MAGAThread XIX: Hambergers, Noble Prizes, & Disinfectant

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

You cannot join Antifa. Antifa is a mode of action, not an organisation. ‘Antifa’ involves education, online action, poster removal, demonstrations, deplatforming, and yes, sometimes violent action against fascist. Taking violent action against fascists is, in my opinion, necessary, because fascists don’t play the same game as other political groups do. Some people have done unhelpful things under the guise of antifascist action, for sure, but it does not help to disown every part of antfascist action just because of that.

Why does fascists don't play the same game as other political groups do? What do you mean by that? So long as they peacefully parade around, they are expressing their opinions under the First Amendment. The ACLU fought for the Nazis' right to march in Skokie in 1978, despite it being a very controversial stand. All Americans are entitled to their right to free speech, even Nazis. Because when you put the power to censor into the hands of politicians (or hateful mobs), they will start censoring opinions they don't like. That's a dangerous road that you will go down.

You know the actual Nazis threw people in gas chambers for expressing a different opinion right?

[Ifreann]

Same way it works with movements like the Taliban.

We going to drone strike America? Or are we going to get involved in a hopeless struggle against Antifa that ultimately sees us negotiating with them and including them in the new government?

And all it will cost is trillions of dollars and thousands of lives.

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

You cannot join Antifa. Antifa is a mode of action, not an organisation. ‘Antifa’ involves education, online action, poster removal, demonstrations, deplatforming, and yes, sometimes violent action against fascist. Taking violent action against fascists is, in my opinion, necessary, because fascists don’t play the same game as other political groups do. Some people have done unhelpful things under the guise of antifascist action, for sure, but it does not help to disown every part of antfascist action just because of that.

Why does fascists don't play the same game as other political groups do? What do you mean by that? So long as they peacefully parade around, they are expressing their opinions under the First Amendment. The ACLU fought for the Nazis' right to march in Skokie in 1978, despite it being a very controversial stand. All Americans are entitled to their right to free speech, even Nazis. Because when you put the power to censor into the hands of politicians (or hateful mobs), they will start censoring opinions they don't like. That's a dangerous road that you will go down.

Yeah, you should not put the power to censor into the hands of politicians. Because they will turn around and use it against you when the cards shift. But antifa, an antifascist group, will only ever use it against fascists. I'm also not saying it should be legal. It could still be illegal, but that does not mean it should not be done, and that there isn't a righteous cause behind it.

See, all arguments about censoring Nazis boils down to 'but what if they did it to us?'. No-one is actually defending the free speech of Nazis, everyone is defending their own free speech, and thinking that by defending Nazi speech you defend your own. But that is not actually what is happening. If you defend Nazi speech, Nazi speech will do its damnest to take away your speech first. Nazis are not actually engaging in good faith debate, they are constantly trying to inject lies and hatred into any discussion. They are trying to dislodge society in such a manner that their hateful views become acceptable, and that should not be allowed to happen.

There is no way for a Nazi parade to be peaceful. That's only possible if you're not in their direct crosshairs. A 'peaceful parade' by Nazis through a black neighbourhood is an act of violence, it shows that the police will not stop them and that they can march in any time. Yes, antifa uses violence against them, and yes, in the context of what Naziism is and what fascism is, that is the morally right thing to do.

[The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp]

Aw yeah its cross post time

https://imgur.com/gallery/UyBP9bT

Interesting article. It's about how Trump has handled things.

[Aclion]

It's impossible to know if the riots would have happened without them. But we do know that there is a sophisticated effort by out of state actors to use rioting to hijack what was a largely peaceful protest.

It's impossible to know, so you're just going ahead and blaming them anyway.
Yeah, that seems about on-brand for you.

It's impossible to know if the riots would have happened without them. But we do know that there is a sophisticated effort by out of state actors to use rioting to hijack what was a largely peaceful protest.

Impossible to know, you say?? Better ban them and prosecute them then! You know what they say, better safe than rule of law'ed.

You're conflating two different things. Whether the rioting would have happened without deliberate triggering and whether it was triggered.
We can't know the former, but have ample evidence of the latter, from video of people breaking open stores ahead of crowds only to walk away, to supply drops of bricks left in from on target buildings, to the presence of outside agitators.
Next step is to identify where the people we've already arrested organized so that we can also arrest and prosecute their co-conspirators, infiltrate their groups and cripple their ability to further function.

[Picairn]

You know the actual Nazis threw people in gas chambers for expressing a different opinion right?

Have you seen the Nazis throwing Jews into gas chambers in America? Also, there is a huge difference between goofing around in a parade and committing genocide, the latter I believe is not covered under the First Amendment.

[Juristonia]

You know the actual Nazis threw people in gas chambers for expressing a different opinion right?

Have you seen the Nazis throwing Jews into gas chambers in America? Also, there is a huge difference between goofing around in a parade and committing genocide, the latter I believe is not covered under the First Amendment.

Did you see Nazis throwing Jews in to gas chambers before they got in to power? No. Were the Nazis taken particularly seriously before they came in to power? Also no.
I'd think quite a few people would prefer to nip the little bastards in the butt before they got any real influence again, since that ended up kinda poorly last time.
They didn't start out as full blown holocausting arseholes. They had a wee bit of a build up to it.

[Valrifell]

Looks like Trump wasn't such a strongman after all and spent Friday night cowering in the bunker.

I like dunking on Trump as much as the next everyone, but it’s the secret service that decides when to go to the bunker.

Trump should just sit quietly in the Oval Office and let the White House burn down around him smh.

[Picairn]

Yeah, you should not put the power to censor into the hands of politicians. Because they will turn around and use it against you when the cards shift. But antifa, an antifascist group, will only ever use it against fascists. I'm also not saying it should be legal. It could still be illegal, but that does not mean it should not be done, and that there isn't a righteous cause behind it.

See, all arguments about censoring Nazis boils down to 'but what if they did it to us?'. No-one is actually defending the free speech of Nazis, everyone is defending their own free speech, and thinking that by defending Nazi speech you defend your own. But that is not actually what is happening. If you defend Nazi speech, Nazi speech will do its damnest to take away your speech first. Nazis are not actually engaging in good faith debate, they are constantly trying to inject lies and hatred into any discussion. They are trying to dislodge society in such a manner that their hateful views become acceptable, and that should not be allowed to happen.

There is no way for a Nazi parade to be peaceful. That's only possible if you're not in their direct crosshairs. A 'peaceful parade' by Nazis through a black neighbourhood is an act of violence, it shows that the police will not stop them and that they can march in any time. Yes, antifa uses violence against them, and yes, in the context of what Naziism is and what fascism is, that is the morally right thing to do.

"But antifa, an antifascist group, will only ever use it against fascists." Who decide who is a Nazi and whatnot? How can we ensure they are not beating up falsely framed right-wing conservatives? And since when it is justified to hit people for expressing opinions? If the Nazis haven't committed any crimes, they are entitled to free speech just as much as anyone. It isn't "a righteous cause" to hit people for expressing different opinions, no matter how hateful and disgusting they may be.

By allowing them to express their hateful views, we are actually exposing their nature. The US and the world have seen how terrible they are through their hateful acts. Censoring them will only create a slippery slope down a dangerous road, the same road that I warned earlier. If they inject lies and hateful words into the discussion, refute them. I am utterly baffled at the notion of disproportionate revenge, beating up people in exchange for words (hateful words are still just that, words).

Is it a morally right thing to hit people for expressing their opinions? As I said, so long as the Nazis only make a fool of themselves by *peacefully* marching, they are protected under the First Amendment. Do anything outside peaceful march and all rights are voided, since they violated other people's rights. I believe in due process, not arresting people for a crime they "potentially" may commit in the future.

[Picairn]

Did you see Nazis throwing Jews in to gas chambers before they got in to power? No. Were the Nazis taken particularly seriously before they came in to power? Also no.
I'd think quite a few people would prefer to nip the little bastards in the butt before they got any real influence again, since that ended up kinda poorly last time.
They didn't start out as full blown holocausting arseholes. They had a wee bit of a build up to it.

And have you ever asked yourself why they had such a massive buildup, from a small party in the 1920s to the dominant party in 1933? They had massive support from the people. Ask yourself if the majority of Americans support the Nazis and fascism today.

[The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp]

Remember that dam breaking in Michigan? Trump still hasn't provided relief for it yet.

[Washington Resistance Army]

But antifa, an antifascist group, will only ever use it against fascists.

A demonstrably false statement given all the times they've fucked with anyone right of center, and even attacked liberals and left leaning types who don't agree with them too.

[Knask]

Did you see Nazis throwing Jews in to gas chambers before they got in to power? No. Were the Nazis taken particularly seriously before they came in to power? Also no.
I'd think quite a few people would prefer to nip the little bastards in the butt before they got any real influence again, since that ended up kinda poorly last time.
They didn't start out as full blown holocausting arseholes. They had a wee bit of a build up to it.

And have you ever asked yourself why they had such a massive buildup, from a small party in the 1920s to the dominant party in 1933? They had massive support from the people. Ask yourself if the majority of Americans support the Nazis and fascism today.

About 30% support them, as long as you avoid using the term "nazi" and only describe their policies.

Luckily, that's vastly different from when the Nazis took power in Germany. After all, they got 18.3% of the vote in 1930 and 37.3% of the vote in 1932 so not even comparable.

[The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp]

Poll round up time!

Poltico Biden notches 10-point lead over Trump

Disapproval rating higher then normal during riots

[Zurkerx]

Remember that dam breaking in Minnesota? Trump still hasn't provided relief for it yet.

Michigan, not Minnesota.

[The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp]

Remember that dam breaking in Minnesota? Trump still hasn't provided relief for it yet.

Michigan, not Minnesota.

Oh, right. I did a derp sorry.

[Picairn]

About 30% support them, as long as you avoid using the term "nazi" and only describe their policies.

Luckily, that's vastly different from when the Nazis took power in Germany. After all, they got 18.3% of the vote in 1930 and 37.3% of the vote in 1932 so not even comparable.

Source for the 30% support?

[Aclion]

Michigan, not Minnesota.

Oh, right. I did a derp sorry.

Appropriate username is appropriate.

[Bear Stearns]

Antifa? I'm against Antifa, but labeling them as a terrorist organization is basically giving them too much credit. Burning dumpsters and hitting people can't be compared to blowing up cars in markets or 9/11.

You're against antifascist action?

LOL give me a break

Antifa is about as anti-fascist as North Korea is for the people and democratic. It's surely just a coincidence that the group is almost entirely made up of violent communists and is directly inspired by a violent 1930s German communist party, right?

[Bear Stearns]

The organization has morphed into something worse. Framing people as Nazis and beating them up? Terrible, doesn't do anything but increasing the tension. Remember that professor who joined Antifa and beat people with a bike lock? He was fired, I believe.

You cannot join Antifa. Antifa is a mode of action, not an organisation. ‘Antifa’ involves education, online action, poster removal, demonstrations, deplatforming, and yes, sometimes violent action against fascist. Taking violent action against fascists is, in my opinion, necessary, because fascists don’t play the same game as other political groups do. Some people have done unhelpful things under the guise of antifascist action, for sure, but it does not help to disown every part of antfascist action just because of that.

"ANITFA isn't an organization" - that's why they operate in coordinated movements organized on social media and through Discord right? That's why they are very strict about concealing their identities using symbolism to identifying who is them and who is not, right? That's why they have pretty strict vetting processes about letting people join in, huh? Give me a break.

[Bear Stearns]

Yeah, you should not put the power to censor into the hands of politicians. Because they will turn around and use it against you when the cards shift. But antifa, an antifascist group, will only ever use it against fascists.

Again, LOL

This is such bullshit and you know it. Antifa considers everyone who isn't them to be fascist and attacks innocent people. Stop providing cover to terrorists.

[Gravlen]

You're against antifascist action?

LOL give me a break

Antifa is about as anti-fascist as North Korea is for the people and democratic. It's surely just a coincidence that the group is almost entirely made up of violent communists and is directly inspired by a violent 1930s German communist party, right?

None of this contradict the idea that AntiFa is anti-fascist...

[Bear Stearns]

LOL give me a break

Antifa is about as anti-fascist as North Korea is for the people and democratic. It's surely just a coincidence that the group is almost entirely made up of violent communists and is directly inspired by a violent 1930s German communist party, right?

None of this contradict the idea that AntiFa is anti-fascist...

Well, for one, it's pretty fucking rich for communists to claim any sort of moral high ground, let alone against fascists.

And...Antifa has a demonstrated history of playing fast and loose with the definition of fascism and using that to attack innocent people (ignoring the ridiculous assumption that it's okay to attack people because of their views), so again, fuck them.

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

What does a banker know about defending his patria against genocidal tyranny? A patria his species inherently hates?

[Bear Stearns]

What does a banker know about defending his patria against genocidal tyranny? A patria his species inherently hates?

lol nice cope