put forward some things that Bernie did; such as Medicare for All, it may abolish private healthcare insurance, but the government does not abolish private medical practices, or privately run hospitals (which should be non-profit regardless if they are public or private), or private pharmaceutical companies. As far as I am concerned Bernie was already the compromise.

Biden (or at least the Democratic Party) claims to need the votes of all the Progressives who wanted Bernie (and other candidates), so then they need to offer us something to vote for him. That is democracy afterall, I don't consider a democracy a winner take all affair (even though that is how the voting system works in the U.S.). So what are the demands that leftists have. Well, speaking for myself, my compromise candidate did not win and I don't want to compromise again, but I am willing to extend the olive branch. I understand Biden is not Bernie, and even if Biden accepted my demands I still don't know if I would vote for Biden, but will at least consider it. I am not going to expect Biden to adopt the more than 30 plans that Bernie published, but I demand at least these 3, Medicare for All, the Green New Deal, and Ending Mass Incarceration, 3 more (economic) plans of Biden's choosing (for his vision of what his administration will look like). I won't even ask that he adopts 100% of the plans he will adopt, if he wants to cut them a little, I might be able to tolerate it, but he needs to keep at least 90%.

I find my initial offer to be overwhelming generous.

You also accuse my third through fifth points as being undemocratic. I disagree. My third point was that he must allow leftists 45% power in the DNC. I am not asking for total control of the DNC or even 50:50, I am asking that leftists are guaranteed a fair seat at the table that decides how the Democratic Primaries work, what the Democratic priorities are, the tactics used to elect Democrats, etc... If he wants leftists to vote for him, I don't think it is unreasonable to demand a seat at the table. My fourth point was that he allows us to choose his vice president, not his entire cabinet, just one member of the cabinet that has a noticeable role. My fifth point was basically asking that he support giving the reigns of the pandemic response team, the response legislation that the democrats are writing, over to a Democrat that leftist feel can adequately deal with the crisis (which some may even see as a life or death situation) - which I think is fair as one of a few gestures of good-will, given that Bernie suspended his campaign to focus on the pandemic.

You also seemed to question the democratic legitimacy of multi-member districts. Multi-member districts are when a single districts has more than one representative. For example Maryland has 8 representatives in the House of Representatives, and 8 districts that each elects a single representative. Under a multi-member district you would fuse single districts together to create "super-districts," for example you could have district 1 and 2 became a single district, district A, with 2 representatives. Then when they have their election, how of 7 candidates, the first and second place candidates would win a seat, if the top two candidates together represent 80% of the vote, then that means most the citizens will have a candidate they voted for, even if they weren't the first place winner. It allows for the public to have better and more proportional representation. This is just one of many kinds of electoral reforms that can be done to improve the democratic process. If you are interested in learning more about such reforms I suggest starting with the organization FairVote (fairvote.org) or the YouTube Channel CGPgrey (here is a link to his video discussing a voting system that used multi-member districts: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8XOZJk ... a&index=13).

You bring up that Biden won the primary, but the primary is only one method of communication and rule by the people (and I find primaries as a method to be very flawed, especially the Democratic Party primaries) and democracy is more complex than that. There have also been political strategies used in electoral politics. I do think there is an argument to eschew electoral politics, but for now anyway I consider them a tool in the toolbox to achieve change. However, one of the core values of leftism and socialism is democracy, after all, democratic socialism believes you cannot have socialism with democracy and you cannot have democracy without socialism, so I would not say I am against democracy.

P.S. This comment represents my personal views, not that of all leftists and progressives. This is a defense of what I would want, as a minimum, for Biden to win my vote (if indeed he is trying to win my vote). I understand that for many he can't win their vote, and this thread is meant to explore what would it take for Biden to get our vote, what would he have to give us.

[Nazis in Space]

Yes, I do consider Biden to be somewhere between neo-liberal to deeply conservative. I consider (as does most political scientists) the U.S. political spectrum to be shifted far to the right.

[citation needed]

We'll get into why this citation is needed in... the next paragraph, actually.

For instance Bernie Sanders is a moderate by the Worldwide standards that I apply to myself

I presume that 'Worldwide' excludes, for instance, Germany, where the closest thing to Sanders would be Die Linke, which, while it does sit in governing coalitions in some state parliaments, sits on the far left of the political spectrum insofar as parties even capable of getting into the parliament are concerned, fails to capture more than about ten percent of the vote, and is systematically ignored by every single other party in the Bundestag.

Sanders' treatment in the US and by the democrats in particular is incredibly generous by, at the very least, Germany's standard, where he'd never get the chance to even pretend having ambitions for the chancellorship, and where he and his rhetoric would basically be told to take a ball and play outside while the adults are talking.

Which would admittedly not be a huge loss, given Sanders' pathetic record in the Senate.

many aspects of Bernie's platform would be considered center-right and center-right parties have actually put forward some things that Bernie did; such as Medicare for All, it may abolish private healthcare insurance, but the government does not abolish private medical practices, or privately run hospitals (which should be non-profit regardless if they are public or private), or private pharmaceutical companies. As far as I am concerned Bernie was already the compromise.

Again, the only party that even proposes such a thing that I know of is Die Linke. They're ignored, and they're commanding a significantly lesser share of the vote than Sanders.

Biden (or at least the Democratic Party) claims to need the votes of all the Progressives who wanted Bernie (and other candidates), so then they need to offer us something to vote for him. That is democracy afterall, I don't consider a democracy a winner take all affair

Funny, since your demands amount to a loser takes all.

Well, speaking for myself, my compromise candidate did not win and I don't want to compromise again

Yes, your inability to grasp the concept of politics has already been acknowledged.

but I am willing to extend the olive branch.

Your definition of 'Olive Branch' is loosely comparable to the Austro-Hungarian ultimatum to Serbia in July 1914.

I find my initial offer to be overwhelming generous.

Have you considered saying this with a Darth Vader voice?

You should totally say this in a Darth Vader voice. It'd fit remarkably well.

You also accuse my third through fifth points as being undemocratic. I disagree. My third point was that he must allow leftists 45% power in the DNC.

Which is more than the vote share Sanders got. Hence undemocratic. Surely basic math is not beyond your comprehension?

Also, just how do you propose that Biden does this? Biden's not in control of it. Membership consists of, to quote them

The Democratic National Committee, or DNC, was created during the Democratic National Convention of 1848, and is governed by its Charter and Bylaws. For 171 years, it’s been responsible for governing the Democratic Party and is the oldest continuing party committee in the United States.

Under the leadership of Chair Tom Perez, the DNC is composed of the chairs and vice-chairs of each state Democratic Party Committee and over 200 members elected by Democrats in all 57 states and the territories.

So basically, you're saying that Biden should

• usurp Mr Perez
• ignore the state parties' own choices for chairs and vice-chairs
• and ignore the elected members in favour of installing unelected Sandernistas instead
• indeed, to abolish elections to the DNC altogether, since you want fixed percentages appointed by a random guy instead

And yet you still claim to support democracy.

You're lying.

I am not asking for total control of the DNC or even 50:50, I am asking that leftists are guaranteed a fair seat at the table that decides how the Democratic Primaries work, what the Democratic priorities are, the tactics used to elect Democrats, etc... If he wants leftists to vote for him, I don't think it is unreasonable to demand a seat at the table.

I, on the other hand, do think it is unreasonable to unseat elected members of the DNC in favour of Sanders' cronies who had a chance to be elected into it but, y'know... failed.

Without an election, merely on the say-so of someone who isn't even a member of the DNC.

You also seemed to question the democratic legitimacy of multi-member districts.

No, I didn't. Rather, I questioned why you support them when the concept seems rather at odds with everything else you're demanding, since the concept results in compromises being outright required, yet that's precisely what you reject. It is a (more) democratic concept, yet the demands you make (see above) are the demands of a warlord, blatantly demanding that democratic processes be eliminated.

However, one of the core values of leftism and socialism is democracy

Unless you're losing, that is. As demonstrated by your plethora of blatantly undemocratic demands.

[Mirjt]

Yes, I do consider Biden to be somewhere between neo-liberal to deeply conservative. I consider (as does most political scientists) the U.S. political spectrum to be shifted far to the right.

[citation needed]

We'll get into why this citation is needed in... the next paragraph, actually.

For instance Bernie Sanders is a moderate by the Worldwide standards that I apply to myself

I presume that 'Worldwide' excludes, for instance, Germany, where the closest thing to Sanders would be Die Linke, which, while it does sit in governing coalitions in some state parliaments, sits on the far left of the political spectrum insofar as parties even capable of getting into the parliament are concerned, fails to capture more than about ten percent of the vote, and is systematically ignored by every single other party in the Bundestag.

Sanders' treatment in the US and by the democrats in particular is incredibly generous by, at the very least, Germany's standard, where he'd never get the chance to even pretend having ambitions for the chancellorship, and where he and his rhetoric would basically be told to take a ball and play outside while the adults are talking.

Which would admittedly not be a huge loss, given Sanders' pathetic record in the Senate.

many aspects of Bernie's platform would be considered center-right and center-right parties have actually put forward some things that Bernie did; such as Medicare for All, it may abolish private healthcare insurance, but the government does not abolish private medical practices, or privately run hospitals (which should be non-profit regardless if they are public or private), or private pharmaceutical companies. As far as I am concerned Bernie was already the compromise.

Again, the only party that even proposes such a thing that I know of is Die Linke. They're ignored, and they're commanding a significantly lesser share of the vote than Sanders.

Biden (or at least the Democratic Party) claims to need the votes of all the Progressives who wanted Bernie (and other candidates), so then they need to offer us something to vote for him. That is democracy afterall, I don't consider a democracy a winner take all affair

Funny, since your demands amount to a loser takes all.

Well, speaking for myself, my compromise candidate did not win and I don't want to compromise again

Yes, your inability to grasp the concept of politics has already been acknowledged.

but I am willing to extend the olive branch.

Your definition of 'Olive Branch' is loosely comparable to the Austro-Hungarian ultimatum to Serbia in July 1914.

I find my initial offer to be overwhelming generous.

Have you considered saying this with a Darth Vader voice?

You should totally say this in a Darth Vader voice. It'd fit remarkably well.

You also accuse my third through fifth points as being undemocratic. I disagree. My third point was that he must allow leftists 45% power in the DNC.

Which is more than the vote share Sanders got. Hence undemocratic. Surely basic math is not beyond your comprehension?

Also, just how do you propose that Biden does this? Biden's not in control of it. Membership consists of, to quote them

The Democratic National Committee, or DNC, was created during the Democratic National Convention of 1848, and is governed by its Charter and Bylaws. For 171 years, it’s been responsible for governing the Democratic Party and is the oldest continuing party committee in the United States.

Under the leadership of Chair Tom Perez, the DNC is composed of the chairs and vice-chairs of each state Democratic Party Committee and over 200 members elected by Democrats in all 57 states and the territories.

So basically, you're saying that Biden should

• usurp Mr Perez
• ignore the state parties' own choices for chairs and vice-chairs
• and ignore the elected members in favour of installing unelected Sandernistas instead
• indeed, to abolish elections to the DNC altogether, since you want fixed percentages appointed by a random guy instead

And yet you still claim to support democracy.

You're lying.

I am not asking for total control of the DNC or even 50:50, I am asking that leftists are guaranteed a fair seat at the table that decides how the Democratic Primaries work, what the Democratic priorities are, the tactics used to elect Democrats, etc... If he wants leftists to vote for him, I don't think it is unreasonable to demand a seat at the table.

I, on the other hand, do think it is unreasonable to unseat elected members of the DNC in favour of Sanders' cronies who had a chance to be elected into it but, y'know... failed.

Without an election, merely on the say-so of someone who isn't even a member of the DNC.

You also seemed to question the democratic legitimacy of multi-member districts.

No, I didn't. Rather, I questioned why you support them when the concept seems rather at odds with everything else you're demanding, since the concept results in compromises being outright required, yet that's precisely what you reject. It is a (more) democratic concept, yet the demands you make (see above) are the demands of a warlord, blatantly demanding that democratic processes be eliminated.

However, one of the core values of leftism and socialism is democracy

Unless you're losing, that is. As demonstrated by your plethora of blatantly undemocratic demands.

At the moment I am unable to respond to the entirity of your post as I have to handle other concerns. I still think you are misrepresenting or misunderstanding my viewpoints though. I will mention one thing though, the Presidential Nominee for a major party in the U.S. is considered the de facto leader of that party and has significant sway in the appointment of several functions in their party (in the Democrats case the DNC).

[Godular]

I’ll still vote for Biden, though I think he could handle the sexual assault allegations better if only to set him apart from Trump. Trying to sweep it under the carpet ain’t gonna work, justified or not. Acknowledge the complaint, apologize for any misunderstandings/stupid shit/stupid actions, and move on.

[Rojava Free State]

I’ll still vote for Biden, though I think he could handle the sexual assault allegations better if only to set him apart from Trump. Trying to sweep it under the carpet ain’t gonna work, justified or not. Acknowledge the complaint, apologize for any misunderstandings/stupid shit/stupid actions, and move on.

Imo violently raping a woman isn't a mistake. Mistakes are like when you're late to work or forget to charge your phone.

[-SARS-]

[citation needed]

We'll get into why this citation is needed in... the next paragraph, actually.

I presume that 'Worldwide' excludes, for instance, Germany, where the closest thing to Sanders would be Die Linke, which, while it does sit in governing coalitions in some state parliaments, sits on the far left of the political spectrum insofar as parties even capable of getting into the parliament are concerned, fails to capture more than about ten percent of the vote, and is systematically ignored by every single other party in the Bundestag.

Sanders' treatment in the US and by the democrats in particular is incredibly generous by, at the very least, Germany's standard, where he'd never get the chance to even pretend having ambitions for the chancellorship, and where he and his rhetoric would basically be told to take a ball and play outside while the adults are talking.

Which would admittedly not be a huge loss, given Sanders' pathetic record in the Senate.

Again, the only party that even proposes such a thing that I know of is Die Linke. They're ignored, and they're commanding a significantly lesser share of the vote than Sanders.

Funny, since your demands amount to a loser takes all.

Yes, your inability to grasp the concept of politics has already been acknowledged.

Your definition of 'Olive Branch' is loosely comparable to the Austro-Hungarian ultimatum to Serbia in July 1914.

Have you considered saying this with a Darth Vader voice?

You should totally say this in a Darth Vader voice. It'd fit remarkably well.

Which is more than the vote share Sanders got. Hence undemocratic. Surely basic math is not beyond your comprehension?

Also, just how do you propose that Biden does this? Biden's not in control of it. Membership consists of, to quote them

So basically, you're saying that Biden should

• usurp Mr Perez
• ignore the state parties' own choices for chairs and vice-chairs
• and ignore the elected members in favour of installing unelected Sandernistas instead
• indeed, to abolish elections to the DNC altogether, since you want fixed percentages appointed by a random guy instead

And yet you still claim to support democracy.

You're lying.

I, on the other hand, do think it is unreasonable to unseat elected members of the DNC in favour of Sanders' cronies who had a chance to be elected into it but, y'know... failed.

Without an election, merely on the say-so of someone who isn't even a member of the DNC.

No, I didn't. Rather, I questioned why you support them when the concept seems rather at odds with everything else you're demanding, since the concept results in compromises being outright required, yet that's precisely what you reject. It is a (more) democratic concept, yet the demands you make (see above) are the demands of a warlord, blatantly demanding that democratic processes be eliminated.

Unless you're losing, that is. As demonstrated by your plethora of blatantly undemocratic demands.

At the moment I am unable to respond to the entirity of your post as I have to handle other concerns. I still think you are misrepresenting or misunderstanding my viewpoints though. I will mention one thing though, the Presidential Nominee for a major party in the U.S. is considered the de facto leader of that party and has significant sway in the appointment of several functions in their party (in the Democrats case the DNC).

You should definitely do the Darth Vader voice when you say your offer is generous.

[Rojava Free State]

At the moment I am unable to respond to the entirity of your post as I have to handle other concerns. I still think you are misrepresenting or misunderstanding my viewpoints though. I will mention one thing though, the Presidential Nominee for a major party in the U.S. is considered the de facto leader of that party and has significant sway in the appointment of several functions in their party (in the Democrats case the DNC).

You should definitely do the Darth Vader voice when you say your offer is generous.

Someone would have to threaten to infect me with this guy to make me vote for Biden. Even then I would hesitate.

[Godular]

I’ll still vote for Biden, though I think he could handle the sexual assault allegations better if only to set him apart from Trump. Trying to sweep it under the carpet ain’t gonna work, justified or not. Acknowledge the complaint, apologize for any misunderstandings/stupid shit/stupid actions, and move on.

Imo violently raping a woman isn't a mistake. Mistakes are like when you're late to work or forget to charge your phone.

If such claims are true, they are indeed rather dire. What an unfortunate time this is that I find I still must say that Biden’s record is better than Trump’s even on that score. Why somebody might switch their vote to Trump over this, for me, defies explanation.

[Ethel mermania]

Imo violently raping a woman isn't a mistake. Mistakes are like when you're late to work or forget to charge your phone.

If such claims are true, they are indeed rather dire. What an unfortunate time this is that I find I still must say that Biden’s record is better than Trump’s even on that score. Why somebody might switch their vote to Trump over this, for me, defies explanation.

Trump at least paid the people fingered

[Godular]

If such claims are true, they are indeed rather dire. What an unfortunate time this is that I find I still must say that Biden’s record is better than Trump’s even on that score. Why somebody might switch their vote to Trump over this, for me, defies explanation.

Trump at least paid the people fingered

If my recollection on the various stories holds, not all of them.

Also, I’m having difficulty finding the information, but when did this accusation about Biden initially emerge?

[Ethel mermania]

Trump at least paid the people fingered

If my recollection on the various stories holds, not all of them.

Also, I’m having difficulty finding the information, but when did this accusation about Biden initially emerge?

Which ones?

That he is overly touchie freely and makes women uncomfortable? Pretty much continually starting Decades ago.

The tara reide one? fairly recently. Though there does seem to be some proof that the allegation was made when the event allegedly happened, decades ago.

I must be weird, I vote for whichever canidate is closer to the policies I support. So as far as a choice between biden and trump none of this matters to me. I am a Republican, I am going to vote for trump.

[Godular]

If my recollection on the various stories holds, not all of them.

Also, I’m having difficulty finding the information, but when did this accusation about Biden initially emerge?

Which ones?

That he is overly touchie freely and makes women uncomfortable? Pretty much continually starting Decades ago.

The tara reide one? fairly recently. Though there does seem to be some proof that the allegation was made when the event allegedly happened, decades ago.

I must be weird, I vote for whichever canidate is closer to the policies I support. So as far as a choice between biden and trump none of this matters to me. I am a Republican, I am going to vote for trump.

Specifically the assault. The Touchy-Feely stuffI’ve already known about, but I’ve my own thoughts on that.

[Atheris]

Your definition of 'Olive Branch' is loosely comparable to the Austro-Hungarian ultimatum to Serbia in July 1914.

Have you considered saying this with a Darth Vader voice?

Two things about these points:

1: The Austro-Hungarian Ultimatum to Serbia was actually not that unfair. The only part the Serbs rejected was to accept Austrian police to investigate the assassination on their soil.

2: The Empire were the good guys.

[MGTOWia]

There is nothing in the history of human civilization that could get me to vote for him. #Trump 2020

Has he really not done a bad enough job yet? How much harm must he do to America before you all stop enabling him?

"Harm to America"? Drop the crack pipe and step away from the keyboard.

President Trump is doing EXACTLY what I voted for him for: attempting to drain the swamp (and getting at least a good start on doing it), reversing as many of the policies of the previous occupant of the White House as he can, appointing originalist judges to the judiciary, advancing an American nationalist foreign policy, cutting regulations, CUTTING MY TAXES, and especially FIGHTING BACK against the scurrilous attacks of the other party and the lies of the dishonest news media. And in the current situation, he has done a far better job than any pretender from the opposing party could ever dream of accomplishing. 'Nuff said.

[Rojava Free State]

Has he really not done a bad enough job yet? How much harm must he do to America before you all stop enabling him?

"Harm to America"? Drop the crack pipe and step away from the keyboard.

President Trump is doing EXACTLY what I voted for him for: attempting to drain the swamp (and getting at least a good start on doing it), reversing as many of the policies of the previous occupant of the White House as he can, appointing originalist judges to the judiciary, advancing an American nationalist foreign policy, cutting regulations, CUTTING MY TAXES, and especially FIGHTING BACK against the scurrilous attacks of the other party and the lies of the dishonest news media. And in the current situation, he has done a far better job than any pretender from the opposing party could ever dream of accomplishing. 'Nuff said.

#1 he is the swamp. Have you not seen how he's been stealing supplies from states?

#2 reversing policies such as the failed Syrian war he keeps participating in

#3 most of his judicial appointments are just yes men that'll let him do what he wants.

#4 he cut taxes on the rich. Not you, you now pay more in taxes than someone with 50 times the amount of money you have.

#5 the dishonest news media, huh. Were they dishonest when they reported that he told people to inject lysol, because i remember you all saying he was taken out of context before he admitted that that was what he said, making you and the other 40% of America who supports this clown look like bigger jokers than he is. And better job? 65,000 Americans died after he delayed testing, confiscated medical supplies and lied and said COVID was "just the flu." Trump is a terrible president, an adulterer, a sexual molester, a child abuser and a tard that thinks windmill sounds cause cancer. Literally nobody is impressed with the biggest embarrassment America ever suffered. Outside your little bubble most people hate Trump, and I can see why considering he's the creep who talked about throwing a pregnant woman down a flight of stairs to cause a miscarriage. You voted for an idiot, and now people are dying because of the selfish and incompetent choice you made in November of 2016. Thanks alot for making America a failed state again.

[-SARS-]

"Harm to America"? Drop the crack pipe and step away from the keyboard.

President Trump is doing EXACTLY what I voted for him for: attempting to drain the swamp (and getting at least a good start on doing it), reversing as many of the policies of the previous occupant of the White House as he can, appointing originalist judges to the judiciary, advancing an American nationalist foreign policy, cutting regulations, CUTTING MY TAXES, and especially FIGHTING BACK against the scurrilous attacks of the other party and the lies of the dishonest news media. And in the current situation, he has done a far better job than any pretender from the opposing party could ever dream of accomplishing. 'Nuff said.

#1 he is the swamp. Have you not seen how he's been stealing supplies from states?

#2 reversing policies such as the failed Syrian war he keeps participating in

#3 most of his judicial appointments are just yes men that'll let him do what he wants.

#4 he cut taxes on the rich. Not you, you now pay more in taxes than someone with 50 times the amount of money you have.

#5 the dishonest news media, huh. Were they dishonest when they reported that he told people to inject lysol, because i remember you all saying he was taken out of context before he admitted that that was what he said, making you and the other 40% of America who supports this clown look like bigger jokers than he is. And better job? 65,000 Americans died after he delayed testing, confiscated medical supplies and lied and said COVID was "just the flu." Trump is a terrible president, an adulterer, a sexual molester, a child abuser and a tard that thinks windmill sounds cause cancer. Literally nobody is impressed with the biggest embarrassment America ever suffered. Outside your little bubble most people hate Trump, and I can see why considering he's the creep who talked about throwing a pregnant woman down a flight of stairs to cause a miscarriage. You voted for an idiot, and now people are dying because of the selfish and incompetent choice you made in November of 2016. Thanks alot for making America a failed state again.

Couldn't have said it better. It sucks that the candidates from both major parties don't seem to have their shit together.