MAGAThread XIX: Hambergers, Noble Prizes, & Disinfectant

[Nobel Hobos 2]

Will John McCain get a statue?

Loser. Also he wouldn't make a good statue. Mitch O'Connell, four times life size!

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

Will John McCain get a statue?

Loser. Also he wouldn't make a good statue. Mitch O'Connell, four times life size!

Please... we already got that monument to treason... we don't need another one.

[Gravlen]

Jefferson was notorious for raping one of his slaves. What's liberal and progressive about that?

Your evidence?

Pardon the Wikisource, but you can go deeper if you want to:

In the fall of 2001, the National Genealogical Society published a special issue of its quarterly devoted to the Jefferson–Hemings controversy. In several articles, its specialists concluded that, as the genealogist Helen M. Leary wrote, the "chain of evidence": historical, genealogical, and DNA, supported the conclusion that Thomas Jefferson was the father of all of Hemings' children

And

According to her son Madison's memoir, Hemings became pregnant by Jefferson in Paris. She was about 16 at the time.

Hemings was kept as a slave by Jefferson from she was 14 until he died. The slaveholder-slave dynamic makes any relationship between the two non-consensual by definition. (Jefferson kept the six children he fathered as slaves, by the way. Father of the year award is in the mail.)

[Ifreann]

Will John McCain get a statue?

Not if Trump has any say in the matter.

[Gormwood]

Will John McCain get a statue?

Not if Trump has any say in the matter.

He'll put up statues of Eddie Gallagher and Clint Lorace instead.

[Ifreann]

Not if Trump has any say in the matter.

He'll put up statues of Eddie Gallagher and Clint Lorace instead.

Maybe a generic statue to the American Pardoned War Criminal.

[Valrifell]

The 4th is mediocre all things considered.

Figures.

No presents or aesthetic like Christmas and no candy like Halloween, no feast like Thanksgiving. Just fireworks and a barbeque, which I can do anytime.

[The Black Forrest]

Your evidence?

Pardon the Wikisource, but you can go deeper if you want to:

In the fall of 2001, the National Genealogical Society published a special issue of its quarterly devoted to the Jefferson–Hemings controversy. In several articles, its specialists concluded that, as the genealogist Helen M. Leary wrote, the "chain of evidence": historical, genealogical, and DNA, supported the conclusion that Thomas Jefferson was the father of all of Hemings' children

And

According to her son Madison's memoir, Hemings became pregnant by Jefferson in Paris. She was about 16 at the time.

Hemings was kept as a slave by Jefferson from she was 14 until he died. The slaveholder-slave dynamic makes any relationship between the two non-consensual by definition. (Jefferson kept the six children he fathered as slaves, by the way. Father of the year award is in the mail.)

No one is denying he had sex with her and fathered children.

The fact she was 16 isn't really a relevant argument. When the North American colonies were being established, they adopted from Britain using the age of 10 as an appropriate cutoff. Many states still had it going up to the civil war where they decided 12 was more appropriate.

As to forced to be a slave. Sure. She also had a chance of freedom in Paris. Jefferson paid her a salary and she bargained for greater privileges to return. From the little I read; he honored the agreement.

It's the claim of rape that is questioned. There are no correspondence which hints of it. There isn't any Hemmings family lore about it. We don't know what their relationship was like. We may never know.

[Ifreann]

Pardon the Wikisource, but you can go deeper if you want to:

In the fall of 2001, the National Genealogical Society published a special issue of its quarterly devoted to the Jefferson–Hemings controversy. In several articles, its specialists concluded that, as the genealogist Helen M. Leary wrote, the "chain of evidence": historical, genealogical, and DNA, supported the conclusion that Thomas Jefferson was the father of all of Hemings' children

And

According to her son Madison's memoir, Hemings became pregnant by Jefferson in Paris. She was about 16 at the time.

Hemings was kept as a slave by Jefferson from she was 14 until he died. The slaveholder-slave dynamic makes any relationship between the two non-consensual by definition. (Jefferson kept the six children he fathered as slaves, by the way. Father of the year award is in the mail.)

No one is denying he had sex with her and fathered children.

The fact she was 16 isn't really a relevant argument. When the North American colonies were being established, they adopted from Britain using the age of 10 as an appropriate cutoff. Many states still had it going up to the civil war where they decided 12 was more appropriate.

As to forced to be a slave. Sure. She also had a chance of freedom in Paris. Jefferson paid her a salary and she bargained for greater privileges to return. From the little I read; he honored the agreement.

It's the claim of rape that is questioned. There are no correspondence which hints of it. There isn't any Hemmings family lore about it. We don't know what their relationship was like. We may never know.

It doesn't really seem possible for there to be a consensual sexual relationship between a child slave and her owner.

[Nobel Hobos 2]

Pardon the Wikisource, but you can go deeper if you want to:

In the fall of 2001, the National Genealogical Society published a special issue of its quarterly devoted to the Jefferson–Hemings controversy. In several articles, its specialists concluded that, as the genealogist Helen M. Leary wrote, the "chain of evidence": historical, genealogical, and DNA, supported the conclusion that Thomas Jefferson was the father of all of Hemings' children

And

According to her son Madison's memoir, Hemings became pregnant by Jefferson in Paris. She was about 16 at the time.

Hemings was kept as a slave by Jefferson from she was 14 until he died. The slaveholder-slave dynamic makes any relationship between the two non-consensual by definition. (Jefferson kept the six children he fathered as slaves, by the way. Father of the year award is in the mail.)

No one is denying he had sex with her and fathered children.

The fact she was 16 isn't really a relevant argument. When the North American colonies were being established, they adopted from Britain using the age of 10 as an appropriate cutoff. Many states still had it going up to the civil war where they decided 12 was more appropriate.

As to forced to be a slave. Sure. She also had a chance of freedom in Paris. Jefferson paid her a salary and she bargained for greater privileges to return. From the little I read; he honored the agreement.

It's the claim of rape that is questioned. There are no correspondence which hints of it. There isn't any Hemmings family lore about it. We don't know what their relationship was like. We may never know.

Well it's probably the modern interpretation of rape. People who are too young OR are in a distinctly inferior position to the offender, are presumed incapable of giving informed consent. Being both too young AND being a slave really does not comply with modern ideas.

Now I don't think being a 'retrospective offender' justifies tearing down statues. But it should be common knowledge, and it should be taught in school, to knock some edges of the nationalistic reverence such people are held in.

If for no other reason than to instill pride in the progress we have made.

[Nobel Hobos 2]

No one is denying he had sex with her and fathered children.

The fact she was 16 isn't really a relevant argument. When the North American colonies were being established, they adopted from Britain using the age of 10 as an appropriate cutoff. Many states still had it going up to the civil war where they decided 12 was more appropriate.

As to forced to be a slave. Sure. She also had a chance of freedom in Paris. Jefferson paid her a salary and she bargained for greater privileges to return. From the little I read; he honored the agreement.

It's the claim of rape that is questioned. There are no correspondence which hints of it. There isn't any Hemmings family lore about it. We don't know what their relationship was like. We may never know.

It doesn't really seem possible for there to be a consensual sexual relationship between a child slave and her owner.

I suggest that consent is a modern concept. It's a modern standard which people in the future might find inadequate.

For instance, imagine that in the future everyone has all that they need. Perhaps they work to get a bit more, that's fine, but the concept that someone would have sex work as their best option to feed and house themselves would be abhorrent. They would probably say that prostitutes were not freely consenting.

[The Black Forrest]

No one is denying he had sex with her and fathered children.

The fact she was 16 isn't really a relevant argument. When the North American colonies were being established, they adopted from Britain using the age of 10 as an appropriate cutoff. Many states still had it going up to the civil war where they decided 12 was more appropriate.

As to forced to be a slave. Sure. She also had a chance of freedom in Paris. Jefferson paid her a salary and she bargained for greater privileges to return. From the little I read; he honored the agreement.

It's the claim of rape that is questioned. There are no correspondence which hints of it. There isn't any Hemmings family lore about it. We don't know what their relationship was like. We may never know.

It doesn't really seem possible for there to be a consensual sexual relationship between a child slave and her owner.

I am not dismissing that possibility either. We just don't know. It could be he simply loved her. I believe the Hemmings family has said that.

[Gravlen]

Pardon the Wikisource, but you can go deeper if you want to:

In the fall of 2001, the National Genealogical Society published a special issue of its quarterly devoted to the Jefferson–Hemings controversy. In several articles, its specialists concluded that, as the genealogist Helen M. Leary wrote, the "chain of evidence": historical, genealogical, and DNA, supported the conclusion that Thomas Jefferson was the father of all of Hemings' children

And

According to her son Madison's memoir, Hemings became pregnant by Jefferson in Paris. She was about 16 at the time.

Hemings was kept as a slave by Jefferson from she was 14 until he died. The slaveholder-slave dynamic makes any relationship between the two non-consensual by definition. (Jefferson kept the six children he fathered as slaves, by the way. Father of the year award is in the mail.)

No one is denying he had sex with her and fathered children.

The fact she was 16 isn't really a relevant argument. When the North American colonies were being established, they adopted from Britain using the age of 10 as an appropriate cutoff. Many states still had it going up to the civil war where they decided 12 was more appropriate.

As to forced to be a slave. Sure. She also had a chance of freedom in Paris. Jefferson paid her a salary and she bargained for greater privileges to return. From the little I read; he honored the agreement.

It's the claim of rape that is questioned. There are no correspondence which hints of it. There isn't any Hemmings family lore about it. We don't know what their relationship was like. We may never know.

I disagree. We know, because we know she was his slave and he fathered her children. In that kind of relationship. all sexual intercourse is rape.

[Ifreann]

It doesn't really seem possible for there to be a consensual sexual relationship between a child slave and her owner.

I am not dismissing that possibility either. We just don't know. It could be he simply loved her. I believe the Hemmings family has said that.

The feelings of the perpetrator are not particularly relevant.

[The Black Forrest]

No one is denying he had sex with her and fathered children.

The fact she was 16 isn't really a relevant argument. When the North American colonies were being established, they adopted from Britain using the age of 10 as an appropriate cutoff. Many states still had it going up to the civil war where they decided 12 was more appropriate.

As to forced to be a slave. Sure. She also had a chance of freedom in Paris. Jefferson paid her a salary and she bargained for greater privileges to return. From the little I read; he honored the agreement.

It's the claim of rape that is questioned. There are no correspondence which hints of it. There isn't any Hemmings family lore about it. We don't know what their relationship was like. We may never know.

Well it's probably the modern interpretation of rape. People who are too young OR are in a distinctly inferior position to the offender, are presumed incapable of giving informed consent. Being both too young AND being a slave really does not comply with modern ideas.

Exactly. To suggest the age of consent should be ten now would get you rather hard looks if not assaulted.

Now I don't think being a 'retrospective offender' justifies tearing down statues. But it should be common knowledge, and it should be taught in school, to knock some edges of the nationalistic reverence such people are held in.

If for no other reason than to instill pride in the progress we have made.

Indeed. Use it as a teaching tool. Yes he did great things. He also did shitty things. He was human......

[The Black Forrest]

I am not dismissing that possibility either. We just don't know. It could be he simply loved her. I believe the Hemmings family has said that.

The feelings of the perpetrator are not particularly relevant.

Assumption of rape doesn't make it fact either.

[Centai Mal]

It doesn't really seem possible for there to be a consensual sexual relationship between a child slave and her owner.

I am not dismissing that possibility either. We just don't know. It could be he simply loved her. I believe the Hemmings family has said that.

If you love someone, you don’t keep them as slaves. He 100% could have freed her a chose not to

[Rojava Free State]

Well it's probably the modern interpretation of rape. People who are too young OR are in a distinctly inferior position to the offender, are presumed incapable of giving informed consent. Being both too young AND being a slave really does not comply with modern ideas.

Exactly. To suggest the age of consent should be ten now would get you rather hard looks if not assaulted.

Now I don't think being a 'retrospective offender' justifies tearing down statues. But it should be common knowledge, and it should be taught in school, to knock some edges of the nationalistic reverence such people are held in.

If for no other reason than to instill pride in the progress we have made.

Indeed. Use it as a teaching tool. Yes he did great things. He also did shitty things. He was human......

T Jeff was kind of a sleazebag even if he was a founding father.

[The Black Forrest]

I am not dismissing that possibility either. We just don't know. It could be he simply loved her. I believe the Hemmings family has said that.

If you love someone, you don’t keep them as slaves. He 100% could have freed her a chose not to

And she had her chance for freedom in France; why didn't she take it?

[Nobel Hobos 2]

I am not dismissing that possibility either. We just don't know. It could be he simply loved her. I believe the Hemmings family has said that.

If you love someone, you don’t keep them as slaves. He 100% could have freed her a chose not to

As a black female of the time, her prospects of living an independent life would be miserable. She would likely have stayed with him as a poorly-paid servant. There's not much difference between that and being an actual slave, is there?

[Ifreann]

The feelings of the perpetrator are not particularly relevant.

Assumption of rape doesn't make it fact either.

So why did you speculate about Jefferson's feelings for Hemmings?

[Rojava Free State]

If you love someone, you don’t keep them as slaves. He 100% could have freed her a chose not to

And she had her chance for freedom in France; why didn't she take it?

Where would she go? She was totally dependent on him because she was a slave and wasn't given any opportunity to truly live on her own.

[Nobel Hobos 2]

If you love someone, you don’t keep them as slaves. He 100% could have freed her a chose not to

And she had her chance for freedom in France; why didn't she take it?

Not speaking French might be a factor?

[Centai Mal]

If you love someone, you don’t keep them as slaves. He 100% could have freed her a chose not to

And she had her chance for freedom in France; why didn't she take it?

We might never know, but I’m going to guess something to do with the fact that the unknown is terrifying, especially if you have been groomed to stay with an abuser - you see it in victims of domestic abuse today, who stay with their partners out of a sense of “even if this is terrible, it can’t get any better”

[The Black Forrest]

Assumption of rape doesn't make it fact either.

So why did you speculate about Jefferson's feelings for Hemmings?

I wasn't actually. It was the Hemmings family who stated that. We don't know what their relationship was like.